Guardian vs Ever Vigilant

[ThunderGr]

No matter what, I cannot get myself to take Guardian. 50% to have a second reaction shot if the first one hits is too random for me. Does anyone actually prefer Guardian?

[Albino Noodle]

I'd take guardian too, you need some love from the rng gods but when your support gets 4 shots at a group and kills 3 of them in overwatch you feel pretty golden.

At least I suspect you do, I was never that lucky.

[ThunderGr]

Oprindeligt skrevet af asdf:

Why would I need to dash and overwatch in the same turn? I struggle to think of the situations where I would want to do that.

At the beginning of a mission with concelment, it is natural to use both actions for movement. Also, using both actions for movement does not mean that you dash.

Example: You need to move to unexplored area. You pick your specialist with ever vigilant and make a blue move ahead, for scouting. If no pod is activated, you proceed as normal. If a pod is activated, you fall back to your previous location. Most likely, all your squad is out of alien sight and you can put all of them on overwatch, including the specialist because of ever vigilant.

Example 2: While in firefight another pod is activated and your specialist is caught at the frontline(not the best spot for a specialist) and/or flanked. You dash him back to full cover and he still retains the overwatch to keep enemies checked, giving you more options to organize the troops.

Example 3: You have managed to get rid of almost all enemies in a pod but there is one standing and your specialist is too far to get him or he can't get a decent shot at him. You dash the specialist to flanking position and he automatically gets on overwatch, essentially disabling the remaining enemy(especially if you have picked covering fire, like I do).

Lancers tend to target Specialists, whenever they get the chance, for some reason. Dashing the specialist away from the lancer(s) while retaining the opportunity to overwatch during the lance's dash has saved the day more often than not.

[Basilisk]

Why would I want to use all my specialist's actions on movement just to get an overwatch shot? That is only helpful during the early turns of a mission, and in addition to that you need to have Aliens run into you.
With Guardian, I equip my specialist with expanded magazine and superiour aim PCS, so that he has over 100% guaranteed hits on Overwatches. One time I had a specialist hit 4 Overwatches in a row.

[LORDDEREX (Beta)]

got once, 4 shots with 1 unit thx to that skill, that time so worth it,

[Jester]

Had a guardian on my Ranger, I gave him the Superior expended clip, that's 7 shots. In one turn he emptied the fully loaded shotgun and performed 2 bladestorm to boot.

[Kismette]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Jester:

Had a guardian on my Ranger, I gave him the Superior expended clip, that's 7 shots. In one turn he emptied the fully loaded shotgun and performed 2 bladestorm to boot.

Holy crap! 7?! I found Ever Vigilant useful because its an auto overwatch everytime after I've moved and either used heal/reload/hack afterwards, which is helpful to me especially when my specialists get hit with that Codex's ......cheap attack. But maybe Guardian IS better overall.

[Rune]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Landwalker04:

Many, many people prefer Guardian.

I can find a decent case to made one way or another, but 50% is pretty good odds. It also seems to apply even if you miss the shot, as long as you have a Stock on the weapon, and since all of my Specialists tend to carry Stocks, that's handy.

If you're mathematically-minded, that means that even for Stockless Specialists, the average expected number of Overwatch shots taken is basically 1+(Hit Percentage). So if your Overwatch shot has an 80% chance to hit, for example (and if it's that high, then good for you!), having Guardian means an average of 1.8 shots fired.

If you have a Stock, the average number of overwatch shots fired will always be 2. And hey, two overwatch shots is a nice thing to have, even if you're only doing Superior Stock damage.

Guardian can make for some very nice concealment ambushes.

Sorry for resurrecting this post, but I found it useful, and I have a small correction. The 1+(hit chance) only works if assuming infinite ammunition.
https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sum+%28%280.5^n%29*n%29,+n%3D1+to+infinity
Assuming 100% hit chance and infinite ammo does indeed converge at 2.

However, assuming 4 ammo, even with 100% accuracy, you'll only see 1.875 shots on average.

[Sovereigndrake]

I have never actually had any use for ever vigilant (and Aim or Deep Cover for that matter) after concealment breaks...

[JaegerBane]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Froggit:

Why would I want to use all my specialist's actions on movement just to get an overwatch shot? That is only helpful during the early turns of a mission, and in addition to that you need to have Aliens run into you.

That's not how you should be using Ever Vigilant. The purpose is to allow you to spend all your actions on movement and still get an overwatch shot (which on a specialist, is what you should be doing most of the time - Specialists are a very reactive class, if you have few/no opponents on screen and no-one is injured, then the majority of the time they're either going to be moving or Overwatching unless there's a MEC or something to hack). You can still move once and get an Overwatch if that's honestly the best option, but I can't imagine many situations where you'd literally gain nothing by extra moves.

ThunderGr is dead on - EV tends to work in two ways:

1) Timer rush. Whether you're still in concealment or not, there's inevitably going to be situations where you need to dash - be that because you'd like to get higher ground to overwatch from, or you simply don't have time to move normally. This perk makes sure that the Specialist can dash and still do their day job. Even if they never use that Overwatch, it cost you nothing to get it, whereas a normal Overwatch reduced how far you could go.

2) Specialist's version of Implacable. It's worth remembering that EV still takes effect if you just make two moves, not necessarily dashing. This opens up all sorts of tactics which has you moving forward to scope out what's going on, then retreating back out of sight and/or into better cover with an overwatch to the face waiting for them - on a modded rifle with Scope, Repeater and Cool Under Pressure, this can easily turn into a free kill.

By comparison, Guardian doesn't fundamentally change anything. It's still manually triggered, so it always costs one action, and it's effect isn't guaranteed, so you'll literally only see any benefit to it half the time. And those times, it's just an extra Overwatch shot with all the issues that normally arise. I honestly don't get why anyone would go for it.

[Bullett00th]

Guardian is an amazing perk but, like you said, it's very random and very situational.

It has a great function that MIGHT trigger.
Ever Vigilant always triggers. I just feel safer using a full proff option, not to mention that it allows to somewhat safely do a yellow move for your specialist. Also gives you a genuine reason to use covering fire, which is not that useful otherwise.

[Starwing]

I used to always get Ever Vigilant until I put Stocks and special ammo on my Specialists with Guardian. No looking back! Guardian + Stocks all the way :) An Expanded Magazine can help too.

[JaegerBane]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Starwing6:

I used to always get Ever Vigilant until I put Stocks and special ammo on my Specialists with Guardian. No looking back! Guardian + Stocks all the way :) An Expanded Magazine can help too.

I've heard this mentioned a few times and I don't really get what the benefit is. So, you take a shot, and say it hits... congrats, you've now got a 50% chance for a second one. If that misses you do 1/2/3 damage. If it missed to begin with, you just get the 1/2/3 damage on the inital shot. That's fine I guess, but I don't get what is that you gain beyond guaranteeing the Stock damage on at least one Overwatch shot with the chance of getting normal damage on top. It's not that big a deal, or am I missing something? The stock doesn't actually count as a hit so it won't trigger anything dependent on it. It's a similar deal to how Shredder doesn't work with Stocks either.

I ended up in a situation in my playthrough where my A-Team had Scope/Repeater rifles, and both Psionics and Specialists used them, those auto-kills....

[Starwing]

Oprindeligt skrevet af JaegerBane:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Starwing6:

I used to always get Ever Vigilant until I put Stocks and special ammo on my Specialists with Guardian. No looking back! Guardian + Stocks all the way :) An Expanded Magazine can help too.

I've heard this mentioned a few times and I don't really get what the benefit is. So, you take a shot, and say it hits... congrats, you've now got a 50% chance for a second one. If that misses you do 1/2/3 damage. If it missed to begin with, you just get the 1/2/3 damage on the inital shot. That's fine I guess, but I don't get what is that you gain beyond guaranteeing the Stock damage on at least one Overwatch shot with the chance of getting normal damage on top. It's not that big a deal, or am I missing something? The stock doesn't actually count as a hit so it won't trigger anything dependent on it. It's a similar deal to how Shredder doesn't work with Stocks either.

I ended up in a situation in my playthrough where my A-Team had Scope/Repeater rifles, and both Psionics and Specialists used them, those auto-kills.... :B1:

The stock helps because your Specialist could miss their bonus overwatch shot without it. If you give them a stock and something like dragon/viper rounds, then you still get the minimum damage and chance to burn/poison, etc on a bonus shot that misses.

[JaegerBane]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Starwing6:

The stock helps because your Specialist could miss their bonus overwatch shot without it. If you give them a stock and something like dragon/viper rounds, then you still get the minimum damage and chance to burn/poison, etc on a bonus shot that misses.

But stocks only kick in if you miss. If you miss, you don't add the effects of ammo. If you hit, they do nothing. If the bonus shot triggers, a stock would simply guarantee you minor damage.

I get that Stocks benefit from anything lets you shoot more shots but the damage isn't that great and it doesn't seem to justify burning perks and upgrade slots to get 1-3 extra damage. I mean, I guess it would help on a Rookie or something but not on a Specialist of that level.

[Starwing]

Oprindeligt skrevet af JaegerBane:

I get that Stocks benefit from anything lets you shoot more shots but the damage isn't that great and it doesn't seem to justify burning perks and upgrade slots to get 1-3 extra damage. I mean, I guess it would help on a Rookie or something but not on a Specialist of that level.

I see, well...

Oprindeligt skrevet af JaegerBane:

I've heard this mentioned a few times and I don't really get what the benefit is.

I cannot explain it to you any better than those who have come before me. You don't get it and you still don't. I have a game to play.