This game should be renamed to "Edge of Tomorrow" (Live. Die. Repeat).

[ColorsFade]

I understand this is an old topic; but it's a new take on the rant; move along if you don't want to read it

This game should be renamed to "Edge of Tomorrow" (Live. Die. Repeat.)

Because it functions exactly like that film's battle sequence.

And this is all due to the pre-rolled RNG. It makes playing the game with in-mission save (or save scumming, if you prefer that term) exactly like Tom Cruise walking his way through Operation Downfall in the film EDGE OF TOMORROW.

It's not about doing the right thing, or the smart thing, or what you think the most effective choice is for each soldier every turn.

It's about guessing the successful order of the RNG's pre-rolled outcomes.

And that's garbage.

The pre-rolled RNG means that all the fancy data about an individual shot's chance to hit (cover, elevation, etc) is actually completely meaningless. It's not real data; it's not true. It has no bearing on the success of a shot. Because the RNG has rolled all the dice beforehand. So the outcome of every action, move, and shot is already known.

The effect this has on the game - at least for anyone who understands this - is that you can no longer play logical, smart, efficient moves to win; you're playing against pre-determined outcomes. You have to guess the correct sequence of events.

And this gets borne out when you start to reload saves to figure out the optimal paths through a mission.

You can have a soldier behind full cover, elevated, with Aid Protocol giving him a +20 to Defense. But he'll get hit from lower elevation by a wounded enemy 30 yards away because the game has already determine that particular action's chance of success. The only way to get that soldier to survive to the next round is to actually do the illogical thing and not use Aid Protocol on him and move him somewhere else to lower elevation. The effect this has on the player makes the player not want to even use special abilities like Aid Protocol, because what's the point? The game has already determined if the action is successful or not, and no amount of save scumming is going to change the result.

You can have a soldier behind full cover, flanking an enemy, with 95% chance to hit (which, again, for clarity, is actually false) and your guy is going to miss - every single time no matter how many saves you reload - because the game has pre-rolled the outcome of that move and that action at that square.

Which means that, for that turn, your best choice was NOT to flank that enemy and take that shot, even though your brain knows that, logically, that was the smartest play.

Get where I'm going with this?

Pre-rolled RNG means you're can't be playing the percentages to try and win (and if you are, you're losing).

You're really playing against a sequence of pre-determined events. You're playing GROUNDHOGS DAY.

It means that every part of your brain that tells you this sequence of events is the most logical and will provide the highest chance of success on this turn is actually not true.

The end result is this: if you want to get through missions with no soldiers dead and few wounded, you cannot play to the logic of your soldier's abilities, position and skills. You can't play smart because it doesn't matter. You have to play - you have to guess, really - what the correct sequence of events is. You have to LIVE. DIE. REPEAT. until you figure out the most optimal sequence of actions to take to get through the mission.

Now, of course, you can blind yourself to the fact that this is happening; you can pretend it's not true. You can look at the Chance-To-Hit calculation and think it's actually meaningful.

But it's not.

Maybe that helps you get through the game.

But when you understand how it all works beneath the hood, and you realize you're in a simulator for EDGE OF TOMORROW, you then realize your only real job every mission is to guess the right sequence of successful events, no matter how illogical some of those choices may be, it makes the whole thing pretty disappointing.

I think players play tactical, turn-based games because they want to be rewarded for smart play. They want to be rewarded for learning the systems, the classes, the special abilities, and they want to put that knowledge to action and be rewarded with victory.

But you're not really rewarded for that knowledge in this game. And if you think you ARE being rewarded - just remember: the outcome of every single mission action is pre-determined. You might think you're being smart, but all that's really happening is your stepping your foot onto the ground and NOT landing on a land-mine.

When you are having a successful mission, you're accidentally guessing the correct sequence of events.

Think about that for a hot minute.

I seriously hope Firaxis reconsiders this model of calculation for XCOM 3, if they ever decide to do another one. I'm not interested in playing the video game variant of EDGE OF TOMORROW. I'm not interested in guessing my way through every scenario, trying to figure out the most illogical, but successful, series of moves to make to survive and win.

And if this is your solution to "save scumming" - and you don't want players to do it - then don't provide in-mission saves. Do what other games do that really want to limit saves: use checkpoint saves. Sure, they suck, but if your whole point is to remove save-scumming from the game, this is a poor choice for doing it. Heck, remove saves altogether if you don't want players saving during a mission. At least be honest about what you're trying to accomplish and the kind of game you're really trying to make here.

This is a GROUNDHOGS DAY simulator. And players are not rewarded for smart play.

That's kind of a terrible way to make a turn-based tactical combat game.

[The Infinite Archiver]

I don't really experience any of the 'pre-determined outcomes' you describe, I was fighting the Chosen Assassin a while back and did reload once due to having a unit killed, but I did mostly the same actions (except for one where I saved my unit that was going to die, but even then it's my preferance of doing a no-unit death campaign, since I treasure my units too much)

From my experience I stayed logical and safe and came out just fine, couldn't see any major issues like the ones you described in my playtime, and let's be honest, even a 99% chance can still miss, and it will happen, but even the enemies can miss, plus it'd be a bit boring and annoying if every shot hit, especially from Chosen/High damage enemies.

And yes, reloading a save a few Turns ago enemies do seem to do the same actions of moving or attacking, but I guess it's the AI believing it's the most best choice it has, even if you move your Units and make the AI seem a bit dumb for doing the same move that just got made less effective by your movements.

On my end flanking is quite successful, I make sure I use a Unit like a Ranger with their melee or a shotgun, or close-combat effective weapons, it does miss sometimes but it's mostly how risk works, always a chance it might screw up, and a chance it'll be the biggest boom in your favor.

And yes, there are the occasional times an enemy fires at a Unit successfully in full cover, but then again, that would make a rather cheezy meta that by standing behind full cover you'll never get hit.

Overall, perhaps it's just your experience of how the percentage chance goes? Or it could be other things in-game, maybe using certain Units with specialisations/weapons that aren't good for certain ranges?

[Rion]

It's a game about playing with risks and minimizing them. The thing is - weapon damage range is too big so on top of a CHANCE to hit target you need to actually roll decent damage numbers and that can make you nervous. You can try Hard West if you like more 'tactic' approach but honestly this game is incredibly boring on so many levels with their predictable chances.

Think about it this way - you are going mission after mission after mission and then one of your squadmates got hit. He's bleeding and dying. You need to quickly kill the enemy to secure evac spot. You run to flank an enemy, take a deep breath thinking that you did this billion times and then you just ♥♥♥♥ it up because you are damn human and got scared of missing the shot.

TL;DR: You can manipulate RNG. That's more than enough to win the game on hardest difficulties without using any saves. You just have to... I dunno... Deal with it?

[The Infinite Archiver]

This all being said, I'm pretty used to the pains of Missing shots and so forth, playing Miyazaki's pain-train games tends to harden your resolve.. Mostly.

[Infinite Monkeys]

Boy will you be disappointed the day you read about hard determinism.

https://imgflip.com/i/386916

[LukanGamer]

There are beyond worse RNG games that are actually massively RNG and game over you like no tommorow or least prevent ending.
If you think this game is really that much about RNG you need to go educate yourself both on other games and learning how to play this easy game.
(didnt bother reading much of the giant rant).

[ColorsFade]

Originally posted by Chosen Hunter:

I don't really experience any of the 'pre-determined outcomes' you describe, I was fighting the Chosen Assassin a while back and did reload once due to having a unit killed, but I did mostly the same actions (except for one

And that's why your outcome was different. If you would have done everything exactly the same you would have got the exact same outcome.

That's what I'm talking about.

What should happen is you should be able to take the same actions, but the dice roll for chance to hit should take place during the actual shot. If that were the case, every shot would be true according to the percentage chance you had to hit. If you had an 80% chance to hit, you could save the game on that shot and reload 100 times, and roughly 80% of the time you'd hit.

But that doesn't happen here, because all the actions are pre-determined.

That's what I'm saying.

Try it sometime. Save before a turn. Take the exact same actions - same movements, same ORDER of soldier actions, same shots. You'll get the same outcome every time.

Overall, perhaps it's just your experience of how the percentage chance goes? Or it could be other things in-game, maybe using certain Units with specialisations/weapons that aren't good for certain ranges?

You're missing the point. Like it flew right over you man.

The outcomes are pre-determined. Once you understand this, it will change your perception of the game.

[ColorsFade]

Originally posted by LukanGamer:

There are beyond worse RNG games that are actually massively RNG and game over you like no tommorow or least prevent ending.
If you think this game is really that much about RNG you need to go educate yourself both on other games and learning how to play this easy game.
(didnt bother reading much of the giant rant).

Then your comment is null and void.

Read the critique. Understand the mechanics of how the RNG works. It does not work the way you think it works.

I've been playing RNG games all my life. D&D is probably the biggest RNG there is. But at least it's a true RNG per attack. You could re-roll and get a different outcome. That's RNG. Sure, it's frustrating to miss an attack in D&D, but at least you know it's just honest bad luck. You had a bad roll. You move on.

XCOM 2 isn't RNG on a per-attack basis. It's a RNG on a whole board. Every move is pre-determined from the jump. It's a guessing game, not a tactical one.

That is a different beast. And it's not rewarding to the player.

Read my critique. It's not just a mindless rant. I'm explaining how this really works.

[ColorsFade]

Originally posted by Anoxic event:

Boy will you be disappointed the day you read about hard determinism.

Moist Robots. I get it. Already aware.

Irrelevant to this discussion.

[ColorsFade]

Originally posted by DriveAxe:

It's a game about playing with risks and minimizing them.

But that's the thing - it's not. If it were about that, then your choice would matter. Your knowledge would matter.

Do you get how the system actually works? Did you read anything I wrote?

The whole board is pre-rolled.

Originally posted by DriveAxe:

TL;DR: You can manipulate RNG. That's more than enough to win the game on hardest difficulties without using any saves. You just have to... I dunno... Deal with it?

But you can't. You can't manipulate it. It's pre-rolled. It's giving you the illusion that you can manipulate it. But all you can do is keep save scumming until you find the correct sequence of moves and actions that yield success.

What you're doing is standing on the letter puzzle at the end of INDIANA JONES AND THE LAST CRUSADE, only you don't know what word will get you across safely. So you have to guess. Which stone is going to be successful, and which one means death? You can't know. And no amount of game knowledge or playing smart is going to give you an advantage.

[Cyber Von Cyberus]

If you don't want to ruin your game by savescuming then have some restraint or play in Ironman mode, also what's the difference if the next number roll is pre generated or if it is generated once you take the action ?
You can't see which number has been rolled (or at least you aren't supposed to unless you use a cheaty method) so either way the outcome is random.

Lets compare this to a DnD game where the gamemaster is the one who does all of the dicerolls:

If the GM decides to prepare a single diceroll for the next action (this is assuming the GM won't cheat and completely hides the results from his players) and applies it to whatever skill check comes up then it is the same as if he rolled the dice right when a skill check comes up.

[Rion]

Yes, you can. If you consider playing a game without saves that's it. In that case it doesn't actually matter if you take a shot after game rolled the dice or if it rolls the dice when you take a shot. It's a dice roll nonetheless. And if you save scum then... what? If you keep doing the same thing at the same time without changing any input parameters - you'll get the same outcome. Sounds logical.

And you always have a multiple choices. Some are good, some are bad. There is no such a thing as one unique chain of succesful decisions that can carry you through. Sometimes something goes wrong and you have to react and adapt. And that's where you can play smart. Game knowledge not giving any advantage? Enemies have patterns. You can predict their moves and act accordingly.

[Cyber Von Cyberus]

Originally posted by ColorsFade:

Try it sometime. Save before a turn. Take the exact same actions - same movements, same ORDER of soldier actions, same shots. You'll get the same outcome every time.

Once you decide to savescum then you and you alone is responsible for whatever unsatisfaction you may feel afterwards as you consciously made the choice of cheating.

This is like rerolling the dice until you succeed if you fail an action in DnD, you are not supposed to do that.

[The Infinite Archiver]

So basically.. from the response to my comment, OP is repeating the same tactics over the same saves and reloading...

Perhaps it's just bad luck, or perhaps you should try a different approach than repeating the same tactic that clearly isn't all too good.

[Cyber Von Cyberus]

Originally posted by Chosen Hunter:

So basically.. from the response to my comment, OP is repeating the same tactics over the same saves and reloading...

Perhaps it's just bad luck, or perhaps you should try a different approach than repeating the same tactic that clearly isn't all too good.

Yep, basically he's saying the game is dull because he has no control over his savescum addiction

[The Infinite Archiver]

I use Turn Autosaves (don't know if that's what the 'savescum' naming is all about) all the time, sometimes I think a turn that turns out horribly could of been lessened in severity, so I do a small retry of it, nothing wrong with giving a second go of turning the tables.

And regular saves, mostly due to crashes since i've roughly 130 Mods installed..