Defensive Matrix yes or no?

[Abrakadabra]

Ive gotten further in L/I then ever before in wotc. I saw ppl discuss this. Some say nah not necessary others say that other tech and infrastructure is of higher importance.

Im in midgame and the first avenger attack by the assassin is happening basically any second now. She has all the intel even though she only ever got Mox in the third mission. Somehow found out where I am anyway.

I build gts first, resistance ring, power (i think), resistance comms, proving ground, training center and last infirmary.

Right now i just started researching plasma weapons. I just got the first armor upgrade and the utility slots are woth ten times their weight :P in gold.

I dont really consider taking the defensive matrix cause I already built it. Just finished it.

The question is more: Do you always try to go straight for the most powerful tech and research and tools no matter what? Or do you play it safer.

The only reason I got this far and only lost one rookie so far and my infirmary is basically empty half the time is prolly cause I went a different, much more conservative path. Before Id think 'ok, store this hair trigger, its not advanced or superior, Ill just sell it and wait for something al ittle better to not waste it.

That mentality isnt so good for L/I though. At least for me.

From first mission on I treated every mission and every soldier with more attention. I gave them everything I had in terms of ability points or upgrades no matter how small. Its because of this thinking that I squeezed in the defensive matrix before I went psi lab or anything else. I dont even have a second resistnce comms cause you get contatcts via dirty operations.

The funny thing is, the matrix finished about 2 days after the Assassin proclaimed that she found me and will soon attack me. I knew from previous tries taht she wont necessarily attack right away but it might take a few days or even a week or so.

She hasnt attacked yet but I immediatly upgraded the matrix and stuffed an Engineer in there.

Dunno how you guys play but I can tell you that now I feel very good with that decision. And there will be more avenger defenses because of the chosen. So I thought, why not. Those turrets fire twice each turn if I remember correctly. Not the greatest aim, but they are 4 now and each shoot twice. Thats just awesome.

My poor men and women wont have to fight an army with no backup whatsoever. I think I owe them that much.

[Marcus]

if you have already built it, then it depends on how many turret remains you have in your inventry list - this is how many turrets you will have deployed when the avenger misson comes up.It is done automaticly, you dont have to do anything.Think the max it gives you is 8 turrets.

[Fringehunter7719]

Originally posted by Marcus:

if you have already built it, then it depends on how many turret remains you have in your inventry list - this is how many turrets you will have deployed when the avenger misson comes up.It is done automaticly, you dont have to do anything.Think the max it gives you is 8 turrets.

That's not right for the base game, are you using a mod?

[Stardustfire]

in wotc i only ever got 2, or 4 when done the quad cannon upgrade, and the cannons are ever pretty useless. cant hit a barnyard with its sqaudsight, and in none squaadsight range they never see anything because the bad terrain.
So i abandoned the matrix from my buildlist.

[red255]

I got my matrix second last, before labs. managed to get them in before the first chosen attacks.

they serve well enough, if you can spare the power and staff, early game I'd rather my engineers be digging, but once I clear everything, sure, take my 3 diggers, stick one in power, one to build the turrets and man them, the last probably goes to power or resistance comms.

but its certainly NOT a priority build, its useless before the chosen attack or UFO defense

During a chosen attack there are roughly 30 or so enemies, the turrets kill maybe 8 of them for free.

[Abrakadabra]

Okay, I just finished the avenger defense mission.

1. The cannons were very useful. I dont face endgame opponents yet so I could have handled it myself but they took down 2 guys of the first pod that came at me right when I moved the soldiers to the first cover right in line with the cannons.

They took down 2 crystalids.

2. For some reason (bug?) those turrets have squadsight. They could fire across the entire map and 2 shot tanks as well as the final generator which they took down in 4 shots or 6 not sure. I think 4 or 5. Its weird but it was very useful.

All in all, for the investment and the pretty cheap upgrade for two extra turrets and slightly better stats (think it was 75 supply for the upgrade) it was worth it. When cover is blown from enemies or you have holo targeting they decimate enemy pods. Dont forget each shoots 2 times.

Dunno how many they killed but they killed 4 tanks, the generator and a significant number of enemies. They would have killed more but I gave those kills to soldiers that needed promotions.

All in all, for the investment I think they are quite useful.

As I said, not sure if a bug or not, but those turrets can fire across the entire map if your reaper/ranger scouts the targets. I had 2 snipers but it takes some time for them to take down the tanks. I saved a lot of time with the turrets as backup. On particualrly hard avenger defenses maybe in late game this could be useful. Then again, your squad will be that much more powerful. Guess its good to have it but you prolly dont need it to survive.

I dont regret the 200 supplies. Or 300. dunno how much is cost initially. But the upgrade was 75 supplies and 2 power.

[red255]

its obviously not a bug. Not sure why that would cross your mind.

and its not the cost in supplies that concerns people.

its the cost of

1.) power
2.) use of the room
3.) research.
4.) staffing engineer.

[learnedhand]

It kind of depends on the map layout. If its flat, the turrets can be pretty useful, even if their aim still kind of sucks. But my last avenger defense had big raised terrain right in front the avenger (using Vozati's maps mod) so my turrets had no LOS to enemies for most of the mission.

[Fringehunter7719]

The turrets are generally great (you can apparently reposition them with a templar as well if they aren't well sited), but the issue I've always found with them is that if I do somewhere around 45 missions in a campaign the turrets are only capable of being deployed on 1 or 2 at most, depending whether I get to the first chosen before it finds the avenger or not.

Of those two missions the first often comes before I can get the matrix built anyway, since there's no way I'm bumping GTS/Res Ring/Proving down my build order, meaning it's at best built fifth, since power is required after the first three buildings.

The calculus then ends up being whether it's worth investing resources (mostly the research time, building space and power) for literally either zero missions or one mission where there's any benefit.

[mosspit]

If you can afford the Defense Matrix, go on ahead. The 2 mission types that it can be used can potentially end campaigns. Quite relevant on L/I where you would want as much of an advantage as you can.

Once those 2 Mission types stop, you can remove the facility and free up the space.

[KRON]

Tip for WotC. "Exchange" ability of a templar can be used with turrets, too. So you can teleport a turret pretty much anywhere, on a high ground, too, if you find one.

[Abrakadabra]

Originally posted by mosspit:

If you can afford the Defense Matrix, go on ahead. The 2 mission types that it can be used can potentially end campaigns. Quite relevant on L/I where you would want as much of an advantage as you can.

Once those 2 Mission types stop, you can remove the facility and free up the space.

Yeah, man. You think exactly like I do. Thats what I thought, too. Those missions can be very tough.

And quite frankly, I desperatly try to avoid loosing my best scouts. Thats Dragunova and two insane Rangers who got sick random skills and are just alien terminators.

They did the scouting for me, backing each other up. I could afford to split all three off (1 with mimic beacon in case they got revealed) because of the 4 turrets that were even more usefull than I had anticipated.

And I see it just like you. As I said, I treat missions (specailly missions you cannot loose like avenger defense) as game over missions. So I use everything I have. Dont wanne jinx my ironman run. Ive never beaten it on legendary ironman and so far everything looks soo good. I only lost a single recruit in the entire campagin so far. Till midgame. I think thats pretty good. Right now my infirmary is mostly empty. So, I wont take any chances.

But for ppl that already finished on that dificulty and play bettter than me its prolly not necessary to get the matrix.

But for all those that are just starting on lgendary and find it challenging....if you get a good start and get a lot of engineers (I had 3 after like 2 weeks, and like 6 or so after a few months. I think now its 8 or even 10. Not sure.) and dont just waste your supplies, then go for it and get it. But I was pretty lucky this time around when it came to preventing the chosen from extracting knowledge or capturing my soldiers. The two runs before this one I wasnt as lucky or simply played worse. The matrix finished basically one 'second' before I needed it.

Taking that into consideration - that there is a good chance that it wont even be ready for the (first) avenger defense - and that you stall something like psi lab for it, it might not be the best option. Not because it sux, quite the contrary, but you might struggle to finish it in time.

As good as it is, Id not skip gts, resistance ring, training center or prooving ground for it. Maybe you could argue that you could stall infirmary a bit. But thats a tough choise. Id prolly go with infirmary. I managed to squeeze it in just in time after infirmary.

Well. Its definitely not completly worhtless. I dont regret getting it. But I wouldnt use it in each run. Only if I have a lot of engineers early on and enough resources.

[learnedhand]

Originally posted by KRON:

Tip for WotC. "Exchange" ability of a templar can be used with turrets, too. So you can teleport a turret pretty much anywhere, on a high ground, too, if you find one.

Never tried that, lol.

[red255]

thats very useful. read the last comment in the thread and was thinking of moving enemy turrets to high ground to destroy them, but yeah the base defense turrets, if you can move them thats pretty great.

main reason they fall off is because they get too far back for squadsight.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by mosspit:

If you can afford the Defense Matrix, go on ahead. The 2 mission types that it can be used can potentially end campaigns. Quite relevant on L/I where you would want as much of an advantage as you can.

Once those 2 Mission types stop, you can remove the facility and free up the space.

Safe to get rid of them once every Chosen dies?

[red255]

after you do the Psionic gate mission a UFO hunts XCOM. the mission allows you to use turrets, the mission is, somewhat of a joke though. I've certainly beaten it with 2 turns with a mind controlled archon + two squadsight shots at the beacon. then lift off.