[Legend] Breakthroughs: what is worth the research time in early/mid game?

[Tamiore]

First of, I'll be speaking about legend difficulty here, so it may or may not apply for lower difficulties. Second, I'm speaking about early/mid game, since in late game after you have already reseached everything you could down the "main" tech tree there is no downside to doing breakthroughs even for minor bonuses.

Breakthroughs. They take flat 10 days of research, not scaling with # of scientists. Always. This kind of suggests it's better to research them as early as possible while you only have a few scientists. However, early game is also when every day is much more valuable since this is the most difficult part of the game.

I guess most players will agree that there are plently of "bad" breakthroughs (e.g. small discounts for building something) you should never consider, early game or not.

On the other hand, probably overall the best breakthroughs are +1 damage ones. They seem kind of "always worth it" in early game.

But let's do the numbers: mag weapon research takes 42 days with 1 extra scientist (you get one by default around day 14 as mission reward). That's equivalent of 4 breakthroughs. 4 breakthroughs can get you +1 damage to 4 weapon types, however mag weapon research gives you +1/+2 damage AND en extra slot for 4 weapon types. So if you have the resources to get the upgrades right away, mag weapon research is obviously better. Twice so if you get extra scientists while doing it so that it finishes even faster.

So it really feels like the only breakthroughs worth your time in early/mid game are +damage to ALL ballistic/mag weapons. Maybe +1 to a particular weapon type, but ONLY if you know that you use that weapon type MUCH more heavily than the others.

Thoughts?

[Future]

yeah on Legend you just go for the best breakthroughs like +1 damage
i got a +1 damage to snipers early on the campaign, it has been really helpful.

[KRON]

For my legend playthrough I got +1 damage for assault rifles before I even get to mag weapons, and got +1 damage for all beam weapons right after I researched beam weapons. But, the good thing about +1 damage to all weapons of the same tier is really applied to all weapons of the same tier, not just guns(for example, swords, ripjacks and psi-amps are also affected).

[Tamiore]

My argument is that even +1 damage to ONE weapon type breakthroughs are NOT worth it on legend before you got plasma as you will get higher damage faster for your weapons in general if you just go down the main research path of mag/plasma.
Just think about it: you get +1 damage to ONE weapon type at the price of delaying for 10 days +1/2 damage and an extra slot for ALL weapons.

The only exception here would be a situation where for whatever reason you take shots with a particular weapon type much more often than with others.

[red255]

If you pass up on the +1 damage to a specific weapon type you won't see it again till very late game when you are done with all your research.

If you get +1 ballistics +1 Assault Rifles the haven troop guns I believe get upgraded +2 damage.

which helps them get thru armored enemies.

[KRON]

Origineel geplaatst door red255:

If you pass up on the +1 damage to a specific weapon type you won't see it again till very late game when you are done with all your research.

If you get +1 ballistics +1 Assault Rifles the haven troop guns I believe get upgraded +2 damage.

which helps them get thru armored enemies.

Heaven troop guys don't recieve any upgrades due to breakthroughs. The only units which are not XCOM soldiers and which recieve breakthrough upgrades are the turrets from defense matrix.

[Abrakadabra]

I went for any and all +1 weapon breakthrouhgs. Midly worried they wont be available again in the future I took them right away. Even delayed plasma weapons and other stuff to get them. Its awesome though. My snipers do + 2 dmg with snipers and +2 with pistols because of pistol/sniper rifle and also beam weapon breakthroughs. Cannons do + 1. Swords too. And vectors rifles as well.

Its very useful. How often are enemies still alife with one or two health.

Take it.

Forgot shotguns. They do +2 now too.

[mosspit]

I like going for Shotguns, followed by Swords. Then maybe Cannons. The rest can wait. The weapon tiers ones are defintely nice with Mag and Plasma having the best mileage I feel.

[Abrakadabra]

The dmg increase in pistols alone if they get +2 via pistol and beam breakthroughs is insane considering how often you sometimes shoot your pistol with fanfire and al other pistol skills. Thats huge. Snipers are so strong later on. Love them.

[mosspit]

If you're interested in pistols (as well as the all other +1 weapon breakthroughs), you can wait till end game where all +1 weapon breakthroughs will cycle back.

Pistols have very limited use in early game on Legend as Sharpshooters are very weak at that period of the game.

[KRON]

Origineel geplaatst door iluvpumpum:

The dmg increase in pistols alone if they get +2 via pistol and beam breakthroughs is insane considering how often you sometimes shoot your pistol with fanfire and al other pistol skills. Thats huge. Snipers are so strong later on. Love them.

Yes. Darkclaw deals 6-9 damage that way and it's armor piercing. With bluescreen rounds darkclaw is the deadliest weapon against robots.

[Fringehunter7719]

I don't think you can reason it out in the way laid out in the OP.

Take a simple example.

• You're planning to make a research beeline for mag weapons (picking up the odd plot essential like resistance comms on the way) and let's say that means you would get mag weapons on May 1st for some exact distribution of scientist acquisition.
  
• Let's also suppose that before taking breakthroughs into account you will finish all research around Feb 1st in the second year of the campaign (month 11).
  
• Now, within the first few weeks you get a breakthrough choice for pistol damage +1. What does this actually translate to?
  
• Firstly you'll probably push back mag weapons of all kinds by about 9 days. It won't be the full 10, on average, due to the accelerating pace of research as you acquire scientists. So that means for 9 days from May 1st to May 10th you will do 2 points less of damage with all mag weapon types.
  
• Secondly the same will apply to gauss weapons, you'll have a window of 8ish days when you do -2 damage with those weapon types, depending on your choices this is likely to be May or June (and it will be a shorter window the later you do Gauss).
  
• Thirdly the same will apply to beam weapons. The interval is likely to be only 3 or 4 days for each weapon type and again will cost 2 damage during that period.

So the summary is that on average you will have approximately 1 mission in May where half of your squad does 2 less damage per shot than they would otherwise. 1 mission in May-June where the other half of your squad does 2 less damage than they otherwise would have done. And about half a mission per weapon type (except pistols) in the later game where you do 2 damage less with one particular weapon type.

The upside is that in every other mission (until perhaps March or April of the second year) you will do 1 more damage per pistol shot.

So clearly you get a lot more damage overall (assuming you use an average of one pistol user per mission) from taking the breakthrough. The main disadvantage will be that one-ish mission in May where you're dealing a fair bit less damage than you would. It'll be a judgement call on how hard you deem that mission to be compared to the rest of the campaign and how much you use pistols/autopistols.

This kind of argument will hold for every weapon type damage breakthrough. The exact balance of the scales will tip depending on which weapon that is and how you play and utilise your classes. So if you stack rangers, then taking the shotgun breakthrough is going to be much better than not, whereas even if you like grenadiers then since they are mainly using grenades and shredding armor you're losing much less damage by skipping the upgrade point.

The tech level breakthroughs are a very different kettle of fish, since once you upgrade your tech you lose all benefits (except for a point of damage on claymores, I think) and they are a strict short term benefit vs. long term loss situation. The conventional upgrade probably then isn't worth it and if you get into April before it pops and you're going mag first then it's case closed (although if it comes early and you go plated armor before mag, then maybe - again a judgement call). Personally I'd take beam damage upgrade if it comes fairly early because you have beam weapons in the field for a really long time.

Anyway, this all got a bit lengthy, but it was an excellent question!

[Fringehunter7719]

Origineel geplaatst door mosspit:

If you're interested in pistols (as well as the all other +1 weapon breakthroughs), you can wait till end game where all +1 weapon breakthroughs will cycle back.

Pistols have very limited use in early game on Legend as Sharpshooters are very weak at that period of the game.

They are weak very, very early on, but you can't get the breakthrough very very early anyway, as you need to complete at least one research project and a 10 day breakthrough.

Once you get to sergeant/lieutenant pistols are competitive, although some players will still use other resources and not fire them much. There's also templars to consider, as they tend to use their pistol a fair bit until they've levelled a couple of times and you have a reaper to scout.

[mosspit]

Origineel geplaatst door Fringehunter7719:

Origineel geplaatst door mosspit:

If you're interested in pistols (as well as the all other +1 weapon breakthroughs), you can wait till end game where all +1 weapon breakthroughs will cycle back.

Pistols have very limited use in early game on Legend as Sharpshooters are very weak at that period of the game.

They are weak very, very early on, but you can't get the breakthrough very very early anyway, as you need to complete at least one research project and a 10 day breakthrough.

Once you get to sergeant/lieutenant pistols are competitive, although some players will still use other resources and not fire them much. There's also templars to consider, as they tend to use their pistol a fair bit until they've levelled a couple of times and you have a reaper to scout.

Probably, depends on your playstyle. I don't use Sharpshooters much early on, and if I bring them on early I need to babysit them anyways. Templar I would prefer to rend to proc parry most of the time. Can't justify picking up +1 to pistols just for those instances.

I once got +1 to Pistols after my 2nd research, and I skipped them. But yes I eventually picked up the breakthrough during the late game. Because it has way more mileage during then.

[Fringehunter7719]

Origineel geplaatst door mosspit:

Probably, depends on your playstyle. I don't use Sharpshooters much early on, and if I bring them on early I need to babysit them anyways. Templar I would prefer to rend to proc parry most of the time. Can't justify picking up +1 to pistols just for those instances.

I once got +1 to Pistols after my 2nd research, and I skipped them. But yes I eventually picked up the breakthrough during the late game. Because it has way more mileage during then.

It's not really even late game you get them, it's post-game. You have to intentionally prolong the campaign to cycle through breakthroughs once every other research is done. But yeah, if you're not using pistols then the pistol breakthrough won't be worth taking.

From my perspective of playing maybe 40-50 missions with +1 damage per shot (3 per fanfire, perhaps 3 on average per faceoff, a couple of lightning hands a mission and 2 shots in most other attacking rounds otherwise) it's a colossal amount of damage to miss out on over a period that will include three chosen base assaults, at least three alien ruler encounters and most other challenges in the game.

[mosspit]

Origineel geplaatst door Fringehunter7719:

Origineel geplaatst door mosspit:

Probably, depends on your playstyle. I don't use Sharpshooters much early on, and if I bring them on early I need to babysit them anyways. Templar I would prefer to rend to proc parry most of the time. Can't justify picking up +1 to pistols just for those instances.

I once got +1 to Pistols after my 2nd research, and I skipped them. But yes I eventually picked up the breakthrough during the late game. Because it has way more mileage during then.

It's not really even late game you get them, it's post-game. You have to intentionally prolong the campaign to cycle through breakthroughs once every other research is done. But yeah, if you're not using pistols then the pistol breakthrough won't be worth taking.

From my perspective of playing maybe 40-50 missions with +1 damage per shot (3 per fanfire, perhaps 3 on average per faceoff, a couple of lightning hands a mission and 2 shots in most other attacking rounds otherwise) it's a colossal amount of damage to miss out on over a period that will include three chosen base assaults, at least three alien ruler encounters and most other challenges in the game.

I don't get Fanfire until very late into the game anyways cose Col Sharpshooter. And Faceoff isn't something I like using often due to the way I play Sharpshooters. They need to be in range of multiple enemies to maximise it's use which I find I don't get into those situations often. Lightning Hands yes I suppose. Still not worth it imo.