XCOM 2
Why dont my heals count after the mission is over?
So i noticed my guys keep coming back after a mission with worse wounds than I remember, so this time i paid close attention, and yes the heals are not sticking. I mean i had 2 guys with 4 health, healed them back to full with the Gremlin,so they were back to 8 health they took no further damage, but when the mission was over they both were wounded and at 4 health like i never healed them. Is this right? The heal is only good on the op? Or is this yet another fun bug to enhance my gaming with 2K?
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กำลังแสดง 16-30 จาก 33 ความเห็น
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย hghwolf, potato freezer:
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย JM001:
There are a lot of things in this game that don't make sense (like how you can't use dead turrets as cover) but there are small changes you can make to the game to make it more consistent and actually strategic as opposed to an RNG snooze fest (though it is impossible to completely remove RNG from the game because it is kind of required for the game to function).

Y`know, everyone I`ve ever seen make that argument was very very bad at XCOM. The base game is tactical enough, and random chance is part of tactics. Especially in games tactical skill mean reducing or eliminating the influence of random elements, or at least tilting the scales in your favour.

The game types you`re looking for is called "puzzle". It`s solvable in a specific way and it`s solvable that way everytime.
Yeah I made the comment about RNG not being removable because the game wouldn't work without it, and it actually works out because you can never plan for every situation as random things can happen (that is why I didn't really say more about it than I did).

I actually beat the game on legend ironman vanilla after approximately 195 (think that is right_ attempts so yeah I know a thing or 2 about being bad at this game :P though I think commander is a breeze when you get used to legend. Thing is I feel the game is more consistent when you make small changes like using the make heals persist mod but with a persistent heal percentage that made sense (I use it with my current game and I still get quite a lot of people in the med bay). I just think the small changes to make the game more consistent make it more enjoyable.

I also now use A better advent and better pods plus (I modified better pods so that I get 2 more enemies per pod right off the bat so common pods have 4 enemies with the occasional 5 and reinforcement drops have 5). To compensate I have increased starting squad size to 6. I also added a lot of custom enemies that start showing up on the very first guerilla op that have 6+ health and even special ammo (I had a group on this campaign that had 2 pyro troopers with dragon rounds and 6 health, a stunlancer with 1 point of armor and 8 health called a riot lancer and a mec scout, which is a small mec with 2 points of armor and 3 health). Overall this makes the game a lot more enjoyable and still makes it challenging (though I am using some customer classes that are a bit on the OP side and will probably not use them on my next campaign).

Also I played vanilla again the other day and found that since I have gotten so used to it now it is a lot easier so of course it is just a matter of 1) practicing and 2) hoping rngesus is on your side :P.
แก้ไขล่าสุดโดย ShunBrokuSatsu; 28 ก.ค. 2016 @ 11: 14pm
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย neil:
If 25% of your body was hurt
YOU'D be Gravely Injured !!!

10-12% body surface area burns = 90% Fatal
1.8 of our 7 liters of blood = ABSOLUTELY FATAL
A Limb missing = Pretty badly stuffed up !

And the list goes on


To be fair the differentiation between Gravely Wounded and Wounded is a bit wonky. On my last mission my top sniper took a 3-hp wound and came back Gravely Wounded. Her friend - the same specialist who patched her up in the mission - took the same wound and was Wounded.

Cpl Jessica Frost is currently in the AWC for the next 9 days. Sgt Fen 'Vector' Zhang was out in two.

To be fair, Vector is a bit of a badass, but that's another story.
why do people seem to have this weird and just entirely screwy idea that medkits are (or should be) just as effective as long term natural healing with genuine medical care?

all they are for is to basically stabilize someone and keep them going through the mission. the idea that a medkit in the field could even be capable of that level of permanent healing is a level of health care that goes beyond even star trek.

if a medkit or nanomedkit, etc, were really capable of that, then the vast majority of the health care system would be pretty much obselete, and even back at base, there would be no reason to have any wounds at all after any and every mission, since all they'd have to do is just spray another medkit on you.

in other words, if you really truly want in your game world for medikit healing to be permanent, then you might as well go the next logical step and find or make a mod that completely does away with wounds entirely, since recharged medikits would eliminate them within moments of getting back to base.
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Six Cents of Humor:
why do people seem to have this weird and just entirely screwy idea that medkits are (or should be) just as effective as long term natural healing with genuine medical care?

Because the game doesn`t differentiate between "real" and "temporary" HP, and becaue XCOM works under "critical existence failure" rules. A soldier on 1 HP and a soldier on full HP have the exact same capability, and so does a soldier that was shot and then healed to full.
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย hghwolf, potato freezer:
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Six Cents of Humor:
why do people seem to have this weird and just entirely screwy idea that medkits are (or should be) just as effective as long term natural healing with genuine medical care?

Because the game doesn`t differentiate between "real" and "temporary" HP, and becaue XCOM works under "critical existence failure" rules. A soldier on 1 HP and a soldier on full HP have the exact same capability, and so does a soldier that was shot and then healed to full.


you know... that is probably the first genuinely reasonable argument I've seen for that with regards to how the game works.

that being said, there is one way, at least, that wounds would affect a soldier's performance in game, in that wounded soldiers are more susceptible to panic, or at least they sure as heck seem to be.

it probably would be less confusing for people if the game did more explicitly show people that in the game mechanics, there is a difference between temporary and real HP, even if that difference is mostly just the effect on recovery.
This is xcom, not jagged alliance 2. Though it works similar there. Healing takes time, which it should.
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Lauleyhn:
This is xcom, not jagged alliance 2. Though it works similar there. Healing takes time, which it should.
agreed.

and I like that it forces me to have a larger group of soldiers to draw from, gives me a chance to have fun and try different builds and other things with them. as well as just play with the customization options more. sometimes it's just fun and interesting to do something a bit different, and having more soldiers is good encouragement for that for me.
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย hghwolf, potato freezer:
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Six Cents of Humor:
why do people seem to have this weird and just entirely screwy idea that medkits are (or should be) just as effective as long term natural healing with genuine medical care?

Because the game doesn`t differentiate between "real" and "temporary" HP, and becaue XCOM works under "critical existence failure" rules. A soldier on 1 HP and a soldier on full HP have the exact same capability, and so does a soldier that was shot and then healed to full.

That, and the fact that a 'medical kit' in computer game terms typically means something you take to get the HP back up, it's relatively rare to have something like XCOM's system where medical aid only works on the mission and recovery is something that happens after. Even though Six Cent's logic about why you'd have hospitals if you could just heal people on the fly is entirely reasonable, the logic of regaining HP is pretty well-entrenched already. Aside from XCOM et al, I can't think of many games that do this.

Having said that, XCOM2's wound system is a little dubious. The hitpoints and seriousness of the wound only appear to have vague correlations and there was a hefty switchover from XCOM:EU/EW to 2 where the concept of 'artificial/armour' health went out the window.
I think, the way LW handled injuries and armor was closest to be realistic.
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย JaegerBane:
That, and the fact that a 'medical kit' in computer game terms typically means something you take to get the HP back up, it's relatively rare to have something like XCOM's system where medical aid only works on the mission and recovery is something that happens after. Even though Six Cent's logic about why you'd have hospitals if you could just heal people on the fly is entirely reasonable, the logic of regaining HP is pretty well-entrenched already. Aside from XCOM et al, I can't think of many games that do this.

It`s a strange concession to realism in a game that lets me raise my slain enemies as zombies by mind controlled proxy.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย JaegerBane:
Having said that, XCOM2's wound system is a little dubious. The hitpoints and seriousness of the wound only appear to have vague correlations and there was a hefty switchover from XCOM:EU/EW to 2 where the concept of 'artificial/armour' health went out the window.

This is actually another problem of the "bulk HP" system. Different kinds of injuries to different parts of the body take varying amounts of time to heal; superficial burns, while painful, don`t take as long to heal as a comparatively less painful gash in the arm. It`s actually quite reasonable to have wildly different heal times for the same HP value in damage to represent the various kinds of injuries a character might have sustained.

Although I`m almost certain the idea of "armour" HP that don`t incur wound time was only introduced in LW, the best worst mod.
The whole health system has been a disaster since EU.

The extra health soldiers gain from armor is treated as actual health; this is the same across both games.

In XCOM2, apparently the threshholds are much higher to the point where even 2 points of damage results in the soldier being "gravely wounded" and out of comission for nearly 20 days. It makes absolutely no sense.

Mods fixed this. One being that any health beyond the soldier's base health didn't count towards their wounds (it's just armor damage), for both games. X2: Another mod that lets the heals done in mission to count towards their final health post mission.

Together they usually just result in your soldiers having no wound time, which is kinda OP, but if you're like me and only want to use specific soldiers you custom created (with custom voice packs), then it's kinda required.

The last thing being a 1 HP soldier fighting as well as a 20 HP one. Red Fog is the modifier that fixed that, causing wounded soldiers to suffer increasing penalties. It was part of the base game in EU (second wave options).. which are all missing from X2 for reasons unknown. There's a couple mods that add it back, but both are packaged into big mods which I'd rather not use (controversial toolbox and another with core issues).

So, there's solutions, but having the base game perform as it does is pretty stupid in the first place.
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย hghwolf, potato freezer:
Although I`m almost certain the idea of "armour" HP that don`t incur wound time was only introduced in LW, the best worst mod.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย DAOWAce:
Mods fixed this. One being that any health beyond the soldier's base health didn't count towards their wounds (it's just armor damage), for both games.
Where do people keep getting this idea from? No wounds from armor-only damage ALWAYS was the case in EU/EW.
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย neil:
Umm
Sorry
But if you get SHOT on a mission your Injured.
Healing only keeps you alive DURING the mission.
When you get back you go to hospital.

Its been like that since the original UFO/X-Com game of the 90's. And never changed

And funny. Its just like real life. "Oh shock Horror!!"
I should know. I'm a Paramedic/Nurse

Neil
Aussie Land

Actually, healing worked quite differently in OG and TFTD in the 90s. There was no such thing as HP healing. The medikit was usable to remove Stun and heal Critical wounds. If you were at 1 HP with no Critical wounds, then no amount of medkit use would heal you even to 2 HPs on the field. However, when you healed a Critical wound you got some HP back almost like a side effect.


The recovery time was based on the HP, the soldier finished with after the combat. If you were lucky enough to receive a low HP damage with a 2 Critical wounds, the medikit could get the soldier back to max HP. In that case, there was no recovery time at all.

So no, the EU/EW, X2 medikit mechanics are pretty dumbed down.
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย hghwolf, potato freezer:
Because the game doesn`t differentiate between "real" and "temporary" HP, and becaue XCOM works under "critical existence failure" rules. A soldier on 1 HP and a soldier on full HP have the exact same capability, and so does a soldier that was shot and then healed to full.

"critical existence failure", I like that term :D. I do think that it is stupid like that 1HP solder perform the same way a full HP is just nonsense.
That is the reason I created my mod to
- apply Red Fog even for non penetrating blunt trauma for both XCOM and enemies.
- make excessive red fog damage bleed out the unit even at max HP.
- non penetrating hits completely deflect damage
- Medikit heals on the field remove Red Fog damage (painkiller effect) and add +1 HP when the recovery time is calculated (first aid effect).
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย DAOWAce:

So, there's solutions, but having the base game perform as it does is pretty stupid in the first place.

While I'd agree that the way the wound system works is very unintuitive, I'd stop short of calling it a disaster. It nonetheless has had the effect of focusing the player on avoiding damage rather than absorbing it.

My only real bugbear is the Shaken mechanic - potentially triggering on any wound, regardless of soldier rank, equipment and wound severity just isn't good design. I can imagine explanations for this mechanic but I'm not clear on what it does for the gameplay.
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วันที่โพสต์: 28 ก.ค. 2016 @ 4: 12pm
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