Difficulty v plain stupidity

[Steeltrap]

OK, I have no problems with the idea the game should be challenging and that you should expect casualties and deaths.
What I DO have problems with are missions that are so stupidly stacked against you they're nigh impossible.
The first 'retaliation' springs to mind. You have 4 soldiers at low rank with basic weapons. You run into a faceless that alone can do huge damage. OK, so don't get close when it's set off. Well, the problem with that is the aliens have 3 groups killing the limited civvies you're supposed to rescue. So you need to get to the civvies, right? Which sets off the faceless.
Assuming you deal with that, you've still got sectoids that can mind control you and if you DON'T have flashbangs available you can easily be stuck where you can't get the sectoid (low level aim is such ♥♥♥♥ and they're in cover). Oh, and if your controlled member was in overwatch at the time, they stay there.,..and shoot anyone trying to get to the sectoid.
The whole thing feels RIDICULOUSLY RANDOM.
I've done that mission with little damage and the civvies rescued. I've had total disasters.
You know what the deciding factor was?
Nothing but DUMB LUCK.
A game that all but entirely throws skilled use of your resources (use of cover, use of grenades/flashbangs etc) out the window simply through utter randomness (where the enemies are, where the faceless is, if you get mind controlled or not...I'm not including chances of hitting shots as that's expected) is NOT rewarding skill.
I don't mind a challenge. But the difficulty spikes and randomness that entirely negates intelligent play if you get the wrong end of it isn't 'inspired desigm', it's lazy and poorly balanced design.
I've played this franchise since the first one was released all those years ago, and as much as I love what they've done with this one, this particular aspect of it is starting to ♥♥♥♥ me off badly.
I've got the point where some early missions I know have the potential to be utter disasters through no particular fault of mine I simply don't do.
Oh, and calling the first retaliation 'easy', as the game does, is just plain stupid.
So how do you all deal with this "sorry, you played fine, but the game has decided to **** you regardless" deal with it? Do you avoid certain missions? Do you not care if you lose all your early squad members? Do you keep reloading the game hoping not to get some horrendous statistical outlier, and if so what do you think that says about the game?
p.s. "get gud" and other such worthless, childish comments aren't needed, thanks.

[Serm]

First, faceless. Its melee can hit at 60% most and A.I. was stupid. Some they just walk to near soldier and point finger to he/her face, sometime walk forward and walk back for decide the target.
Second, Sectroid. Its A.I. very stupid. Their first skill is reanimate, then they will do mindspin a chance of mindcontrol is 1/3. Their took double damage from slash. They lost their mindcontrolled if bang with flashbang.

[✚ Mariel ✚]

Game starts off hard but gets easier with the right strategy

By the first terror mission you should have at least 2 grenadiers, and I'd bring a range and sharpshooter for the other 2 slots and make sure I've got scanners. Only scan civvies directly in your path so if a faceless triggers it cant reach you and attack in the same move

Rangers can OHKO sectoids if necessary. Grenadiers melt cover and do AoE damage and softening. An elevated sharpshooter is pretty accurate even at corporal against exposed targets

The first 2 terror missions do kinda suck, but by the third one you should have 6 grenadiers, some of which will be Lieutenant/Captain rank, all with improved grenade launchers, plasma grenades, and maybe an acid bomb if you are lucky

Just remember that faceless dont hit very hard unless they crit, and their accuracy is pretty bad. They do trash cover though, and if you're on a roof they will drop you as well which usually means death. Chances are you can survive a hit if you trigger one on the ground at least

[Eru]

If you're playing on easy, then the only advice really is learn how to play, sorry. You learn the attack patterns of enemies, and adjust accordingly.

And cover doesn't negate shots entirely and all that, it simply *helps* you survive.

[Steeltrap]

Where did I say I was playing on easy?
My point was you can do all the right things and simply get hosed through nothing other than a combination of dumb luck.
How the **** can anyone think that's good design?
Casualties, sure. People killed, sure. Entire squad killed and failure when you did nothing different from all the other times? Nah, f-that.
I'm sorry, but I consider that lazy, poor design.
I've even had them where I simply ended up pulling back because the enemy was so substantially more capable than I was with my early squad I decided saving civvies was a dumb idea. Even THAT I don't mind, because bad intel is a thing and you need to adapt.
But even WITH that getting wiped because your enemies are simply more numerous AND capable? I think that's pretty poor design, and certainly a fun killer.

[SamBC]

This isn't the kind of post that's easy to post a helpful response to, but that's no excuse for people getting nasty. Please restrict replies to things that will help the OP to understand. Don't just tell them to get good/learn to play, help them do so.

My view is that, if you're doing the same thing and some missions it works, some it doesn't, you're getting lucky on the missions it does work on. Doing things differently can mean less reliance on luck. However, without more of an idea of the tactics you are using, it's hard to tell you how to adjust them.

[Steeltrap]

I have ALSO done those missions without issue, a point I made clearly in my first post.

My point ISN'T the mission so much as the game design being done in such a way that you can kick arse or get murdered and the only real difference is dumb luck.

The more randomness you have, the less skill is involved. You need randomness for replayability, but my frustration is some of these missions are so woefully at the mercy of many luck factors it really is starting to give the me proverbials.

Cheers

[phillip_lynx]

Originally posted by SamBC:

This isn't the kind of post that's easy to post a helpful response to, but that's no excuse for people getting nasty. Please restrict replies to things that will help the OP to understand. Don't just tell them to get good/learn to play, help them do so.

My view is that, if you're doing the same thing and some missions it works, some it doesn't, you're getting lucky on the missions it does work on. Doing things differently can mean less reliance on luck. However, without more of an idea of the tactics you are using, it's hard to tell you how to adjust them.

OT

Sorry for my posts, but I mainly said that *I* have l2p.

So, and now I am off on this thread.

[gimmethegepgun]

Originally posted by Steeltrap:

Entire squad killed and failure when you did nothing different from all the other times? Nah, f-that.

Here's your problem.
You can't go into every mission doing everything the same way every time. You have to learn to adapt.

[Steeltrap]

Originally posted by SamBC:

This isn't the kind of post that's easy to post a helpful response to, but that's no excuse for people getting nasty. Please restrict replies to things that will help the OP to understand. Don't just tell them to get good/learn to play, help them do so.

My view is that, if you're doing the same thing and some missions it works, some it doesn't, you're getting lucky on the missions it does work on. Doing things differently can mean less reliance on luck. However, without more of an idea of the tactics you are using, it's hard to tell you how to adjust them.

Tactics for 1st retal?

Take grenadiers and give them a flashbang each.
A spec with heal is useful, as is the aid protocol if someone is out of position.
Ranger or sniper, each can be valuable. Ranger with mindshield is often handy, too.

Don't advance at full speed. Maintain interlocking arcs of fire. Be prepared to fall back if necessary. If your shot chance is poor, use grenade on cover OR overwatch OR fall back to overwatch and hit them as they advance, especially if they're advancing into other opfire people as well.

Main difficulty is if you trigger faceless EARLY AND a pod at the same time. Firepower is iffy against one of those, and if there's a sectoid or tagging officer around it's worse of course.

And all of that v trying to get 6 civvies when you don't have the advantage of stealth.

As I said, my biggest gripe is so much of the outcome comes down to dumb luck.

[Erik42U]

I realize that it seems quite hard during the first playthrough. If I understand correctly, you say that you always make the right decisions but the game is basically "dumb luck" and therefore you will lose no matter what, right? Well, I have some news for you: there are people who can consistently beat the game in the maximum difficulty setting, and this is a fact so I can only think fo two possibilities:

a) Those who consistently beat the game in the maximum difficulty have consistently an incredible good luck.

b) Far from being perfect as you may think, the decisions that you make in your playthrough are usually wrong and you can't even realize why.

In my opinion, I think that option "b" is much more likely thant option "a". Some people just don't like that attitude: "I do everything perfect and yet the game decides to screw me, and that is bad desing".

[centaurianmudpig]

You always have the choice of extraction. It is a feature meant to be used if the mission goes FUBAR.

I'm 48hours in on the rookie difficulty, on my 5th campaign. The other 4 resulted in failure. Knock on wood, this will be the 1st time I get to see the winning end pretty soon.

I feel I'm about ready for Veteran, we will see. In those playthroughs I may have savescrummed a couple of time. I could have easily avoided failing those 4 times if I did. But XCOM is special.

It's the type of game that you accept what was rolled and you continue on. Make memories of each victory, defeat and loss. Learn from each experience and improve on the next campaign/mission.

And finally
"Entire squad killed and failure when you did nothing different from all the other times? Nah, f-that"

Consider this; Would a chess player use the same tactic every match and expect to win every time?

Sure the same strategy worked the first N times, why not the next? Adapt your tactics to your situation. If you was playing a human opponent, using the same tactic, they would learn your tactic and counter it. Perhaps the aliens used a tactic to counter yours, or maybe it was random chance. Either way, your tactic is flawed as they found a way to counter it. The question is, at what point did you realise your tactic was not working and what would you have done differently in the same situation?

This game is all about random numbers. Instead of gambling money on those numbers in a Casino, you are gambling the virtual lives of your soldiers in a randomly generated world; which requires adaptive tactics.

Gamblers lose more times than they win. Only a few have the 'luck' to win more than they lose. In the end, it's all about persistance. Keep playing, keep learning and you will "get gud".

[Dire Wombat]

In order to answer your questions, I will have to first say that I mostly reject the premise; good, careful play can do an enormous amount to mitigate random chance, far more so than I think most players recognize, and to the point that I think that "luck" is almost irrelevant on difficulties below Commander given perfect play. This was pretty much the case in Enemy Unknown, and it remains true here.

That said, when I say that I "mostly" reject the premise, I mean that I acknowledge that it's possible to get completely screwed over by random chance despite perfect play (when I say "completely screwed over" I mean more than just one unlucky death or failed mission, but a chain of deaths/losses that threatens to put a whole playthrough into a death spiral). If someone is really playing perfectly, that kind of random disaster should be pretty uncommon on Legend, and virtually impossible on Rookie/Veteran (on easier settings the strategic layer gives you a ton of leeway to recover from losses, and wounds/deaths in-mission cause hidden player bonuses to kick in and turn your surviving troops into superheroes).

As for how to respond when random chance really does smack you around? I get some catharsis from calling the game nasty names, then look for a way to recover and minimize the losses. Prioritize keeping your experienced soldiers alive, since they're generally harder to replace than whatever you lose by failing a mission (less so than in Enemy Unknown, but still).

My new-ish Legend playthrough, I lost the second Terror mission because I couldn't fight my way across the map fast enough, could only afford to lose one more civilian and was out of grenades while fighting the last enemy pod, and on the last Advent's last turn before he died, he shot one civilian and another ran and took cover against a burning car. Mission failed. But whatever, I might have saved the mission if I'd been more reckless in combat, but losing $25/month in income isn't half as bad as losing a soldier, and all my people came home. The playthrough is going fine; strategy layer under control, and no deaths since the first mission (a couple close calls where if I'd been unluckier someone could have died, but I'd still be okay with a couple more deaths).

Even on Legend, it's really only the very first mission that has a decent chance of destroying you purely by bad luck. If I lose that one I just start a new game, but that rarely happens if you're playing carefully enough.

[Mistfox]

By the time you get your first retaliation/terror mission, you should have had some leveled up soldiers with you. My preference for those missions are a single ranger and 3 grenadiers (early game). Run the ranger up to spot for you without triggering the pods, then start the fight with an explosive opening if you can (volatile mix helps, acid is divine!). Don't go for the civies, you do not want to trigger a Faceless by accident and besides, given enough time, they reveal themselves anyway. As long as you clear an area in a line where none of the aliens can get behind you, the civilians are safe anyway, the enemy focuses on you so don't waste moves getting close. And don't reveal your ranger, the advantage he gives spotting for grenade volleys is way more than that single extra kill is worth.

[Erik42U]

As I said previously, your tactics are usually wrong:

Tactics for 1st retal?

Take grenadiers and give them a flashbang each.

Wrong. Grenadiers are very useful to destroy cover, so 2 grenadiers with 2 frag grenades each will be very instrumental for this kind of mission. However, grenades only deal 3 damage, so you will need other classes to shoot the exposed enemies once their cover has been removed. A flashbang can be useful if the situation turns nasty, but take it with other soldier, not a grenadier. By this time you should have access to the battle scanner if you planed your investigation/autopsies correctly. Battle scanners reveal the faceless.

A spec with heal is useful, as is the aid protocol if someone is out of position.
Ranger or sniper, each can be valuable. Ranger with mindshield is often handy, too.

Wrong. Healing is a reactive action, you need it when a soldier is wounded. Combat protocol is a proactive action: you finish off that last alien with only 2 HP before it can shoot back, so your soldier will not get wounded in the first place. A ranger with the phantom perk and a battle scanner is way more handy.

Don't advance at full speed.

Wrong. A phantom ranger allows you to dash quite a lot in this kind of mission, and you need to dash or you will not save enough civilians on time. Move him first within the blue move range: if he spots something then react as needed trying to keep him concealed. If he spots nothing then move ahead to cover. The rest of the squad can dash safely behind.

If your shot chance is poor, use grenade on cover OR overwatch OR fall back to overwatch and hit them as they advance, especially if they're advancing into other opfire people as well.

Again... wrong. If your shot is poor you have to make it better. Move to flank or use grenades to remove cover. Sitting in overwatch or falling back to overwatch is really a very poor decision. Overwatch shots have an aim penalty... if they have to aim at all. If you have any soldier in LOS in half cover and you overwatch, that soldier will be shot at. If your soldiers overwatch out of LOS but the aliens can get LOS within 1 move, then your overwatch shots will probably miss and your soldiers will get shot at. You can use overwatch with your last soldier as a way to pin the last alien if you have everybody in full cover. If you overwatch with all of your soldiers then you are screwing yourself.

Main difficulty is if you trigger faceless EARLY AND a pod at the same time. Firepower is iffy against one of those, and if there's a sectoid or tagging officer around it's worse of course.

This can happen, yes, but there are ways to counter it. Battle scanners can help, and moving away from the civilians can help as well. If it still happens then you have to know your priorities. Sectoids should be your last target, since they are usually harmless at least in the first turn, and yet, you speak of them as if they were the worst possible enemy.

And all of that v trying to get 6 civvies when you don't have the advantage of stealth.

A phantom ranger always starts the mission with stealth. No wonder why you struggle so much with those tactics.

As I said, my biggest gripe is so much of the outcome comes down to dumb luck.

Sorry, no dumb luck in your case. Just bad tactics.

[Serm]

Just learn to lost in battlefield.
You ambrush them and they can ambrush you.

Late game it's just a walk in a Alien Zoo.