[Legend] Breakthroughs: what is worth the research time in early/mid game?

[Tamiore]

First of, I'll be speaking about legend difficulty here, so it may or may not apply for lower difficulties. Second, I'm speaking about early/mid game, since in late game after you have already reseached everything you could down the "main" tech tree there is no downside to doing breakthroughs even for minor bonuses.

Breakthroughs. They take flat 10 days of research, not scaling with # of scientists. Always. This kind of suggests it's better to research them as early as possible while you only have a few scientists. However, early game is also when every day is much more valuable since this is the most difficult part of the game.

I guess most players will agree that there are plently of "bad" breakthroughs (e.g. small discounts for building something) you should never consider, early game or not.

On the other hand, probably overall the best breakthroughs are +1 damage ones. They seem kind of "always worth it" in early game.

But let's do the numbers: mag weapon research takes 42 days with 1 extra scientist (you get one by default around day 14 as mission reward). That's equivalent of 4 breakthroughs. 4 breakthroughs can get you +1 damage to 4 weapon types, however mag weapon research gives you +1/+2 damage AND en extra slot for 4 weapon types. So if you have the resources to get the upgrades right away, mag weapon research is obviously better. Twice so if you get extra scientists while doing it so that it finishes even faster.

So it really feels like the only breakthroughs worth your time in early/mid game are +damage to ALL ballistic/mag weapons. Maybe +1 to a particular weapon type, but ONLY if you know that you use that weapon type MUCH more heavily than the others.

Thoughts?

[red255]

generally I find I want to research the resistance Comms/Radio so I can plan my expansion before Mag Weapons get started. unsure the timing of it

If you have mag weapons and +2 damage on the mag weapons its essentially beam weapons. for MUCH cheaper. Beam weapons are better but can afford to be delayed if you have mag with bonus damage for an extremely long time.

[Fringehunter7719]

He's right about #1. The example you used in the OP was a conventional weapon breakthrough, and that only takes 10 days compared to the 63/42 days your mag weapons is taking (value for starting it before the second mission and then reducing to the value you gave in the OP after picking up a scientist at day 14ish).

It cannot be right that 30-50 days with +1 damage in early game is insignificant yet 10 days with -1 is significant.

I think we have to be consistent in the situational constraints we are considering. Those constraints will vary from player to player. If we took my constraint then the first 30 days would be the most important and days 30-60 would be most of the rest that really, truly matters in finding a small edge. If we took your constraint of the period between the 2nd and 5th supply drop then that's day 21 to day 105.

In both cases some sets of options have effects after or before those periods, but if our assumptions in one instance are that we downplay or dismiss those effects, we should be consistent and do the same across all options.

He does have a point about alloys too, even getting all you can at the black market you're unlikely to get all you need for all weapon types much before the third supply raid. The list of mag tier costs is:

• Mag Rifle 135 supplies, 20 alloys
  
• Shard Gun 50 supplies, 10 alloys
  
• Mag Cannon 125 supplies, 20 alloys
  
• Mag Sniper Rifle 140 supplies, 20 alloys
  
• Mag Pistol 50 supplies, 10 alloys
  
• Temnotic Rifle 60 supplies, 10 alloys
  
• Mag Bullpup 70 supplies, 15 alloys
  
• Mag autopistol 60 supplies, 5 alloys

Obviously that ignores about half the tier 2 weapons that either arrive through standalone projects, the experimental weapons project or standalone autopsies, but includes those that come from Gauss. You could exclude those, but then at least half your squad doesn't get the +2, which means it has no real advantage over the +1 flat on all conventional weapons, for example.

It all adds up to 690 supplies and 110 alloys, or 560 supplies and 90 alloys if you skip the bullpup and autopistol as well, (and you also need 10 alloys to get started on your armor, if you don't want to delay that which also makes things a lot harder) and you don't just have those alloys lying around. The supplies you can probably scratch together by day 60 or 70 (allowing for those you need for a GTS, Resistance Ring and 3d building, squad size 1 and perhaps a medikit). But that many alloys is unrealistic till later.

[Tamiore]

First off, inspirations aside, the timeline is quite simple:
5 days for modular weapons.
1-2 days of mag reasearch until you get an option to research comms (after mission #2)
Comms start at 12 days and get boosted as you get your scientist at ~ day 13.
Some time after mission #3 and before #4 comms are done, you switch back to mags, they will have around 41 days left to go.
With any luck, you will pick one more scientist, and mags will be done after mission #6-#7.
Mission #6 is the supply raid where you get your alloys and (as a rule) you also unlock black market by that point (to get more alloys). You can't normally start armor until after mission #6 anyway due to alloys.

Now, assuming you play with grim horizon, you REALLY don't want to delay resistance comms, as otherwise you will not be able to contact a new region and chose which dark event to counter in cycle 2.

So the only opening for breakthroughs (before you finish mags) will be right after comms.

It cannot be right that 30-50 days with +1 damage in early game is insignificant yet 10 days with -1 is is significant.

It's 30-40 days of +1 in ONE weapon type vs 10- days (slowly reduced) of delays on ALL future techs, not just 10- days for the first bunch of mags.

As for the alloys, supply raid gives around 40, and you can buy around 20 per cycle of black market, so you will likely have 60 by the time mags are done, +20 by the time gauss are done.
With 10 used for armor, you still have 70 to spare: that's rifles, shard guns, vector rifles and sniper or mag with 10 to spare. Not all tier 2 weapons, but 3/4 base + one or two faction class weapons.
And you will likely get some more alloys from an excavation pretty soon.


All-in-all, I guess one of the most interesting things here is that if you "rush" mags (only do modular and comms before them) you will only get 2 opportunities for breakthroughs, and only one (after comms) can really be taken without pushing critical stuff.

So, in a way, by rushing mags you also insure that AT WORST you miss out on two breakthroughs, and it's extremely unlikely both will be +1 damage ones.

By the way, what exactly unlocks "+1 damage for all tier 2" breakthrough? Mags or gauss or what?

P.S. It's hard to measure precisely, but it's kind of important that mag research gives you rifles that 3 out of 5 base classes can use. So once you get mag rifles you can almost always just take more rookies/rangers/specialists to make use of rifles. While +1 damage breakthrough is random and may land on a weapon you do like, but can't bring many of in early game.

[Fringehunter7719]

Escrito originalmente por Tamiore:

First off, inspirations aside, the timeline is quite simple:
5 days for modular weapons.
1-2 days of mag reasearch until you get an option to research comms (after mission #2)
Comms start at 12 days and get boosted as you get your scientist at ~ day 13.
Some time after mission #3 and before #4 comms are done, you switch back to mags, they will have around 41 days left to go.
With any luck, you will pick one more scientist, and mags will be done after mission #6-#7.

Mission 4 occurs on day 20-21. There's no way you're having mags by mission 6. None.

If you're switching to a project with 41 days left between day 14 and day 20, then it's more realistic to say you're looking at day 55 than day 35.

Escrito originalmente por Tamiore:

Mission #6 is the supply raid where you get your alloys and (as a rule) you also unlock black market by that point (to get more alloys). You can't normally start armor until after mission #6 anyway due to alloys.

Now, assuming you play with grim horizon, you REALLY don't want to delay resistance comms, as otherwise you will not be able to contact a new region and chose which dark event to counter in cycle 2.

Ok, I wouldn't say it's essential, since the truly horrendous dark events cannot occur on the 2nd guerilla op. You can't lose the black market, get an alien cypher or get infiltrators as far as I'm aware.

Otherwise fine. I think it's a normal strategy to pick up res comms in that interval, so let's assume you do.

Escrito originalmente por Tamiore:

So the only opening for breakthroughs (before you finish mags) will be right after comms.

Well, after modular weapons or comms, if you are using this strategy in particular, which many won't be.

And yes, you can say that you won't often be faced with the choice, in which case there's no decision to make and nothing to discuss.

Escrito originalmente por Tamiore:

It cannot be right that 30-50 days with +1 damage in early game is insignificant yet 10 days with -1 is is significant.

It's 30-40 days of +1 in ONE weapon type vs 10- days (slowly reduced) of delays on ALL future techs, not just 10- days for the first bunch of mags.

As for the alloys, supply raid gives around 40, and you can buy around 20 per cycle of black market, so you will likely have 60 by the time mags are done, +20 by the time gauss are done.

At the cost of other resources and assuming there's not a shortage on alloys in either of the first 2 black market cycles, sure.

Escrito originalmente por Tamiore:

With 10 used for armor, you still have 70 to spare: that's rifles, shard guns, vector rifles and sniper or mag with 10 to spare. Not all tier 2 weapons, but 3/4 base + one or two faction class weapons.

Right, so it's about three quarters of a +2 instead of a +1 on literally everything.

That matters.

Escrito originalmente por Tamiore:

And you will likely get some more alloys from an excavation pretty soon.

Usually not, but ok, occasionally you might get some.

Escrito originalmente por Tamiore:

All-in-all, I guess one of the most interesting things here is that if you "rush" mags (only do modular and comms before them) you will only get 2 opportunities for breakthroughs, and only one (after comms) can really be taken without pushing critical stuff.

So, in a way, by rushing mags you also insure that AT WORST you miss out on two breakthroughs, and it's extremely unlikely both will be +1 damage ones.

Yes, that's true, but you still have the same calculus going on before you get plated armor, and you've cost yourself a bunch of time on damage upgrades in the form of ammo and heavy armor weapons through the Proving Ground going this route (so if we're talking about losing damage in the critical portion of the game, there's another disadvantage not covered right there).

But this only speaks to the frequency of how often one has to make the decision, not to what the right decision to make is.

It's very easy to say that if we are never offered +1 damage on conventional weapons we should never take +1 damage on conventional weapons. I don't think we'd be having a thread about that!

Escrito originalmente por Tamiore:

By the way, what exactly unlocks "+1 damage for all tier 2" breakthrough? Mags or gauss or what?

I think it's Mag, but I honestly can't say for sure.

Incidentally talking about inspirations, one thing you can do is lock out any project you don't want inspired by starting to research it (e.g. datapads, experimental weapons and other short duration projects) then swapping to whatever you want to research. Projects under way never get inspirations. I'm not sure whether this makes it more likely for your desired project to be inispired or whether the rolls are independent though.

[mosspit]

Escrito originalmente por Tamiore:

By the way, what exactly unlocks "+1 damage for all tier 2" breakthrough? Mags or gauss or what?

Its magnetic weapons.

[Fringehunter7719]

Going to my staple old thread for examples:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/268500/discussions/0/1520386297686843584/

The fastest two completions of mag weapons there are day 48 and day 53. That's probably around the 8th-9th mission mark.

[Tamiore]

Escrito originalmente por Fringehunter7719:

Mission 4 occurs on day 20-21. There's no way you're having mags by mission 6. None.

If you're switching to a project with 41 days left between day 14 and day 20, then it's more realistic to say you're looking at day 55 than day 35.

I never said BY mission 6
I said AFTER mission #6-#7. So before mission #7-#8.
Can it be done after #6, but before #7?
Let's see: comms finish around day 15, mission #7 is around day 42. So 27 days to go. Mags will take around 41 day with 1 extra scientist (you always have it), 30 days if you get 2 extra scientists. Not very likely, but one of your first two scanning POI's can be a scientist. If you get some other buff (extra scientist, inspiration, or hacking reward, or boost it via balck market) you can finish it between mission #6 and #7.
But, yes, MORE likely to finish after mission #7 without some extra luck. But possible before mission #7, e.g. if your FIRST scanning POI was a scientist and comms were boosted, too.

Escrito originalmente por Fringehunter7719:

Ok, I wouldn't say it's essential, since the truly horrendous dark events cannot occur on the 2nd guerilla op.

Why not? I'm pretty sure it's random. And getting an early Signal Jamming can be VERY bad.

Escrito originalmente por Fringehunter7719:

Right, so it's about three quarters of a +2 instead of a +1 on literally everything.

+1 damage on EVERYTHING is the one breakthrough type even I never argued against taking early. : D

Escrito originalmente por Fringehunter7719:

But this only speaks to the frequency of how often one has to make the decision, not to what the right decision to make is.

It's very easy to say that if we are never offered +1 damage on conventional weapons we should never take +1 damage on conventional weapons. I don't think we'd be having a thread about that!

it's not qute that simple. If the optimal thing to do is to reaserch all "weapon type +1" if they appear after mags, then whatever reduces the chance to get them BEFORE mags is a sound choice.

[Tamiore]

Escrito originalmente por Fringehunter7719:

Going to my staple old thread for examples:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/268500/discussions/0/1520386297686843584/

The fastest two completions of mag weapons there are day 48 and day 53. That's probably around the 8th-9th mission mark.

I've got my mags done by day ~47 on my current run (was rushing, got a scientist POI as one of POI's in the frist cycle, but not the very first one).
~ day 42 is mission 7.
So day 47 is after mission #7, before #8.
Would have been pushed to after #8 if I had no extra scientist POI.
Or to before #7 if I had some other buff.

[learnedhand]

I've lost the nuances of the thread, but you can defintely get mag weapons in less than 40 days. But you have to throw everything behind it and be favored by the rng gods. Its not advisable just for the extra 10 days or so saved. I think my fastest time ever in vanilla was April 8th or thereabouts.

[Tamiore]

Escrito originalmente por learnedhand:

I've lost the nuances of the thread, but you can defintely get mag weapons in less than 40 days. But you have to throw everything behind it and be favored by the rng gods. Its not advisable just for the extra 10 days or so saved. I think my fastest time ever in vanilla was April 8th or thereabouts.

Mission 6 is about day 35 and this mission (supply raid) is when you get your alloys. Without alloys mags research is no good anyway.
So I'd say that finishing mags before day 40 is pointless anyway, since that's the earliest you can build them and use them on a mission.

[Fringehunter7719]

Escrito originalmente por Tamiore:

Escrito originalmente por Fringehunter7719:

But this only speaks to the frequency of how often one has to make the decision, not to what the right decision to make is.

It's very easy to say that if we are never offered +1 damage on conventional weapons we should never take +1 damage on conventional weapons. I don't think we'd be having a thread about that!

it's not qute that simple. If the optimal thing to do is to reaserch all "weapon type +1" if they appear after mags, then whatever reduces the chance to get them BEFORE mags is a sound choice.

Well, no, not necessarily, because there are other factors. If you increase your chances of getting 1 extra weapon type +1 after mags instead of before by some margin, but at the cost of weeks of work in the proving ground, it may not be worth it. If you increase your chance of getting one after mags, but at the cost of the +1 all conventional and going for armor first route then again there's a factor on the other side of the balance sheet (yes, that's a smaller margin due to the greater likelihood of a damage upgrade for a weapon type than for a weapon tech tier by about 9 to 1).

And all of that is contingent on finding weapons upgrades more useful than armor upgrades as well, when I've found the reverse to be true in my playthroughs. The turning point in difficulty in a campaign is plated armor, by and large.

It could easily be that the average gain is bigger than the average loss for the alternative path.

[Tamiore]

Escrito originalmente por Fringehunter7719:

Escrito originalmente por Tamiore:

it's not qute that simple. If the optimal thing to do is to reaserch all "weapon type +1" if they appear after mags, then whatever reduces the chance to get them BEFORE mags is a sound choice.

Well, no, not necessarily, because there are other factors. If you increase your chances of getting 1 extra weapon type +1 after mags instead of before by some margin, but at the cost of weeks of work in the proving ground, it may not be worth it. If you increase your chance of getting one after mags, but at the cost of the +1 all conventional and going for armor first route then again there's a factor on the other side of the balance sheet (yes, that's a smaller margin due to the greater likelihood of a damage upgrade for a weapon type than for a weapon tech tier by about 9 to 1).

And all of that is contingent on finding weapons upgrades more useful than armor upgrades as well, when I've found the reverse to be true in my playthroughs. The turning point in difficulty in a campaign is plated armor, by and large.

It could easily be that the average gain is bigger than the average loss for the alternative path.

True.

But it's hard to tell where the average gain will be bigger than the average loss for the alternative paths. :D
I.e. the early proving grounds path precludes you from upgrading the resistance ring early on.
While if you do the mag rush you can upgrade the resistance ring in cycle 2 and build power in the 3rd slot of first row to upgrade the resistance ring yet again in cycle 3. Extra resistance order slots may be MUCH more valueable than proving grounds if you get good cards.
Not to mention that in XCOM the more important thing is not always the average, but rather what you can always rely on.

[Fringehunter7719]

You can always rely on the proving ground, you cannot always rely on getting the very best resistance cards in that exact period between digging out your 3rd and 5th slot.

Given that you will have equipped your best 1-2 resistance orders anyway, it's very unlikely (I'd dare say impossible in fact) that you will acquire a 2nd or 3rd that provides comparable tactical benefits, as the only real game changer is preventing timers from ticking until you break concealment.

[red255]

basically I sit at mag weapons get the +1 mag weapons breakthru, +1 specific weapon breakthru, research Plasma rifles, but don't move up until I get the +1 beam breakthru somewhere.

that way I don't have to figure out how to pay for the expensive new guns.

also research is slow, but breakthrus take a set amount of time regardless of number of scientists.

so taking 10 days to research something when you have 0 scientists is different than when you have like 4 scientists.

[Tamiore]

Escrito originalmente por Fringehunter7719:

You can always rely on the proving ground,

To do what exactly?