What Training Center ability on what class?

[Lampros]

Any combinations that I should look for in particular?

So far Rapid Fire and Serial seem to work well with every class. But I am still learning the ropes on WotC.

Also, in the same vein, why do people recommend Bladestorm so much on Templar? (I vaguely recall several folks praising this combination on an older thread.) It seems to me that late-game it is not enough to kill anything, and you are only asking the Templar to get hurt if you try to utilize it? It can't even kill Chryssalids on Commander. Is there something I am missing?

[red255]

uh, Templar attack is auto hit.

if you park a templar next to a crystallid, he's going to attack on his turn with his rend and attack before the crystallid gets to attack.

2 attacks. crystallid is 100% dead.

also it does more damage as you get more focus. and the templar won't get hurt because he has parry.

But yeah, what I use bladestorm for, on my rangers is I activate Reaper, I slash an enemy, the pod activates, then everyone runs and gets slashed by my ranger. if I get at least one kill the ranger gets another move and activates untouchable and unplacable.

since the enemies that ran away are wounded he can finish them off with reaper.

With a templar, it can get psionic abilities like sustain and fortress. it might get hurt but won't die.

and if it does die you'll get a new one with a covert op which is like 7 days worst case. which is lighter than most wound times.

So what you want the bonus class perks that are good?

Sharpshooter:
Run and Gun (duh)
Shredder Ammo
Holo Target
Unplacable (more for after the hunter weapon to keep up the death from above kill streak)

Class perks i take both of:
Deadeye/lightning hands
Fanfire/serial

Ranger:
shredder ammo
serial
Death from above

Class perk ranks I take both of
Conceal/Run and gun
Reaper/rapid fire.

Grenadier.
Run and Gun

Class perks I take both of. Holo target and heavy ordinance.

Specialist.
Holo target
shredder ammo
Rupture
maybe untouchable/unplacable.

Class perks I take both of.
Combat/Medical protocol
Capacitor discharge/Restoration.

Reaper.
good bonus perks for the reaper are
Shredder ammo
Tactical rigging

Templar we already discussed
and I'm not really good at utilizing my skirmishers

[mosspit]

@OP
To appreciate a Templar with Bladestorm, I guess you need to experience playing a Ranger with Bladestorm first. Seriously, Bladestorm makes it so that in most cases the Rend target is a guaranteed kill. And with momentum, it gives you more options to choose who gets killed as well. The only shortcoming I can think of with regards to a Bladestorm Templar is that kills with Bladestorm doesn't generate focus, but that's about it.

For training centre skills, it is a tad RNG but I mostly treat it as a way to get both tree skills for a class. Specialist especially is nice as most of the skills on both sides of the tree are useful.

For the rest, I guess Shredder is nice whenever it pops for any class. And any multishot skill for a Ranger like Chainshot or Serial.

[Stardustfire]

the skirmisher is good with his Ropes, and Abilitys like Return Fire and his Version of Bladestorm help him alot. the Electro Rope and the Skill CD Skill are good too.

[talemore]

Return fire will never be good and it's for the cause enemies only target units with the lowest defense. Return fire is better on a templar than on a skirmisher. Return fire is a really bad perk on a skirmisher. You consume ammo who you need on the next turn. The best tactic is to make moves who are the most efficient in preserving ammo because you don't want to run out of free reloads. Taking the return fire is like having a soldier who has a chance to reload the gun at every turn except it wastes ammo every time it get fired by enemy fire every turn. Return fire is a bad trait you only see when soldiers panicking and why should you waste points on a perk who is a handicap.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by red255:

uh, Templar attack is auto hit.

if you park a templar next to a crystallid, he's going to attack on his turn with his rend and attack before the crystallid gets to attack.

Yes, I see its use on single targets - especially after you have shaved off some health already on single targets. But I am getting it severely damaged when there are multiple potential enemies - or single targets with a big health pool.

I guess this is mainly an issue of target identification and positioning.

Originally posted by red255:

But yeah, what I use bladestorm for, on my rangers is I activate Reaper, I slash an enemy, the pod activates, then everyone runs and gets slashed by my ranger. if I get at least one kill the ranger gets another move and activates untouchable and unplacable.

since the enemies that ran away are wounded he can finish them off with reaper.

With a templar, it can get psionic abilities like sustain and fortress. it might get hurt but won't die.

Yes, the Ranger has more default class skills that synergize (is that even a word?) with Bladestorm than the Templar. I guess I find most of the new classes underwhelming but I guess that's a different topic.

Originally posted by red255:

Sharpshooter:
Run and Gun (duh)
Shredder Ammo
Holo Target
Unplacable (more for after the hunter weapon to keep up the death from above kill streak)

Class perks i take both of:
Deadeye/lightning hands
Fanfire/serial

Ranger:
shredder ammo
serial
Death from above

Class perk ranks I take both of
Conceal/Run and gun
Reaper/rapid fire.

Grenadier.
Run and Gun

Class perks I take both of. Holo target and heavy ordinance.

Specialist.
Holo target
shredder ammo
Rupture
maybe untouchable/unplacable.

Class perks I take both of.
Combat/Medical protocol
Capacitor discharge/Restoration.

Reaper.
good bonus perks for the reaper are
Shredder ammo
Tactical rigging

and I'm not really good at utilizing my skirmishers

Thanks for all these suggestions! I did get Implacable on a sniper build, and it worked surprisingly well, because I could re-position and keep using my sniper rifle. At first I thought it was a "meh" addition, but I was surprised with the utility.

I have not been using Holo Target on even Grenadiers, because aim is rarely a big issue for me as I prioritize it on PCS and weapon mods, but I think I should use it more so I can free up the PCS and weapon mod slots for other things.

I got Rupture on my sniper as well, but I was unimpressed. But again, I am probably using it wrong.

A Shredder question: Does it and AP rounds stack? I am not sure what the interaction between the two consists of.

Originally posted by mosspit:

@OP
To appreciate a Templar with Bladestorm, I guess you need to experience playing a Ranger with Bladestorm first. Seriously, Bladestorm makes it so that in most cases the Rend target is a guaranteed kill. And with momentum, it gives you more options to choose who gets killed as well. The only shortcoming I can think of with regards to a Bladestorm Templar is that kills with Bladestorm doesn't generate focus, but that's about it.

For training centre skills, it is a tad RNG but I mostly treat it as a way to get both tree skills for a class. Specialist especially is nice as most of the skills on both sides of the tree are useful.

For the rest, I guess Shredder is nice whenever it pops for any class. And any multishot skill for a Ranger like Chainshot or Serial.

In my experience, Rend does not do enough damage to kill most targets, but I guess this is why I have to hurt targets first before I set it up? I've been neglecting to do this, and this is surely part of my problem. And as I wrote above, Rangers do have better supporting skills that synergize with Bladestorm than Templars do.

How do you exactly set it up? And against what targets?

I agree with Specialists having good skill trees. I take most from both sides - especially the earlier kills.

Originally posted by Stardustfire:

the skirmisher is good with his Ropes, and Abilitys like Return Fire and his Version of Bladestorm help him alot. the Electro Rope and the Skill CD Skill are good too.

This is the new class I am most un-impressed with :(

[mosspit]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Originally posted by mosspit:

@OP
To appreciate a Templar with Bladestorm, I guess you need to experience playing a Ranger with Bladestorm first. Seriously, Bladestorm makes it so that in most cases the Rend target is a guaranteed kill. And with momentum, it gives you more options to choose who gets killed as well. The only shortcoming I can think of with regards to a Bladestorm Templar is that kills with Bladestorm doesn't generate focus, but that's about it.

For training centre skills, it is a tad RNG but I mostly treat it as a way to get both tree skills for a class. Specialist especially is nice as most of the skills on both sides of the tree are useful.

For the rest, I guess Shredder is nice whenever it pops for any class. And any multishot skill for a Ranger like Chainshot or Serial.

In my experience, Rend does not do enough damage to kill most targets, but I guess this is why I have to hurt targets first before I set it up? I've been neglecting to do this, and this is surely part of my problem. And as I wrote above, Rangers do have better supporting skills that synergize with Bladestorm than Templars do.

How do you exactly set it up? And against what targets?

I agree with Specialists having good skill trees. I take most from both sides - especially the earlier kills.

Rend by itself, no. But Rend + follow-up Bladestorm usually is, and definitely enough for a Chrsyalid. I mean go in for a Rend and Parry next to the damaged target. Bladestorm takes care of the target on the enemy's turn, and the Templar can withstand the next attack even if left out in the open.

You can draw parallels between a melee Bladestorm ranger and a Bladestorm Templar. Ranger with Bladestorm, Blademaster, Untouchable and Implaccable can be more or less equated to a Templar with Bladestorm and Parry. Bear in mind a Ranger can only achieve 100% hit with bladestorm with the Katana (even then the Katana if Im not mistaken adds a flat 100% to hit rate and therefore in certain circumstances, a Katana can also miss). A Templar already has guaranteed hit rate baked into its melee attack, but with less dmg than a Blademaster Ranger ofc.

[Stardustfire]

@talemore than u use the wrong mods on his weapon, sup autoloader and repeater makes Skirmisher a monster and makes no "ammo missing the next round"
and u text of "only target the lowest defense" must be supported by the apendix "they can see and target" . Reaper is close quarters class, and when u templar is seeable or good to target for the enemy something went wrong. sure Templar get his soak skills but that is no excuse to force the enemy to focus him, specially because templar has the build in ability to get perfect cover even after he melee attacked. (btw cant remind my templars ever get Return Fire as Option)

@mosspit advantage of the katana is it cant be dodged, Rend can. Templar can get Lightning Hands as Optional Skill, very helpful when rend alone forseeable cant kill something.

[mosspit]

Originally posted by Stardustfire:

@mosspit advantage of the katana is it cant be dodged, Rend can. Templar can get Lightning Hands as Optional Skill, very helpful when rend alone forseeable cant kill something.

Actually I did some digging and I think you are wrong based on info on this link
https://www.reddit.com/r/Xcom/comments/6yelg0/anyone_know_whats_up_with_bladestorms_hit_chance/

Katana from what I read adds a flat 100 to accuracy so there will be circumstances where it will have less than 100% hit rate (eg. Reaction attack against a high def target like Archon whilst under Disorient). Templar's melee hit chance is considered a guaranteed hit. The info states which situations where Templar's melee can miss, but in general it is more reliable than a Ranger's melee attack.

[red255]

Originally posted by Lampros:

A Shredder question: Does it and AP rounds stack? I am not sure what the interaction between the two consists of.

Shredder ammo means your weapons have 1 shred per tier I.E.
normal weapons have 1 shred
meg weapons have 2 shred
Beam weapons have 3 shred.

If you have a weapon that does 10 damage and the target has 3 armor

You'd do 10-3 damage, and the target would take 3 shred damage and end up with 0 armor.

I assume if you had AP ammo target would take 10 damage and still get 3 shred.

However you'd usually be better off with Bluescreen rounds which is +5 damage vs sectopods, gatekeepers, advent MEC. basically things with armor except andromedons.

Andromedons you have your psychic screw with his head. good old insanity, 90% chance to shut him down and leave him ruptured. (which is +3 damage on him effectively negating 3 of his 4 armor)

also andromedons can be flanked so you are more likely to get thru his armor with a decent crit.



"Rend"
How do you exactly set it up? And against what targets?

I mentioned how I set it up with a ranger. With a Reaper he doesn't even get bladestorm. but if he does die you get another one. so have him hold the enemy with Parry and deflect and reflect and other abilities. if he dies. you get another one.

[Stardustfire]

@mosspit my Info is from Ingame :) Katana explanation says it cant be dodged (and never seen it get dodged till now) , and Hell i seen my Rend attacks dodged to much times from Snakes and this Nanobot Anoyances.

[mosspit]

Originally posted by Stardustfire:

@mosspit my Info is from Ingame :) Katana explanation says it cant be dodged (and never seen it get dodged till now) , and Hell i seen my Rend attacks dodged to much times from Snakes and this Nanobot Anoyances.

My info is from ingame too. I have never seen Rend dodged, and my experience matches the coding shown in the link provided. Specter's Lightning Reflexes is a special case as it is skill effect. It will also cause Ranger's Bladestorm to miss on the first reaction attack. Even with Katana. Templar's Bladestorm will also miss it since Lightning Reflexes is a skill effect.

Rend will not miss Viper. Period.

[Stardustfire]

i sayed dodged, not missed. different thing

[mosspit]

Originally posted by Stardustfire:

i sayed dodged, not missed. different thing

Ok then. The Viper will not dodge a Rend Attack. Period.

[Stardustfire]

So u will tell me that in u Game u never get Grazed Hits with Rend? Because i played Unmodded i must ask if u use mods than.

[mosspit]

Originally posted by Stardustfire:

So u will tell me that in u Game u never get Grazed Hits with Rend? Because i played Unmodded i must ask if u use mods than.

Nope. It is not mods. I have shown you that in the base codes that the calculation of Templar's melee attack hit chance is different from the standard calculations. It is hardcoded to always hit unless affected by skill effects like Lightning Reflexes.

I don't know how to make this any clearer. Without taking into account special skills that prevents the said dmg, Rend can't be dodged. Period.