Anyone else feel that templars should be immune to mind control?

[Explodium]

Or at least more resistant to Psi attacks? It feels odd that the hokey psi cult with their whole focus and discipline thing would be just as vulnerable as any other Joe Schmoe.

They even say "We are trained to resist that!" if a Psi attack fails.

[Lemurian1972]

Considering how often they get Fortress to go along with Parry/Deflect, I'm not really bothered by them needing a Mind Shield on the regular (they need some kind of weak point and I'm much happier being able to run them through fire, poison, explosions). Since I go out of my way to make them a high priority target already, the Mind Shield more than pays off in blocked MCs.

Also since I've seen them get Fortress and Sustain, my guess is it is at least theoretically possible for them to get Solace as well, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

[talemore]

Nah, what the templar need is a slot to have a mindshield or else you have to have a carrier unit who holds all the medkits and flashbang carrier to remove the mindcontrol. A second slot for a templar, them don't gain any great traits for ultility items neither. This way you can for once put an armor padding and ammo rounds or a medkit and mindshield. Least to be said it's probably better to let it be like it is because there's always someone who will complain about how all their mods broke only to change a stat.

[JaegerBane]

I'm not sure I see the logic that simply being psychic means you should be resistant to mind control - it's not like they have any specific abilities regarding it, regardless of what they say when they pass an MC check. If anything, the Templars, being a cult (which aren't typically made up of mentally strong people), sound like an argument could be made that they’re vulnerable to it.

I mean, XCOM's Psi Operatives are fully trained soldiers who've put themselves through massive mental ordeals and even they only gain an immunity if they specifically train to deploy such an ability.

Having said that, we don't know enough about the lore behind Templars to judge whether they should have Solace or not available to train. Realistically the whole 'mind buff' thing is more a Psi Operative schtick then Templar's wild psychic. I can't see any reason why their Will should be the same level as mundane humans, though.

[Ygolnac]

For me they are fine as they are. You can wipe a pod with a trained templar, but in doing so it may get stranded from the rest of the party and get mind controlled. Since it can parry and possibly deflect a phisical attack, lets leave a weakness or two to this class.

[Algol]

Originally posted by JaegerBane:

If anything, the Templars, being a cult (which aren't typically made up of mentally strong people), sound like an argument could be made that they’re vulnerable to it.

I mean, XCOM's Psi Operatives are fully trained soldiers who've put themselves through massive mental ordeals and even they only gain an immunity if they specifically train to deploy such an ability.

Templars ARE fomer XCOM's Psi Operatives, who escaped after the defeat in the initial invasion.

[TheSuit]

I don't think they need total immunity - but should be much much harder to MC.

[[HKG]hkwh01]

mind shield?

[JaegerBane]

Originally posted by Algol:

Originally posted by JaegerBane:

If anything, the Templars, being a cult (which aren't typically made up of mentally strong people), sound like an argument could be made that they’re vulnerable to it.

I mean, XCOM's Psi Operatives are fully trained soldiers who've put themselves through massive mental ordeals and even they only gain an immunity if they specifically train to deploy such an ability.

Templars ARE fomer XCOM's Psi Operatives, who escaped after the defeat in the initial invasion.

Not sure where you got that from. Geist (and presumably his inner circle) were recruits to XCOM who underwent the initial procedures but ended up having to scarper when the base fell. As a result they’ve had no real ‘formal’ training... which is why they don’t have any of the Psi Op’s skills to begin with and only learn a few later.

The actual ‘Psi Operatives’ in the game didn’t exist at the time of the original invasion, as they’re a product of Tygan’s research.

[Explodium]

Originally posted by JaegerBane:

Originally posted by Algol:

Templars ARE fomer XCOM's Psi Operatives, who escaped after the defeat in the initial invasion.

Not sure where you got that from. Geist (and presumably his inner circle) were recruits to XCOM who underwent the initial procedures but ended up having to scarper when the base fell. As a result they’ve had no real ‘formal’ training... which is why they don’t have any of the Psi Op’s skills to begin with and only learn a few later.

The actual ‘Psi Operatives’ in the game didn’t exist at the time of the original invasion, as they’re a product of Tygan’s research.

Considering the Templars have been doing...whatever they've been doing for 20 years, how it only takes a couple weeks for a Psi-Op to get solace, and that protecting THE POWAH from the alien invaders seems to be high on their list of priorities, training their minds to resist the aliens' influence still seems like something they would do as part of whatever training they have.

[Lemurian1972]

Originally posted by Explodium:

Originally posted by JaegerBane:

Not sure where you got that from. Geist (and presumably his inner circle) were recruits to XCOM who underwent the initial procedures but ended up having to scarper when the base fell. As a result they’ve had no real ‘formal’ training... which is why they don’t have any of the Psi Op’s skills to begin with and only learn a few later.

The actual ‘Psi Operatives’ in the game didn’t exist at the time of the original invasion, as they’re a product of Tygan’s research.

Considering the Templars have been doing...whatever they've been doing for 20 years, how it only takes a couple weeks for a Psi-Op to get solace, and that protecting THE POWAH from the alien invaders seems to be high on their list of priorities, training their minds to resist the aliens' influence still seems like something they would do as part of whatever training they have.

Trade offs. Solace, just based on its name, doesn't really seem like something the psionic cult that chose to focus on manifesting foot long blades from their arms would bother with. Too passive. Remember, not even the Commander's Avatar gets Solace "just because" Yeah he gets a nice bucket of Will, but it's not like he (or the Templars) are as tuned and altered by psionics as say the Chosen or the Elders themselves.

Like I said before, it would be nice if it were in the pool for bonus abilities, but no way do I think they deserve it by default or as part of their guaranteed tree.

And at the end of the day I've never had anything I was so desperate to equip them with that I didn't think a Mind Shield was better. In fact, I'm glad for the Templars because as it was I was continually forgetting to use mind shields, or they got put on someone who never got targeted. Now I have a class with a slot for a Mind Shield and they're begging to get hit, by design.

[Explodium]

Originally posted by Lemurian1972:

Trade offs. Solace, just based on its name, doesn't really seem like something the psionic cult that chose to focus on manifesting foot long blades from their arms would bother with. Too passive. Remember, not even the Commander's Avatar gets Solace "just because" Yeah he gets a nice bucket of Will, but it's not like he (or the Templars) are as tuned and altered by psionics as say the Chosen or the Elders themselves.

Like I said before, it would be nice if it were in the pool for bonus abilities, but no way do I think they deserve it by default or as part of their guaranteed tree.

And at the end of the day I've never had anything I was so desperate to equip them with that I didn't think a Mind Shield was better. In fact, I'm glad for the Templars because as it was I was continually forgetting to use mind shields, or they got put on someone who never got targeted. Now I have a class with a slot for a Mind Shield and they're begging to get hit, by design.

The point I was trying to make was if you can get a soldier that is immune to mind control over the course of two weeks of training, a psionic faction that has been operating for 20 years thats obsessed with defending the POWAH from the aliens should at least be trained to be more resistant.

[Wintervoid]

Originally posted by Explodium:

The point I was trying to make was if you can get a soldier that is immune to mind control over the course of two weeks of training, a psionic faction that has been operating for 20 years thats obsessed with defending the POWAH from the aliens should at least be trained to be more resistant.

If you go down that rabbit hole, shouldn't they also have Dominate or Rift Storm?

Look at it this way, Psi use Psionic energy to mainly attack the opponents mind, and they also learn how to defend against it. A Templar learns how to form Psi into more physical manifestations, and they learn how to defend with more physical manifestations (Parry).

[erdagon]

Originally posted by Explodium:

The point I was trying to make was if you can get a soldier that is immune to mind control over the course of two weeks of training, a psionic faction that has been operating for 20 years thats obsessed with defending the POWAH from the aliens should at least be trained to be more resistant.

I agree . They are the so called masters of the Psionics , yet your own trained troops are much better at that than a faction who does nothing esle every day for 20y .... Well , I feel like all resistance factions are under performing compared to X-Com troops .

[erdagon]

Originally posted by Wintervoid:

If you go down that rabbit hole, shouldn't they also have Dominate or Rift Storm?

So , you're saying then it should be as easy to mindcontrol an Ethereal Avatar as it is to mindcontrol a Sectoid ?

Originally posted by Wintervoid:

Look at it this way, Psi use Psionic energy to mainly attack the opponents mind, and they also learn how to defend against it. A Templar learns how to form Psi into more physical manifestations, and they learn how to defend with more physical manifestations (Parry).

Still doesn't mean that their minds shouldn't be better trained to resist MC than the one of X-Com troops .

[JaegerBane]

Originally posted by Explodium:

Considering the Templars have been doing...whatever they've been doing for 20 years, how it only takes a couple weeks for a Psi-Op to get solace, and that protecting THE POWAH from the alien invaders seems to be high on their list of priorities, training their minds to resist the aliens' influence still seems like something they would do as part of whatever training they have.

The Templar have been 'doing whatever they've been doing' without the aid of any labs or scientific understanding of their abilities, and have largely been focused on their own survival and this cult they've created. Hell, Geist didn't even remember who he was, let alone the specifics of how his abilities worked.

By comparison, by the point XCOM gets its Psi Lab up and running, it more or less knows exactly how Psionics works, and hence makes vastly more progress. Same reason why the Resistance hasn't figured out how to reverse-engineer ADVENT magnetic weaponry.

I can easily see that this polar opposite background could result in the two groups training completely different abilities, and the Templar don't even focus on the same use of Psionics that Psi Ops do.

Hell, you don't even need to be psychic to resist psychic attacks in the first place.

It's fair enough that Templar serving with XCOM learn can pick up a few tricks from the Psi Ops and scientists but expecting them to grab an ability that realistically has no real overlap with their own training is a bit of a stretch.