Final Mission WOTC (Reaper vs Skirmisher vs Templar vs Psi Op vs Spark or None)

[BoydofZINJ]

In the Final Mission, if you could only bring ONE... which one would you bring - and WHY?

I am playing on Legendary Difficulty. No save scumming during missions.

Reaper vs Skirmisher vs Templar vs Psi Op vs Spark or None of them.

Personally, a strong Psi Op can be useful in the final mission with aliens and baddies all over the place - but the commander fills that role too.

Spark is nice, but seems to be easily targetted and almost impossible to repair - i did not take the repair skill.

Reaper - I LOVE my Reaper, but in the final mission i dont need a hidden assassin do i?

Templar, seems a bit lack luster.

Skirmisher, I got some lucky skills on my original Skirmisher and he seems pretty solid - but ultimately speaking he just fires twice... is that worth a slot?!

[Fredericks of Cursewood]

The last time I went through was this: 2 Rangers, Grenadier, Specialist, Sharpshooter, and Psi Ops.

Both Rangers had Serial and mobility of 18 and 16. Grenadier had Run and Gun.

Psi Op never even got a chance to Dominate anything.

Was almost a Flawless mission other than the Specialist getting hit once early in the mission. This was on Commander Ironman.

I was planning on bringing a Templer, but when I got my squad put together, there wasn't any room.

[Abrakadabra]

Very interesting what evybody chooses as their most elite endgame squad and why they choose it.

Im a big fan of the Reaper but scouting isnt as important in the final mission. All the enemies are coming your way anyway, its more about killing stuff quickly and as powerful as the reaper is, it aint the best option when it comes to taking out big armies. At least not wave after wave.

My final squad is 3 grenadiers, ranger, sniper, specialist, psi op and the commander's avatar. I play with a squad of 7. Heavy emphasis on grenadiers. They always the backbone of my squads. In a scenario where you fight vast numbers a psi op is the better option. Gives you a potentially very very tanky bullet sponge by hacking something like a gatekeeper, can panic/mindcontrol/berserk etc. multiple enemies with voidrift which has a cooldown so you might be able to use it multiple times, has great direct dmg abilities that punch straight through armor. Can safe one of your soldiers via stasis, gives everybody immunity to mental attacks....its a formidable class.

If its not about guerilla warfare style, hit and run missions but only about taking out a ton of incoming high health pods then a psi op is the better addition to your squad.

[red255]

so yeah, final mission is a victory lap

I normally take 1 sniper, 2 psi ops, 1 reaper, 1 ranger and 1 specialist.

the ranger, sharpshooter and specialist are to use the chosen weapons. they are chosen from the pool with the most broken of extra perks. my ranger for instance has serial, death from above, shredder ammo, blast padding and holo target.

my sharpshooter has um shredder ammo, run and gun, I can't remember, but its a good unit.

the specialist is what has the highest hack score.

the two psi ops are well suited for the final mission as they can leech enemy life with soul steal and their abilities are on cool down. so they are suited for long missions. they wear a war suit with a dodge PCS and plated armor, and a blaster launcher. the ranger has talon rounds but otherwise similiar.

the reaper is there to scout. if I didnt have the reaper, it would still be fine. just use the Avatar unit's mind control to scout. take a second sniper,

the mission is in two stages, the first stage we go forward scouting with the reaper. things show up we trigger combat with long watch from the sharpshooter, and deal with it with our psi op abilities off cooldown. we don't use consumables.... just safely pulling and annilating everything. no timer. take your time.

we get to the final area. hopefully. we got an avatar guarded by some archons. we murder them. take positions on the left and right towers. to use death from above.

we sit up there murdering aliens as they spawn in. death from above, bladestorm, serial, second avatar comes down, 3 rounds of holding our ground, third and final avatar shows up. we blaster bomb it, it teleports randomly. attach a homing mine to it Fan fire, GG. roll credits.
--

so for your question.
a psi op means you can safe yourself from those various alien mental ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, but so do soldier bonds so not the biggest of things at that point, level 3 bonds. it also means you got cooldown abilities that suit well for long missions.

the reaper, is an excellent scout, the homing mine is an auto hit. you get a pair of them. there are 2 Avatars who need to die to win the game.....see where we are going with this. homing mine +plasma with shredder ammo is like 5 points of shred I think. even if the grenadier has poor aim, Rupture, and the thing is roasted

the skirmisher isn't suited for this mission type. skirmisher....I use mainly as a sacrifice scout, it dies I get another one. its designed to be shot at. not really something you want on a long mission unless you are RP'ing star trek and need a designated redshirt.

the Templar.....if you get fortress, bladestorm, lightning hands, reaper, things a pretty solid unit, and you can keep dismissing them and recruiting new ones until you do in fact get a pretty solid unit. without bladestorm no. with bladestorm and fortress, I'm not sure anything outside mind control or psi or blazing pinions (I thought that was explosive damage but nope, it hurts you thru fortress) you can't even be hurt thru parry and fortress. it can clone itself for the final area to increase your firepower. except it probably cant since you dont get advent corpses there? are the avatar corpses usable for this? that would be style points, using the avatars corpse to kill the other two avatars.

the SPARK without mods is lack luster. it doesnt get the training center cheese, its not a SUPER soldier.

[Abrakadabra]

Im always a bit disappointed with the final mission I must admit though. Not totally disappointed but a bit.

[krabdr]

I forgot to mention that I like bringing psy-ops on the final missions because they're AoE is rechargeable, unlike grenadiers whose grenades run out. My strategy on the first mission of this scenario is very carefully conserve all other AoEs and just move up very slowly using the Commander's and my PsyOps AoEs to weaken or kill pods one at a time. When you do the final room, you'll have all of your cool-downs, grenades, claymores, etc. ready for action against the triumvirate.

[Abrakadabra]

Originally posted by krabdr:

I forgot to mention that I like bringing psy-ops on the final missions because they're AoE is rechargeable, unlike grenadiers whose grenades run out. My strategy on the first mission of this scenario is very carefully conserve all other AoEs and just move up very slowly using the Commander's and my PsyOps AoEs to weaken or kill pods one at a time. When you do the final room, you'll have all of your cool-downs, grenades, claymores, etc. ready for action against the triumvirate.

Grenadiers have saturation fire for aoe as well. I bring them for the bonus skills they can roll though. In the zone and serial. Psi ops are pretty good but would have no hope of competing with such grenadiers in terms of dmg output. They can kill huge numbers with those bonus skills. I need those skills and the dmg for some of the mods I play with.

One psi op is good in my squad. But theyre not the dmg dealers.

[Fredericks of Cursewood]

None of the faction units are very good for end game. Rangers, Grenadiers, and Sharpshooters all surpass them in damage at Colonel level.

There are only two things that matter in the final mission:

1: Cutting through a bunch of HP.
2: Not getting mind controlled

Ranger with Talon Round and mind shield can safely take out 15 HP a turn and can go much higher by clearing out whole pods if they have Serial.

Grenadiers with Blue Screen rounds and mind shield can take out any mechanical unit up to Sectopods which they can almost solo kill. If you get Run and Gun on them, they are close to Rangers as far as raw killing power.

Sharpshooters with Dragon rounds and mind shield can take 30 HP in a turn. You can put up to 5 pistol shots onto a target when the pistol does 7-10(Darkclaw + Dragon Rounds + Research Breakthroughs) damage per shot plus a high chance to crit. If the Sharpshooter has Run and Gun, it's pretty easy to get 4 shots on a flanked enemy which should do around 40 HP of damage on one enemy. That's not even using their main weapon. That's not a one and done. They can do that every several turns and in between turns go back and use the Sniper Rifle.

None of the faction classes really come close to this level of being able to grind through a mountain of HP turn after turn. Having only 1 equipment slot and in the case of Reapers having no slot by default is a real detriment. Not being able to equip mind shields along with an ammo is serious negative and is a good reason to leave them all in the Avenger on the final mission.

[Abrakadabra]

Originally posted by Fredericks of Cursewood:

None of the faction units are very good for end game. Rangers, Grenadiers, and Sharpshooters all surpass them in damage at Colonel level.

There are only two things that matter in the final mission:

1: Cutting through a bunch of HP.
2: Not getting mind controlled

Ranger with Talon Round and mind shield can safely take out 15 HP a turn and can go much higher by clearing out whole pods if they have Serial.

Grenadiers with Blue Screen rounds and mind shield can take out any mechanical unit up to Sectopods which they can almost solo kill. If you get Run and Gun on them, they are close to Rangers as far as raw killing power.

Sharpshooters with Dragon rounds and mind shield can take 30 HP in a turn. You can put up to 5 pistol shots onto a target when the pistol does 7-10(Darkclaw + Dragon Rounds + Research Breakthroughs) damage per shot plus a high chance to crit. If the Sharpshooter has Run and Gun, it's pretty easy to get 4 shots on a flanked enemy which should do around 40 HP of damage on one enemy. That's not even using their main weapon. That's not a one and done. They can do that every several turns and in between turns go back and use the Sniper Rifle.

None of the faction classes really come close to this level of being able to grind through a mountain of HP turn after turn. Having only 1 equipment slot and in the case of Reapers having no slot by default is a real detriment. Not being able to equip mind shields along with an ammo is serious negative and is a good reason to leave them all in the Avenger on the final mission.

I agree that the faction soldiers cant compete in terms of dmg output. But ive been a fan of grenadiers and sharspshooters since day one. Specialists too ss well as rangers. Grenadiers are my single favorit class though. Theyre just evil xeno destroyers.

[Gin-chan]

Originally posted by Fredericks of Cursewood:

None of the faction units are very good for end game. Rangers, Grenadiers, and Sharpshooters all surpass them in damage at Colonel level.

There are only two things that matter in the final mission:

1: Cutting through a bunch of HP.
2: Not getting mind controlled

Ranger with Talon Round and mind shield can safely take out 15 HP a turn and can go much higher by clearing out whole pods if they have Serial.

Grenadiers with Blue Screen rounds and mind shield can take out any mechanical unit up to Sectopods which they can almost solo kill. If you get Run and Gun on them, they are close to Rangers as far as raw killing power.

Sharpshooters with Dragon rounds and mind shield can take 30 HP in a turn. You can put up to 5 pistol shots onto a target when the pistol does 7-10(Darkclaw + Dragon Rounds + Research Breakthroughs) damage per shot plus a high chance to crit. If the Sharpshooter has Run and Gun, it's pretty easy to get 4 shots on a flanked enemy which should do around 40 HP of damage on one enemy. That's not even using their main weapon. That's not a one and done. They can do that every several turns and in between turns go back and use the Sniper Rifle.

None of the faction classes really come close to this level of being able to grind through a mountain of HP turn after turn. Having only 1 equipment slot and in the case of Reapers having no slot by default is a real detriment. Not being able to equip mind shields along with an ammo is serious negative and is a good reason to leave them all in the Avenger on the final mission.

By endgame Reapers are essentially perma stealthed when you know how to use em. So yeah they wont be mind controlled if they're never seen .

[Fredericks of Cursewood]

Perma stealth? Meaning don't kill anything? I think you miss the whole point. You have waves of enemies and often need to dispatch of 100+ HP in a turn. Having a unit sit in the corner with a thumb in their ***, doesn't help the cause.

Claymore is severely underpowered by the late game. Vektor Rifle is always underpowered and even more so in the late game compared Chosen Weapons that you get for the base soldiers..

On top of that, stat progression kind of sucks. It is kind of funny how Volk claims how much better Reapers are at shooting than the best XCOM Sharpshooters. By game end, it could not be farther from the truth.

[Gin-chan]

Originally posted by Fredericks of Cursewood:

Perma stealth? Meaning don't kill anything? I think you miss the whole point. You have waves of enemies and often need to dispatch of 100+ HP in a turn. Having a unit sit in the corner with a thumb in their ***, doesn't help the cause.

Claymore is severely underpowered by the late game. Vektor Rifle is always underpowered and even more so in the late game compared Chosen Weapons that you get for the base soldiers..

On top of that, stat progression kind of sucks. It is kind of funny how Volk claims how much better Reapers are at shooting than the best XCOM Sharpshooters. By game end, it could not be farther from the truth.

you do realise endgame Reapers stay in stealth with each killshot .they also have multiple ways to kill/damage without breaking stealth. lmao.

[Fringehunter7719]

Reapers can kill and stay permanently in stealth by using silent killer to keep their destealth chance at 0%. If you get a reaper with an inventory slot (a little over 50% chance per reaper recruited), and go with laser sights and talon rounds then you can get the minimum shadow lance damage up to about 13-14 against any target that can be flanked, and thus kill a target with up to 13-14 HP remaining each turn.

This isn't particularly good compared to other classes, who are pretty well all looking to launch multiple higher damage attacks per turn, but you will make use of mines with your other action and a single use banish as well, which is significantly better than not killing anything or sitting in the corner.

Even if the reaper drops stealth mind control is a non-issue if you bring a psi op with solace.

I don't have access to the game files to confirm right now, but as I recall reapers also have equal stat progression to sharpshooters, with superior aim to every other class, which is relatively far from sucking.

[Fredericks of Cursewood]

That's providing they get a killshot. That means picking off enemies with low health and not missing. Most enemies at the end have 10+ HP. Vektor Rifle doesn't do enough damage to outright kill something with that much HP. Even something with 8 HP can be min rolled and not killed.

Ranger, Grenadier, and Sharpshooter can wipe out 15 - 30 HP every turn. They don't leave enemies hanging with a few HP for a reaper to clean up on. They wipe it off of the map. That's what you need for the mission.

[Fringehunter7719]

Originally posted by Fredericks of Cursewood:

That's providing they get a killshot. That means picking off enemies with low health and not missing. Most enemies at the end have 10+ HP. Vektor Rifle doesn't do enough damage to outright kill something with that much HP. Even something with 8 HP can be min rolled and not killed.

By the method described in that post, if you go for flankable enemies you can get your minimum damage to 13-14 (depending on blood trail). It's quite a common tactic, certainly more so than sitting in a corner doing nothing.

Reapers don't have the same raw damage output as (most) other classes, it's true, and that last room of the last mission is legitimately one of the few places they don't shine. Nonetheless grenadiers using grenades, sharpshooters using pistol skills and many other classes will leave softened targets for a reaper if they divert their subsequent shots to make the squad most powerful overall.

13 minimum damage (with 2 armor penetration) is enough to kill any alien up to muton from full health anyway.

There's simply no difficulty in finding suitable targets, the problems reapers have in that final room come from other sources.

[Fredericks of Cursewood]

Originally posted by Fringehunter7719:

Originally posted by Fredericks of Cursewood:

That's providing they get a killshot. That means picking off enemies with low health and not missing. Most enemies at the end have 10+ HP. Vektor Rifle doesn't do enough damage to outright kill something with that much HP. Even something with 8 HP can be min rolled and not killed.

By the method described in that post, if you go for flankable enemies you can get your minimum damage to 13-14 (depending on blood trail). It's quite a common tactic, certainly more so than sitting in a corner doing nothing.

Reapers don't have the same raw damage output as (most) other classes, it's true, and that last room of the last mission is legitimately one of the few places they don't shine. Nonetheless grenadiers using grenades, sharpshooters using pistol skills and many other classes will leave softened targets for a reaper if they divert their subsequent shots to make the squad most powerful overall.

13 minimum damage (with 2 armor penetration) is enough to kill any alien up to muton from full health anyway.

There's simply no difficulty in finding suitable targets, the problems reapers have in that final room come from other sources.

How do you get that much damage?

I am not Home now to check my game. I looked at a couple of Wikis and neither of them had any information on the Shadow Lance.

I am going off of Uncle Fester's Guide. Shadow Lance does 5-6 base damage which is actually worse than I thought. I thought it would be on par with the Plasma AR which is 7-9.

That probably explains why I have never seen it do more than 10 damage.

Even if it could hit 13 on a Max roll crit, that is barely enough to take out an elite trooper on Commander or Legendary. I really don't even see how that is possible.