Grenadier Build Question

[Spelly83]

I've been reading how grenadiers fall off late game, and one guy says he doesn't even have them in his late game squad.

I always go suppression, but I find myself quite often using explosives to demolish cover. More often than I use suppression, in fact. Maybe demolition would be a better choice? Ammo is more plentiful than explosives. What's everyone's experience with it, and with Grenadiers in general?

(Also, is anyone else annoyed that they changed the names on the classes?)

[Narrowmind]

Considering the heavy doesn't have a grenade launcher, no, I'm not annoyed with the name change. (If that's what you're referring to.)

It's hard to ignore suppression, because it's so sexy. It's almost like making a turn based game a real time game, since the suppression continues through the turn!

I know there are demolition fans, but I almost never used it. I just become angry when it doesn't destroy all cover. Some isn't good enough. Later on, I'd much rather lean on the also unpopular Hail of Bullets, but at least it always hits, and shreds, if you took the appropriate perk. People's lives are on the line. I can't be bothered with inconsistencies. This is the reason so many take other guaranteed hit skills, like combat protocol, and while I tend to get it in the end, I almost never use it. It's just nice to have. Demo might be nice to have, but I always put my points in something else. And yeah, I'd rather take just about any specialist skill over the grenadier's demolition.

[Amanoob105]

The main problem I have with the demolition ability is that unlike explosives it is a % chance to happen. So if it misses then you just took a shot that did nothing but leave you needing to reload sooner.
While suppression doesn't do anything to help kill a target it at least has a reliable effect. So for that reason alone I will keep taking it over demolition even if I also don't use it very a lot and less as a campaign goes on. It's simply one of my backup plans, just in case.

As to grenadiers in the late game, I disagree with the idea of them being no longer having use. Though that is one of the fun things about this game, in a lot of areas there is no one answer and different people can find their own tactics that work for them.

Personally the longer a game goes on they are one of three classes, along with a spec and a sharpshooter, that I always try to include in any squad I send out into combat.
They're not generally there to kill things themselves as they are there primarily to help expedite the killing of other, often larger, targets.
Their secondary use, thanks to them normally ending up with more health and armor than everyone else (short of the SPARKS), is that of meatshields. If there are two pieces of cover and ones the worse of the other, no prizes for guessing who's getting the lesser option.

----

It was a bit annoying at first that a lot of the names got changed. But you get used to it fairly quickly.
-The ranger is basically just another assault, even with a sword.
-The grenadier makes sense as they are no longer really a heavy but now pack a lighter ordnance. And no longer have a chance of shooting it in the wrong direction to the tune of "dam, I missed!" (though that alone could be called reason to move away from the older name ).
-Changing sniper to sharpshooter makes sense as sniping is now simply one of two things they can be good at.
-The spec is, again, really just a support by another name and traded the smoke out of a little robot friend, though it was a very good trade.

[Blinkybubs]

I find the nade launcher to be pretty handy myself.

[fewerjungle]

Back in vanilla, before wotc's hero classes, my squad was always the 4 standard classes + 2 extra grenadiers. The only other class I would comfortably use more than one of in a squad, if grenadiers weren't available, would be the ranger.

Early game the grenadier's role is to blow cover. Without destroying cover you have to get close for good aim or a flank. Getting closer / flanking is the reason why players end up fighting more than one pod at a time, aka, the main reason of death in this game.
The grenade launcher facilitates immensely the cover blowing aspect of the game with extra range and radius, thus early game a grenadier is indispensable.

Late game, heavy gunner traits are preferable if you have some aim on grenadiers and are playing with more than one.
Holotargeting means more aim for everybody. Especially good for tough targets you have to hit consecutively, like gatekeepers.
Dual shot is the first double hit ability you get in the standard classes. Without aim it can be risky, but heavy mechs mkII are always good targets.
Hail of bullets is a guaranteed hit. Always good to have.
Rupture is again good against tough targets and a good alternative to dual shot if you're lacking aim.

On the bombardier side, a special mention to saturation fire which is a great ability with huge damage potential, and salvo which often means two actions per turn as long as you have grenades / explosives.

Equipment-wise, bluescreen rounds are always a good fit. Because of holotargeting and
shredder, grenadiers often shoot first. If you can make that first shot a crippling or lethal one against mechanical enemies, all the better.

To answer the saturation vs demolition question, I take demolition, however those are, in my opinion, the worst grenadier skills and in the course of a campaign I rarely use demolition, if ever.

Bottom line: grenadiers are excellent throughout the game.

[khumak]

I find all 4 of the base classes to be very effective all the way through, but IMO the Psi Op in the late game can mostly replace everyone except the specialist. Most of their abilities ignore cover and aim issues and they have a good mix of crowd control abilities like domination or stasis as well as abilities that damage multiple targets like void rift or null lance.

I will usually pair up my grenadiers with sharpshooters and my rangers with specialists and send 1 of each on most missions. If I send more than 4 then the extra 2 are frequently just whatever random people are bonded to someone who is tired or wounded. Heroes I usually bond to Psi Ops. Psi Ops that are not bonded to heroes usually get bonded to each other.

As far as grenadiers specifically, I find that in the early to mid game I'm mostly using them for the grenades. In the late game I'm using them more as gunners, although upgraded launcher plus plasma grenades or acid bombs or something can still be pretty effective. I don't ever use demolition because it's so situational that I never bother to even buy the skill. Suppression I will use on rare occasions. For me to find demolition useful I would need it to be modded so there was a 100% chance of destroying all of the target's cover. THEN it would actually be useful, even if it did no damage to the target.

Plus, even in the late game there are times when something that needs to die THIS TURN went and hid behind a wall somewhere. Grenadiers are just the best option for removing that wall so everyone else can kill it.

[Narrowmind]

Saturation fire POTENTIAL. Yeah.. Not for me. It's another awful skill in my eyes.

As for the psis, yeah, I've fought battles immediately after leveling them up that were a major issue! I mean, life or death! And they saved me. They quickly make me remember how badly I always needed them.😢

.. Or maybe I just stormed in without a care in the world, taking on all comers, and being forced to regret it, after fire and acid puddles were all over the place. 🤣

[Holografix]

Skills are for cosplaying as well. For example, if you want to create a Bomb Blast grenadier where every action they do is EXPLOSIONS -- demo works for that.

[Karasukan]

Because grenadiers are the weakest class in the game. Dont put time in them to learn them, learn other classes.

[Two Gun Bob]

Late game the demolition skill is situational but often very effective when paired with late game sharpshooters and specialists set up with enhanced overwatch skills. It also comes in handy sometimes with the Chosen, eliminating their hidey-holes. I often set up a late game grenadier for robot engagement with bluescreen and EMP, combined with the innate shredding from skills and gear so even if I don't need to destroy every last piece of the map he's still useful in another niche.

Early on though, I skip both demolition and shredder. I start with blast padding and suppression until I get the training center and some extra AP.

[Reality]

I go with mostly demolition skills.

When I get to end of the game my Grenadiers are usually only Captains compared to the 7~9 odd colonel/majors I have in other classes, so their last 2 skills are never avaialble.

I think even without a full skillset they are still FINE for lategame Advent Base Strikes, Retalition Missions, and I even give them a final retirment on the Network Tower Mission a lot of the time.

Multiple Plasma Grenades can do a lot, even on LegendaryDifficulty Health Pools (Try to finish the game with Advanced Enemies and not Elite ones though)

The only lategame stuff that they are REALLY not qualified for is the actual final mission and the Tactical Legacy DLC maps.

[psychotron666420]

Yeah suppression is next to useless, demolition is way better.
I'll use grenadiers all game but I typically only have one in a squad (if any) at any given time. Late game they're still great when you load them with emp bombs to take out sectopods and gatekeepers (or at least stun them with the bombs).

[Sindorei]

Grenades only do laughable damage, if it was even remotely realistic they would 1-shot unarmored and unshielded targets at point blank range, and cause heavy damage further away.
They're only good for removing removable cover.

[psychotron666420]

Originally posted by Sindorei:

Grenades only do laughable damage, if it was even remotely realistic they would 1-shot unarmored and unshielded targets at point blank range, and cause heavy damage further away.
They're only good for removing removable cover.

But they also do guaranteed damage, which is huge in this game. If grenades were made to be more powerful, the number one tactic would just be running a full crew of grenadiers and just grenading everything.

[Amanoob105]

Originally posted by Sindorei:

Grenades only do laughable damage, if it was even remotely realistic they would 1-shot unarmored and unshielded targets at point blank range, and cause heavy damage further away.
They're only good for removing removable cover.

Realistically this is a strategy game, not real life. A good 90%+ of this game is unrealistic, or did you miss the aliens, plasma weapons and giant flying ship?

Grenades are good for a number of reasons.
Shredding armor, so follow up shots can do more damage.
Blowing up cover, so follow up shots have more chance to both hit and crit.
Finally as mentioned above, guaranteed damage.
And this isn't even listing off all the many other things the additional grenade types can do.

Much like the class they share a name with, while they're not the best for outright killing targets, they are best for making the process of killing them much more efficient and reliable.

[zoutzakje]

I have discovered the joy that is 2 EMP bombs in my grenade slot. It turns Sectopods into a non-issue. Acid Bomb in a utility slot and Mindshield in another utility slot. By the time they run out of grenades, the hardest part of the mission should be over.
Bluescreen ammo I give to the sniper.
I've only won a Veteran game so far though, so I can't comment on higher difficulties. I'm now halfway through June in Commander difficulty and still happily blasting/chaingunning away with 1-2 Grenadiers in my squad.