Killing Civilians

[Vaporpunk]

Just curious as to how people approach this, or if they have even thought of it.

I generally try to avoid killing civilians. I know it doesn't matter as far as game play is concerned, but for some reason I often avoid killing them even when it would massively be to my benefit. I kind of RP that we're trying to win over the civilian population, as any good guerrilla movement should, and not kill them. So I'm careful with area damage. Am I the only idiot that plays this way?

If there is a similar mechanic in XCOM 3, do you think killing civilian bystanders should be punished by Bradford & Co?

[† Bayonetta †]

You lose income if you kill civs ofc, but if you want you can kill all of them... Nothing will happend. And to be honest Xcom 3 shouldnt change that much because world is in crisis and if only solution is Xcom well they cant pay much attention to minor problems such as civ's death in action, ♥♥♥♥ happens that sort of thing.

[Vaporpunk]

Originally posted by ♰ Bayonetta ♰:

You lose income if you kill civs ofc, but if you want you can kill all of them... Nothing will happend. And to be honest Xcom 3 shouldnt change that much because world is in crisis and if only solution is Xcom well they cant pay much attention to minor problems such as civ's death in action, ♥♥♥♥ happens that sort of thing.

Just to be clear, I wasn't talking about the retaliation missions where you are trying to save the civilians. I'm talking about the regular missions (especially city maps) where they're running around and getting in the way. AND even alerting Advent (breaking your concealment) if they spot you. They are technically your enemies but still, they are unarmed civilians. I try to avoid launching grenades and rockets, etc, when a civvie might be a killed, just because we're supposed to be the good guys. It makes the game a wee bit harder sometimes but I like to pretend (for lack of a better word) that I have an ethical obligation to not slaughter unarmed people. I know it's just a game, but still...

[KRON]

In regular missions civilians are an annoyance and possibly faceless. I'm not losing my sleep over blowing up civilians when they happen to be in a blast radius with a bunch of aliens in it.

[† Bayonetta †]

Originally posted by Vaporpunk:

Originally posted by ♰ Bayonetta ♰:

You lose income if you kill civs ofc, but if you want you can kill all of them... Nothing will happend. And to be honest Xcom 3 shouldnt change that much because world is in crisis and if only solution is Xcom well they cant pay much attention to minor problems such as civ's death in action, ♥♥♥♥ happens that sort of thing.

Just to be clear, I wasn't talking about the retaliation missions where you are trying to save the civilians. I'm talking about the regular missions (especially city maps) where they're running around and getting in the way. AND even alerting Advent (breaking your concealment) if they spot you. They are technically your enemies but still, they are unarmed civilians. I try to avoid launching grenades and rockets, etc, when a civvie might be a killed, just because we're supposed to be the good guys. It makes the game a wee bit harder sometimes but I like to pretend (for lack of a better word) that I have an ethical obligation to not slaughter unarmed people. I know it's just a game, but still...

Ofc you dont; you dont even get the chance to kill them they often run away, and they act like enemies because they believe that Advents are friends, in game 3 we wont see that probably, still just like soliders civilians in war die, but you have to aim for them which you probably wont do and i think that you dont get any punishment from killing them; good touch. And tbh. i feel like civilian kills should get some punishments in a long run (lower respect or more vision for enemies, traitors and all that can be added but player is not warned about so its sudden and unnoticeable) but not in game 2 because again they are in your way to save the world.

But what if you lose or dont get any EXP (for soliders who caused civ to die). That would be something, or maybe trauma that needs to be fixed (not for all soliders) so adding traits to the game like merciful and to be countered by merculess, and planty more thoes 2 just for an example. That feel no guilt, while merciful has more buffs to not kill the target and pacify it and debuffs to resist killing enemy, while merciless gets more dmg for deathblow and all traits you get you level them up. Can be fixed or left unfixed merciless for example at lvl 3/4 whatever (final level) gets 20% chance to execute teammate that is useless or shooting them for panicking or missing shots and all that c**p that can mess up the team, while dealing 50% more dmg for his deathblow or is awarded with one/two actions after killing someone including civs but with punishment. Or maybe trait that boosts moral if you crit but unboosts moral if you miss and thoes small tweaks cound help game to feel even less repetitive. Out of your question but i often run around like that; Sorry!
(simply put; cant wait to see what news Xcom 3 will bring us)

[red255]

sheeple are already lost.

[Vaporpunk]

Originally posted by KRON:

In regular missions civilians are an annoyance and possibly faceless. I'm not losing my sleep over blowing up civilians when they happen to be in a blast radius with a bunch of aliens in it.

Obviously, I'm not losing any sleep over it either, it's just 0s and 1s and completely imaginary. I have killed civilians in the game when it's one of my guys life that depends on it but I do try consciously not to. Like I said, kind of RPing being the good guys and "house-ruling" that I shouldn't. Just curious to see if anyone else does and if they think there should be a punishment, maybe, in XCOM 3 (if it's applicable).

Originally posted by ♰ Bayonetta ♰:

Ofc you dont; you dont even get the chance to kill them they often run away, and they act like enemies because they believe that Advents are friends, in game 3 we wont see that probably, still just like soliders civilians in war die, but you have to aim for them which you probably wont do and i think that you dont get any punishment from killing them; good touch. And tbh. i feel like civilian kills should get some punishments in a long run (lower respect or more vision for enemies, traitors and all that can be added but player is not warned about so its sudden and unnoticeable) but not in game 2 because again they are in your way to save the world.

But what if you lose or dont get any EXP (for soliders who caused civ to die). That would be something, or maybe trauma that needs to be fixed (not for all soliders) so adding traits to the game like merciful and to be countered by merculess, and planty more thoes 2 just for an example. That feel no guilt, while merciful has more buffs to not kill the target and pacify it and debuffs to resist killing enemy, while merciless gets more dmg for deathblow and all traits you get you level them up. Can be fixed or left unfixed merciless for example at lvl 3/4 whatever (final level) gets 20% chance to execute teammate that is useless or shooting them for panicking or missing shots and all that c**p that can mess up the team, while dealing 50% more dmg for his deathblow or is awarded with one/two actions after killing someone including civs but with punishment. Or maybe trait that boosts moral if you crit but unboosts moral if you miss and thoes small tweaks cound help game to feel even less repetitive. Out of your question but i often run around like that; Sorry!
(simply put; cant wait to see what news Xcom 3 will bring us)

No problem mate, I started this topic to hear from other players and your answer is not out of bounds at all. I like your ideas, at least as a starting point if not more. I think losing Will after killing a civvie, or having Advent target the guilty trooper more in combat, or adding something along the lines of your post would make the game more interesting and add a moral/ethical component that is kind of absent from it. Maybe it doesn't belong in the game, we're fighting for the survival of Earth and the whole human race after all. So ethics be damned.

Maybe what I'm really trying to get at is how much should morality/ethics be considered in a game like this. It's not an RPG but maybe it should incorporate more elements of those games, as in, choices matter? What do you guys think?

We're all waiting for #3, (******* hurry up already Firaxis!) and in the meantime, maybe we can pass some ideas on to the developers by sharing our views. I, speaking for myself only, would love to see repercussions for turning civilian areas into free-fire zones.

[DasaKamov]

Originally posted by red255:

sheeple are already lost.

Just like Tygan? Oh, wait. ;)
Most of humanity sided with the aliens because *not* doing so meant complete genocide (and, sure, there are a few, like the Speaker, who sided with the aliens and Advent because doing so brings them power and privilege).

In terms of playing the role of noble resistance fighters and in-game lore, every civilian is a potential XCOM recruit, spy or support agent - that's actually what the whole "Resistances Contacts" mechanic is about.
It would have been interesting if Firaxis had implemented a "Resistance/Alien Sympathizers" meter, similar to a (bare-bones) mechanic that existed in Red Faction: Guerilla. If XCOM successfully completes missions by avoiding civilian casualties, sympathy for the Resistance increases, and more bonus are available to XCOM (including some civilians spawning as Resistance fighters in future missions). If XCOM applied a scorched-earth policy and butcher scores of civilians every mission, Advent forces are much stronger in future missions to represent increased security and increased recruitment rates.

Of course, it's too late for this game to receive that sort of mechanic, and it's unlikely that a hypothetical XCOM 3 will feature the same "liberation" storyline that XCOM 2 did, but I'm just daydreaming. ;)

[Azure]

If it happens it happens, im not going to miss a chance to take some aliens because a sheeple was just crouching or strolling (get near them and they just walk away... not flee the area) about in a gunfight. There was a mod for vanilla that made it have an impact but i don't think it was ever updated to WotC.

[Amanoob105]

For the ones you need to save, never if it can in anyway be avoided.

For the random ones you find in missions that will reveal you to the enemy? I won't go out of my way to kill them, but I also won't loose any sleep over any that get caught in the crossfire. This is war after all, I'm not trying to win, just be able to claim victory.

That said.... The most I ever had die at once was 4. In an attack done by Julian. They were behind a wall when he was using a shredder on a group of enemies in front of it.
I can't shake the feeling he likely already knew they were there by the way he reacted afterwards.

[† Bayonetta †]

Well Xcom 2 is fighting for survival of mankind and lives shouldnt matter, but Xcom 3 what if we are moveing to their planet (probably not considering ending of Xcom 2 we will see something like Terror of The Deep) But just talking and Civilians also exist on that planet we maybe try to save them from raich of Advent or they are enemies yet again where their lives dont matter as much. But again we are Bad Guys in that case and killing them is just on our agenda wont happend probably.. But since we are defending yet again from ocean civilian lives will matter so addition of moral should be implemented, maybe even brave civilians who will stand and fight with you, imagine killing advent civ from around steals his gun and joins your ranks, but not to kill advent but on side to protect civilians like Selfless Hero after that mission that civilian is rewarded with Promotion and joins Xcom to fight. And gets Trait as i said like Selfless trait that will be focused on sacrafice yourself for saveing civilians and teammates and saveing them (civs) will grant you some rewards, new recruits, more money, maybe more info. on hideouts or something. Like agents, but for killing them, lets say that we have map like Chimera and you have few towns and people start to revolt if you kill civilians leaking your plans, information, sabotageing your covert actions, and even ambushing you with aliens (resistance but enemy resistance can be called Vandals not you have lost, advent, deep (ocean), vandals and civilians as factions and you fight them randomly to fix the Earth still 99% of this wont be in game but who knows. So much that can be done with morale in this upcomeing game. To answer your question; yes i play the game like that too avoiding to kill civs out of satisfaction, but if they are into granade blast radius with Sectopod; well ♥♥♥♥ it...

[Perplex]

If i can i nuke the civilians on any mission that is not a retaliation mission i do it. They are slow, they are in the way and they report me to Advent if they spot me.

[hazrob52]

What Perplex said, plus who do you think joins an outfit like xcom? ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ with nothing to lose. What do you think the aliens do with convicts when they took over? If you are a criminal you can't live in their society. You're on the outer looking to survive, makes sense to join up with other ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and fight back. The back stories of my guys well, not to many boy scouts in my outfit. No offence, you role your game as you like, but I would hate having that goody two shoes crap hardwired into the game. Resistance fighters were rarely noble in real life and the things they had to do would soon knock that out of them. I remember reading the recollection of a member of the french resistance. He was at a small rural train station, down the platform there was a family of jews under guard of a couple of french cops. He knew that they going to a transit camp. He had gun in his pocket, what did you think he did, nothing cos, that was the way things were back then. He had a job to do, and that family was not his mission. Forty years later he's still being eaten by that choice. The resistance movements of that era were full criminals because who else had the balls and the smarts to take on the nazis.

[Vaporpunk]

Originally posted by DasaKamov:

Originally posted by red255:

sheeple are already lost.

Just like Tygan? Oh, wait. ;)
Most of humanity sided with the aliens because *not* doing so meant complete genocide (and, sure, there are a few, like the Speaker, who sided with the aliens and Advent because doing so brings them power and privilege).

In terms of playing the role of noble resistance fighters and in-game lore, every civilian is a potential XCOM recruit, spy or support agent - that's actually what the whole "Resistances Contacts" mechanic is about.
It would have been interesting if Firaxis had implemented a "Resistance/Alien Sympathizers" meter, similar to a (bare-bones) mechanic that existed in Red Faction: Guerilla. If XCOM successfully completes missions by avoiding civilian casualties, sympathy for the Resistance increases, and more bonus are available to XCOM (including some civilians spawning as Resistance fighters in future missions). If XCOM applied a scorched-earth policy and butcher scores of civilians every mission, Advent forces are much stronger in future missions to represent increased security and increased recruitment rates.

Of course, it's too late for this game to receive that sort of mechanic, and it's unlikely that a hypothetical XCOM 3 will feature the same "liberation" storyline that XCOM 2 did, but I'm just daydreaming. ;)

Great post. :) And excellent ideas. You're considering the long-term strategic goals of a guerrilla movement, which Firaxis did not. I also agree that #3 will probably have a different story line but who knows. Would have enjoyed what you suggest for #2 for sure though.

Originally posted by AzureTerra:

If it happens it happens, im not going to miss a chance to take some aliens because a sheeple was just crouching or strolling (get near them and they just walk away... not flee the area) about in a gunfight. There was a mod for vanilla that made it have an impact but i don't think it was ever updated to WotC.

I hear ya. Since there is no penalty for killing them, it makes sense. And the game is hard enough as it is so killing as many aliens as you can at once is actually good tactics. Do you remember the name of the mod?

[Vaporpunk]

Originally posted by Amanoob105:

For the ones you need to save, never if it can in anyway be avoided.

For the random ones you find in missions that will reveal you to the enemy? I won't go out of my way to kill them, but I also won't loose any sleep over any that get caught in the crossfire. This is war after all, I'm not trying to win, just be able to claim victory.

That said.... The most I ever had die at once was 4. In an attack done by Julian. They were behind a wall when he was using a shredder on a group of enemies in front of it.
I can't shake the feeling he likely already knew they were there by the way he reacted afterwards.

Lol, I'm guessing it didn't bother Julian much. :P Never really played with him, I disabled the AH mssions after a couple of run throughs. 1st time I played it I wasn't ready (only had 4 soldiers with starting weapons) and did a lot of save scumming which I normally avoid. Way too hard. I also don't like robots & Sparks in the game, again a personal choice. :)

Originally posted by ♰ Bayonetta ♰:

Well Xcom 2 is fighting for survival of mankind and lives shouldnt matter, but Xcom 3 what if we are moveing to their planet (probably not considering ending of Xcom 2 we will see something like Terror of The Deep) But just talking and Civilians also exist on that planet we maybe try to save them from raich of Advent or they are enemies yet again where their lives dont matter as much. But again we are Bad Guys in that case and killing them is just on our agenda wont happend probably.. But since we are defending yet again from ocean civilian lives will matter so addition of moral should be implemented, maybe even brave civilians who will stand and fight with you, imagine killing advent civ from around steals his gun and joins your ranks, but not to kill advent but on side to protect civilians like Selfless Hero after that mission that civilian is rewarded with Promotion and joins Xcom to fight. And gets Trait as i said like Selfless trait that will be focused on sacrafice yourself for saveing civilians and teammates and saveing them (civs) will grant you some rewards, new recruits, more money, maybe more info. on hideouts or something. Like agents, but for killing them, lets say that we have map like Chimera and you have few towns and people start to revolt if you kill civilians leaking your plans, information, sabotageing your covert actions, and even ambushing you with aliens (resistance but enemy resistance can be called Vandals not you have lost, advent, deep (ocean), vandals and civilians as factions and you fight them randomly to fix the Earth still 99% of this wont be in game but who knows. So much that can be done with morale in this upcomeing game. To answer your question; yes i play the game like that too avoiding to kill civs out of satisfaction, but if they are into granade blast radius with Sectopod; well ♥♥♥♥ it...

Again, some excellent ideas. :) As for Sectopods, I usually Bluescreen them to death or hack them but if there's no choice, bombs away, civvies or not. Hate those buggers.

[Vaporpunk]

Originally posted by thementat:

I always tend to not kill civilians, even on non retaliation missions. The only times I do is if I cannot avoid it, or if there is a high likelihood of a chrysalid taking a bite at them.

Finally, someone who has the same play style as me. ;) I thought I might be the only one... Just curious, do you RP being the "good guys" as well and follow an ethical code of conduct?

Originally posted by Perplex:

If i can i nuke the civilians on any mission that is not a retaliation mission i do it. They are slow, they are in the way and they report me to Advent if they spot me.

Pragmatic and straight to the point. :)

Originally posted by hazrob52:

What Perplex said, plus who do you think joins an outfit like xcom? ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ with nothing to lose. What do you think the aliens do with convicts when they took over? If you are a criminal you can't live in their society. You're on the outer looking to survive, makes sense to join up with other ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and fight back. The back stories of my guys well, not to many boy scouts in my outfit. No offence, you role your game as you like, but I would hate having that goody two shoes crap hardwired into the game. Resistance fighters were rarely noble in real life and the things they had to do would soon knock that out of them. I remember reading the recollection of a member of the french resistance. He was at a small rural train station, down the platform there was a family of jews under guard of a couple of french cops. He knew that they going to a transit camp. He had gun in his pocket, what did you think he did, nothing cos, that was the way things were back then. He had a job to do, and that family was not his mission. Forty years later he's still being eaten by that choice. The resistance movements of that era were full criminals because who else had the balls and the smarts to take on the nazis.

Well said mate, I never really considered the background of my troopers when playing this way. You raise an excellent point. Maybe in my next run through I'll RP letting a couple of my soldiers be bad-asses who just don't care and disobey my ethical code. Might be fun.

And no offense taken at all, maybe you're right and there is no place for ethics in the XCOM "universe" and it shouldn't be considered at all by the designers. The stakes are pretty f****** high after all. I just think it would add another interesting layer to the game. You disagree, and raise valid reasons why you do. No worries.

I like the story you told at the end there about the resistance fighter, it reveals the tough choices that people have to make in wartime and the psychological costs. Cheers. :)