Why the Stun Lancer should be Removed from XCOM 2 [Game Discussion/Mod Request]

[Kendrick]

I've played the game and have beaten the campaign and have come to the conclusion that the game would be better off without the Stun Lancer. Before you say, boo hoo suck it up, hear me out. The stun lancer should be removed because it is more frustrating to deal with than it is a challenge compared to the late game enemies.

When I first ran into the stun lancer, I said wtf the moment it stunned almost all of my team the first playthrough. I thought that it was bull but then I ran into the codex, then the sectopod, andromedon, gatekeeper, spoiler enemy, etc. etc. and realized that I had little problem with these enemies. The stun lancer on the other hand is always an annoyance for me and a lot of others because they are just flat out annoying.

Ask yourself, when you fight and kill a sectopopd, how do you feel? Victorious for defeating a behemoth of a creature, a story that would be reminescent of David and the Goliath but what about a Stun Lancer. Nothing, and all you get is stun, disorient, etc. etc. You could always flashbang stun lancers which is fine but lancers are really the most boring and frustrating enemy in the game.

I have had much more fun fighting against late game enemies that have wacky abilities that I have to deal with than just a stun lancer. They really should've buffed chryssalids and then just remove the lancer. I wouldn't mind dealing with chyrssalids; after all we all remember the fishing village and it's a shame not seeing anything similar.

[ImHelping]

Honestly, a "Remove their one hit KO trick" would be a better mod. Removing stun lancers entirely would be overkill, so long as the "LOL I hit you once, the end" ability was gone.

But removing them entirely is an easier rush job mod to whip out, than reaching in and editing an enemies abilities. Or even removing Stun lancers, but adjusting the research and equipment projects that need stun lancer corpses.

[Syn]

Postat inițial de Zhorge:

Postat inițial de Syne:

It's cute that you think a Ranger's toothpick can kill anything aside from maybe a Sectoid with no cover.

lol. Reading comprehension isn't your thing, is it? I'm, literally, mocking the complainers who whine about OP Stun Lancers when a ranger can just wreck havoc on groups of soft-skinned aliens.

Good for the goose. Good for the gander. Comprende? No, of course not..

I get that you were using an analogy. I was saying your analogy was bad. And you should feel bad.

[Radene]

Postat inițial de Galactic Origins:

"Remove the Stun Lancer from the Game"??????

Are you people crazy? They are easy to beat . just shoot them. I've won 2 games so far, nromal and commander difficulties, and Stun Lancers may be annoying but they are definitely not my major concern.

sheesh

"Just shoot them?" "JUST SHOOT THEM!?" Did I build the elaborate underground maze filled with deathtraps for nothing?

[yuri simp]

People seem to forget that melee attacks are no longer guaranteed hits in this game, and no unit exemplifies this more than the Lancer, who can have an atrocious 55% to connect on basically anything. And they cannot OHK anything but the most unarmored or wounded enemy - their melee attacks don't do a lot of actual damage. They do stun, and that is their main threat.

That being said, Stun Lancers are an enemy that serves a very key purpose: disrupting entrenched forces. Their melee attack ignores cover and they can come swinging from a long way. Their entire point is to be obnoxious little things at close range and distract your attention, while the rest of the ADVENT pod engages at you at mid-range. It's less an "OP enemy" and more a "different type of enemy" to me, one that requires a different mentality to deal with.

They have never posed a problem to me on Legend, personally, though I can see how people could struggle with them. Deal with Lancers first if you absolutely can't stand them. They aren't as durable as the Shieldbearer.

Postat inițial de TeaSeeOh:

This logic is well and good until you realize the ending cinematic has the ADVENT troopers laying down arms. So in order to surrender, they must care about their own survival to some extent.

Until you consider that ADVENT has lost all communication from the Alien forces, with the destruction of the central alien facility. They are no longer being manipulated by the aliens, so of course they are going to value self-preservation now that they have regained some degree of free will.

[Joikax]

Postat inițial de TXB trashRobin:

That being said, Stun Lancers are an enemy that serves a very key purpose: disrupting entrenched forces. Their melee attack ignores cover and they can come swinging from a long way. Their entire point is to be obnoxious little things at close range and distract your attention, while the rest of the ADVENT pod engages at you at mid-range. It's less an "OP enemy" and more a "different type of enemy" to me, one that requires a different mentality to deal with.

Wait are you talking about the Berserker? Wait wait, perhaps the chryssalid... Oh, no, wait, you must be surelly talking about the Faceless! No, can't be, Muton also has a rifle, can melee, and has a grenade on top of all that. Hmmmmmmmm what about the Archon? Damn, almost forgot about the Andromedon.

As if we didn't have enough units capable of melee, capable of disrupting entrenched forces, capable of dealing massive amounts of damage ***in very specific situations***. The difference in the Stunlancer is simply the fact that their AI is as dumb as a retarded child (yes, I said it) and that coupled with their stunning, high damage rod of doom + infinite dash of death makes it ridiculously broken and tedious to deal with. All other melee capable units have very specific playstyles, this one is just "herpa derp imma stun yo ass either you like it or not unless your funny mass overwatch camping connects"

[yuri simp]

Postat inițial de Joikax:

their stunning, high damage rod of doom

Their melee attack is probably the weakest in the game, tied with a non-Blademaster Ranger's. Just saying. Also, the stunning effect is not as consequential as the more dangerous ability of the Stun Lancer: knocking soldiers unconscious. And, if you let a Stun Lancer live past its activation turn, you are doing something wrong with your tactical play anyway (come on, Stun Lancers are some of the easiest enemies to single out and take down).

But, honestly, all the enemies that you've mentioned (except the Muton, for obvious reasons) have similarly "dumb" AI, and will charge at any enemy they can find. You can't blame the Stun Lancer alone for that. Hell, the Berserker has a chance to disorient any enemy hit by its melee attack, the Faceless get an AoE melee attack, Chrysallids apply an indefinite poison debuff. Andromedons and Archons do massive damage on their melee attacks, at least doubling the Stun Lancer's power on average. These guys have similarly nasty effects on their melee attacks, so it isn't fair to single out the Stun Lancer like that.

Also, no other unit functions as well as the Stun Lancer when it comes to disrupting entrenched forces. You know why? Stun Lancers have the ability to dash + melee, an ability that only Chrysallids and Rangers share. Mutons can't do this. Archons can't do this. Andromedons can't do this. Faceless can't do this. Berserkers can't do this. This makes them far more effective at penetrating enemy formations and closing in, especially when considering their above-average mobility.

[Flavalicious]

Lancers are fine, just need a way to wake up from being KO'ed that doesnt require a revive....Should be time based, like 3-4 turns, or even a random chance per turn to wake up.

[Ragnarök]

Early in the game, they are a challenge. Late in the game, they are there are a choice. Kill the uber infront of you and get smacked by the lancer or kill the lancer and smacked by the uber. They are much easier to control when you have a good hacker and a good Psion. As the hacker can take care of the Mech/Secto while the psi can take care of the rest. If that dont work.... Grenadiers.... It is a game of control or boom.

If control dont work, blow the ♥♥♥♥ outta everything.


May I also add, mimic grenades are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ amazing.

[Doing gens, you?]

Postat inițial de Budoshi:

i think they stole the role of the bersekers. we dont see them a lot in the game and they are so easily dispatched that we are more or so stuck with the damn stun lancer. more so thath they come back later on as heavy stun lancer. but the bersekers that supposedly be the ultimate melee enemies class. is no more then a bullet sponge. imay sound like im complaining but im not. the game is amazing but not perfect, but no game is so.

Just saying, on legend the berserker usually needs to be focus fired by my entire team before it falls. Guy has an hp bar like Dr. Mundo with full warmogs.

[Nova225]

And they cannot OHK anything but the most unarmored or wounded enemy - their melee attacks don't do a lot of actual damage. They do stun, and that is their main threat.

Lancers can cause Unconciousness, which is essentially the same as killing the soldier for that mission. If you happen to have a specialist with revival protocol, then you can come back from being shorthanded, but that means you now have a specialist without Haywire Protocol, which is half the reason to have a specialist in the first place.

The AI does value self-preservation, usually. They'll always seek out high cover, and rarely move to low cover after that unless they're forced to (flanked usually). Enemies that don't need it (every other melee unit) will obviously bum rush you, because their defense is the same with or without cover. Stun Lancers are the only unit that will happily sacrifice their cover to deal a measly 3 damage to your back row (or knock them unconcious).

Again, touting lore reasons is no excuse for poor AI.

[Geek_Haven]

Postat inițial de Wobahs:

So far I've beaten the game twice, first on Veteran and then on Commander. Stun Lancers wrecked my face repeatedly in my first playthrough but since I learned how to deal with them I haven't had any trouble. I don't feel particularly proud when I kill Sectopods. I certainly did for my first one or two, but then I realized how easy they are to disable and control when you are equipped with EMP bombs, Specialists with Haywire Protocol, anyone with Bluescreen rounds, and (for when you get them) Psis with the incredibly strong Stasis power. Since reliably defeating this enemy was a matter of being prepared for it, I didn't have any frustration once I was prepared. Stun lancers were the same way.

I do not share your sentiment with stun lancers. As you've pointed out, Flashbangs' disorientation debuff disables their melee attack. Flashbangs are available to purchase from day 1, so you're always able to acquire an item that weakens them. You also know that they are predictable. After you spot a stun lancer, he is very likely to rush you next turn and make his melee attack. You recognize that chryssalids and stun lancers are very similar in how they perform - I don't understand why you detest stun lancers so much but think chryssalids are just fine.

EXACTLY. I don't even use flashbangs at all and even in this case lancers almost never give me ANY problems. 90% of times they just get wsted when they try to close in if they are still alive after my initial attack. And as soon as my ranger gets bladestorm I do even more. I bate those suckers to come at me, and in their weakened after initial attack state they are easy meat for a ranger to dispatch.
Enforce your own game on enemies. Force them to play by YOUR rules.

[Geek_Haven]

Postat inițial de Hathur:

the sad thing is stun lancers (especially late game when they get upgraded) are far more dangerous than Brutes or other late game enemies. Hell, I'm more afraid of lancers than I am sectopods, I will target lancers first and foremost as they pose the greatest threat with their BS ability to knock someone unconscious despite not depleting their health first. Brutes are so pathetic I have yet to have 1 get close enough to hit my forces once... but stun lancers can run in from the fog of war and knock out my sniper in the back ranks with 1 hit :/

Sorry but BS lies. NO enemy attacks you like that SUDDENLY from the fog of war. EVEN on retaliation missions where you don't have concielment if they come out of fog of war they activate and aither trying to shoot or get to cover AFTER they get out of fog and used 1 of their actions.
And if you have no means of countering such lancer which will use its last action to try to charge on you then you are playing wrong and I presume uses to much of dashes.. Honestly in my2,5 playthroughs even with ironman legend I am doing now I have yet to see lancer doing more than 1 turn stun, most of times they either die before having a chance to let out a squeak or give me a half turn stun in other words take 1 action point from me while doing up to 3 sometimes 5 if they crit damage.
Guess I am very lucky then

[Geek_Haven]

Postat inițial de Syne:

Postat inițial de Zhorge:

Do you complain about your Ranger and his fusion blade plus speed (mobility) PCS at +3 plus bladestorm plus blademaster plus untouchable plus reaper?

I bet you don't. I bet you think 'that's the way it should be' as you waltz into a pod and crush it... So I don't much see your point. The Stun Lancer is a relatively weak unit. He's easy to counter. And as you're managing the combat effectively they'll likely never do much in the way of damage.

It's cute that you think a Ranger's toothpick can kill anything aside from maybe a Sectoid with no cover.

Sorry but lolwhat? On commander difficulty my ranger got 11 kill streak with reaper. Yes I removed minus 1 debuff but still. It killed 2 shield bearers, 5 chrysalids, on his own and finished damaged mech, archon, berserker and codex. all of whom were at 8+ hp before rangers attack If you use correctly melee colonel ranger is a beaste even with an arc blade, not even speaking about fusion blade.

[Nova225]

Postat inițial de lordbyron:

Postat inițial de Syne:

It's cute that you think a Ranger's toothpick can kill anything aside from maybe a Sectoid with no cover.

Sorry but lolwhat? On commander difficulty my ranger got 11 kill streak with reaper. Yes I removed minus 1 debuff but still. It killed 2 shield bearers, 5 chrysalids, on his own and finished damaged mech, archon, berserker and codex. all of whom were at 8+ hp before rangers attack If you use correctly melee colonel ranger is a beaste even with an arc blade, not even speaking about fusion blade.

"I got an 11 kill streak with damage boosted ability" Well gee I wonder how that happened.

[Geek_Haven]

Postat inițial de Nova225:

Postat inițial de lordbyron:

Sorry but lolwhat? On commander difficulty my ranger got 11 kill streak with reaper. Yes I removed minus 1 debuff but still. It killed 2 shield bearers, 5 chrysalids, on his own and finished damaged mech, archon, berserker and codex. all of whom were at 8+ hp before rangers attack If you use correctly melee colonel ranger is a beaste even with an arc blade, not even speaking about fusion blade.

"I got an 11 kill streak with damage boosted ability" Well gee I wonder how that happened.

Сorrection , Reaper doesn't boost the damage. I just removed the debuff so damage could be same as any other attack with a swords. So no boost here. And I posted it as a proof that ranger's melee attack is more that viable on taking things beside sectoids as Syne implied