You can kill The Keeper (Box Head) in Chapter 7, it gives you around 35000 green gel overall

[[{Griaule}]]

On my first playthrough I noticed that The Keeper drops 1000 green gel and respawns every time I kill it. I also noticed that it occasionally drops 2 traps which can be disarmed. If you disarm 3 traps you can craft an explosive bolt and you can 1-hit The Keeper. Basically you have infinite ammo for your crossbow. So I decided to farm some green gel. I killed The Keeper around 35 times and it stopped respawning.

TL;DR The Keeper won't respawn after its approx. 35th death.

[Frag Maniac]

(N☆G) Jackal ★JJ★ eredeti hozzászólása:

But he wasn't talking about harder modes... he was talking about survival and its overall ammo spread.

I was referring to his blanket statement "There's ammo everywhere in the game". If he wanted to say the ammo is abundant on easier modes only, he should have said that. Instead he misrepresented the game, as many do after only playing on easy modes.

This is a serious gamer's game. I'm really sick of these late comers experimenting with bad tactics on easier modes, then pretending they know the game well. It's getting old.

[(N☆G) Jackal ★JJ★]

Frag Maniac eredeti hozzászólása:

(N☆G) Jackal ★JJ★ eredeti hozzászólása:

But he wasn't talking about harder modes... he was talking about survival and its overall ammo spread.

I was referring to his blanket statement "There's ammo everywhere in the game". If he wanted to say the ammo is abundant on easier modes only, he should have said that. Instead he misrepresented the game, as many do after only playing on easy modes.

This is a serious gamer's game. I'm really sick of these late comers experimenting with bad tactics on easier modes, then pretending they know the game well. It's getting old.

Misrepresented the game? The game is represented by its default modes which are casual and survival. The rest require unlocks do they not?

And no. this is NOT a serious gamer's game. I can easily bring up overall reception with the game, how often it is played, and how many copies it sold and compare it to many other games that meet the same genre to show you what serious games look like.

I am sorry you are taking offense but he was discussing survival mode as a whole and hasn't said anything pass that, when he ended up making the comment about ammo being everywhere, it was still refering to the game mode he referred to earlier.

And I'm sick of EVERY one who plays games and then lives their lives on these forums and think THEIR gameplay style is the right one. God did you even listen to yourself? Late comers? Why don't you just be glad people are still buying this game and MAYBE it might get a sequel instead of just complianing about people who play this game and voice their opinions.

I am MORE than sure you had gripes with this game that you voiced long ago so why don't you just ease off and let him gripe and voice his opinions as well.

[(N☆G) Jackal ★JJ★]

holychair eredeti hozzászólása:

(N☆G) Jackal ★JJ★ eredeti hozzászólása:

And no. this is NOT a serious gamer's game. I can easily bring up overall reception with the game, how often it is played, and how many copies it sold and compare it to many other games that meet the same genre to show you what serious games look like.

I don't understand that part of your post. I think Frag meant "serious" in contradistinction to "casual" - how would that be related to overall reception of the game, copies sold etc?

I must have read into that wrong because I took serious as in a 'serious game for gamers' which would mean it is well recieved, have famous speed runs for and had competition speedruns for, and so on and so forth.

If he meant the game has a 'serious' tone about it, sure. But I dont think this game is taken seriously in competitive means what so ever like other single players games can be. This game is literally what you make of it and for him to constantly bash other peoples view points and opinions on the game because he feels strongly about it is just shameful, and he needs to simply lighten up and understand this is the internet and this game overall was poorly recieved and hardly taken seriously by most horror fans. I rarely see another user in horror forums suggest Evil Within as a game to play.

[[{Griaule}]]

Frag Maniac eredeti hozzászólása:

This is a serious gamer's game. I'm really sick of these late comers experimenting with bad tactics on easier modes, then pretending they know the game well. It's getting old.

This game is garbage. Nothing near to a serious gamer's game. The programmers used "unqualified tactics" by adding these awful scripts into the game. And I clearly stated that I'm talking about Survival difficulty and this game doesn't worth replaying on harder difficulties. Dead Space 1-2-3, Resident Evil 4-5-6 (in RE6 not all campaigns tho) are worth replaying on Impossible Mode, Hard Core Mode, Professional and No Hope difficulties (I have to note that I haven't finished RE6 on No Hope difficulty) but this game doesn't worth a replay on any difficulty.

[(N☆G) Jackal ★JJ★]

holychair eredeti hozzászólása:

(N☆G) Jackal ★JJ★ eredeti hozzászólása:

this game overall was poorly recieved and hardly taken seriously by most horror fans. I rarely see another user in horror forums suggest Evil Within as a game to play.

Even though I'm concededly biased too (I like the game very much), this doesn't objectively sound right. Reception was inconsistent, yes, some reviews were lukewarm, but there were also several 9/10 (see its Wikipedia entry). It certainly wasn't "poorly received". It also sold over 4 million copies and broke the record for a new horror IP in its first month,which was only broken again later by "Dying Light". I have no surveillance data on what "most horror fans" think, but I definitely see people recommend "The Evil Within" on other forums from time to time. I myself was recommended the game on the "Alien:Isolation" forum first.

Well, at the very least you surely are a thousands times more pleasant to talk to in a debating fashion than most users on steam. (:

Well, I suppose you are correct where reception was a bit.... inconsistent. I remeber this game barely holding up its first month with mixed reviews pushing it into the 40% range, although I'm just now playing this game I have been keeping tabs on it since its release and watched the entire game played in a no commetary playthough because I simply had no time to play it even though I bought it instantly.

As for my remark on it was poorly recieved that goes in with the mixed reviews that plagued it. There were constant refund threads (which honestly with todays steam user base what game DOESNT have this -_-) a ton of threads complaining about the mechanics and overall plot and I dont know it seemed like a chaotic ♥♥♥♥ storm at the time. As for the reviews on wiki a LOT of those reviewers are pretty below the radar. IGN is a joke and I hope no one takes them seriously after it was found out they do paid reviews. Eurogamer, PC Gamer, Metacrtic, and Gamespot are normally the big reviewers that people listen to which Destructoid, Gameinformer, and GamesRadar being the next big reviewers and thats a stretch to say that.

Anyway, looking at the overall reviews though it is defintiely a mixed bag. I wouldn't say sells make a game good either after what NMS went through.... being one of the 'best selling games on steam ever' and we all saw how that turned out.

As for horror game forums, theres a few forums you can just google search that stritcly suggest horror titles, a great way to discover games you never heard of before too. Anyway, Evil Within is a mixed bag on those forums where you'll see 1 person suggest it, then get the entire thread derailed by people suggesting other titles over Evil Within and honestly I get that too, after playing I'm on Chapter 10 and this is the first horror game where I felt like its a chore to keep playing, clearly that might just be me though but for a game to make me feel like that takes a lot, even more so when all I do is watch movies and play video games due to my line of work.

[Frag Maniac]

(N☆G) Jackal ★JJ★ eredeti hozzászólása:

Misrepresented the game? The game is represented by its default modes which are casual and survival. The rest require unlocks do they not?

Are you seriously implying they intended only Casual and Survival modes to represent the entire game? Definition of casual player.

"OMG, it has to be unlocked, better not try that!"

I suppose when you come to a booby trapped chest or a wall mine you ignore it, for fear of blowing yourself up. Games like this aren't meant for the timid.

[(N☆G) Jackal ★JJ★]

Frag Maniac eredeti hozzászólása:

(N☆G) Jackal ★JJ★ eredeti hozzászólása:

Misrepresented the game? The game is represented by its default modes which are casual and survival. The rest require unlocks do they not?

Are you seriously implying they intended only Casual and Survival modes to represent the entire game? Definition of casual player.

"OMG, it has to be unlocked, better not try that!"

I suppose when you come to a booby trapped chest or a wall mine you ignore it, for fear of blowing yourself up. Games like this aren't meant for the timid.

No I am implying that for the target audience they were going for were for the default modes.

The unlockable modes are clearly extra and are not meant to be for their general audience.

Also please don't assume I'm a moron if you want to make jabs at how I play games I respectfully ask you to make your profile public so we can compare achievements on other games. and games like this aren't meant for the timid? You serious? Is that why the harder modes are literally extra then? There are much harder games that purposefully target straight from the get go hard core people this however is not one so don't try to pass it off as one.

[stonersunshine]

(N☆G) Jackal ★JJ★ eredeti hozzászólása:

Frag Maniac eredeti hozzászólása:

Are you seriously implying they intended only Casual and Survival modes to represent the entire game? Definition of casual player.

"OMG, it has to be unlocked, better not try that!"

I suppose when you come to a booby trapped chest or a wall mine you ignore it, for fear of blowing yourself up. Games like this aren't meant for the timid.

No I am implying that for the target audience they were going for were for the default modes.

The unlockable modes are clearly extra and are not meant to be for their general audience.

Also please don't assume I'm a moron if you want to make jabs at how I play games I respectfully ask you to make your profile public so we can compare achievements on other games. and games like this aren't meant for the timid? You serious? Is that why the harder modes are literally extra then? There are much harder games that purposefully target straight from the get go hard core people this however is not one so don't try to pass it off as one.

That is total nonsense, lots of games have harder modes as unlocks for more serious gamers. A lot of this director's games have hard mode as an unlock, Godhand, Vanquish, RE4, this, and all of those games are considered for more serious systems minded people. Virtually every game made by Platinum has the same unlock requirement. It is a well established trend by this point. The reason behind this is that on harder modes the game is heavily remixed with late game enemies appearing early on, something that would be inappropriate for a first playthrough and obviously makes the game feel more fresh on a replay.

What would even be the point in including such a mode if not for more serious people? Heck one of the most famously difficult action games Ninja Gaiden 2 has a rather easy normal mode and it's core audience is definitely going to be considering that a mere practice run to unlock master mode.

With horror game reviews you are just going to have to accept that they are often divisive or victims of review trends. Siren 72% metacritic ranges from 1-9/10, Haunting Ground 67%, Kuon 57%, Dino Crisis 59%. All of which I would hold in very high regard. I'd rather talk about the actual substance of the game than sales figures, review scores or the opinion of anonymous people.

To sum up why this game is for more challenge oriented people I would say that the gameplay is always about making decisions with each decision potentially being both right and wrong. At the same time it offers a great deal of variety in how you play the game by providing you with a plethora of weapons and an upgrade system that you can choose to ignore completely.

Take the standard enemy and simply shooting him with the pistol. A head shot is harder to make but will potentially be a critical. A body shot is easy to make but takes 50% more ammo to kill with. A leg shot will bring the enemy down and combined with a match will instant kill. You can also run away. Affecting your choice will be what distance the enemy is, what type, whether they are already hurt, whether they are attacking, what amount of ammo you have, if you have matches, whether the encounter is even necessary and so on.

In most games the answer to "where do I shoot?" is simple, the head. In this it's not as easy. If you have one bullet, hit the head and you don't get a critical then that was a mistake. That's just one weapon with one enemy type but that level of decision making is present across all the game, not just weapons but in how you deal with traps, supplies, groups of enemies and boss creatures.

In terms of adding your own variety the upgrade system offers a huge degree of freedom. If you ignore it fully then you find yourself playing a very tightly balanced mode without having to ignore any of the games mechanics. If you want a more extreme and focused playthrough then the upgrade system allows a player to shore up weaknesses that might be present in a limited run like "guns only", "Bow only" or even weapon specific runs like "pistol only" by bolstering what meagre resources they do have. Even the key system being separate from ammo pick ups allows a player to easily engage with or ignore the extra support.

This game is also generally tough. There are a number of one hit kills in this game, not as much as people claim, they do not put those in a game for the an audience that bemoans any amount of difficulty. There is no block. Melee is very weak. Enemies attack in groups, which is worth noting because otherwise you could bait them into melee easily. It never stops adding new enemy types which forces people to adapt and learn new patterns. Traps are a constant serious threat throughout the game and not simply confined to one area, requiring people to be observant or die. There are regular boss fights which make reserving resources for their appearance important. You regenerate health but only to the point where a strong hit will still kill you and movement is made more sluggish.

Also aside from one unlock the rest are actually quite well balanced as opposed to being overpowered which makes a replay still a challenge even using the unlockable pistol, sniper or even machine gun which is mostly balanced by giving you zero ammo. In fact the pistol comes with it's own drawbacks in its increased ammo usage.

Derisory comments like feels like I'm playing a game from 2005 are being made about so many different games and I find it disquieting. The idea that new games are getting better and better while the past games get worse as they age and have little to offer is so closed minded especially when there is a current trend of games being dumbed down heavily from their predecessors.

I wrote good deal here and I'm not sure if you are really interested in discussion but if you are for the love of God don't quote that. I am a huge fan of this game but I'm not unaware of its faults such as this boss fight removing the gas being a big mistake though it's not a big deal on certain challenge runs which I think is what Frag was getting at.

[stonersunshine]

The story intends for you to put it together somewhat by reading files and assigning significance to the places you are taken to. For example something that will quickly be apparent when reading through Seb's diary is that his past mirrors the main villain's own to a degree and it's up to you to decide whether that's important.

The DLC is more a case of quickly spelling the main games plot out for people that didn't get it then going on to establish its own mysteries. Comments like saying the game wanted you to buy the ending doesn't wash for me, the DLC had a new writer and director from what I can remember and the main game had a conclusion.

[(N☆G) Jackal ★JJ★]

stonersunshine eredeti hozzászólása:

(N☆G) Jackal ★JJ★ eredeti hozzászólása:

No I am implying that for the target audience they were going for were for the default modes.

The unlockable modes are clearly extra and are not meant to be for their general audience.

Also please don't assume I'm a moron if you want to make jabs at how I play games I respectfully ask you to make your profile public so we can compare achievements on other games. and games like this aren't meant for the timid? You serious? Is that why the harder modes are literally extra then? There are much harder games that purposefully target straight from the get go hard core people this however is not one so don't try to pass it off as one.

That is total nonsense, lots of games have harder modes as unlocks for more serious gamers. A lot of this director's games have hard mode as an unlock, Godhand, Vanquish, RE4, this, and all of those games are considered for more serious systems minded people. Virtually every game made by Platinum has the same unlock requirement. It is a well established trend by this point. The reason behind this is that on harder modes the game is heavily remixed with late game enemies appearing early on, something that would be inappropriate for a first playthrough and obviously makes the game feel more fresh on a replay.

What would even be the point in including such a mode if not for more serious people? Heck one of the most famously difficult action games Ninja Gaiden 2 has a rather easy normal mode and it's core audience is definitely going to be considering that a mere practice run to unlock master mode.

With horror game reviews you are just going to have to accept that they are often divisive or victims of review trends. Siren 72% metacritic ranges from 1-9/10, Haunting Ground 67%, Kuon 57%, Dino Crisis 59%. All of which I would hold in very high regard. I'd rather talk about the actual substance of the game than sales figures, review scores or the opinion of anonymous people.

To sum up why this game is for more challenge oriented people I would say that the gameplay is always about making decisions with each decision potentially being both right and wrong. At the same time it offers a great deal of variety in how you play the game by providing you with a plethora of weapons and an upgrade system that you can choose to ignore completely.

Take the standard enemy and simply shooting him with the pistol. A head shot is harder to make but will potentially be a critical. A body shot is easy to make but takes 50% more ammo to kill with. A leg shot will bring the enemy down and combined with a match will instant kill. You can also run away. Affecting your choice will be what distance the enemy is, what type, whether they are already hurt, whether they are attacking, what amount of ammo you have, if you have matches, whether the encounter is even necessary and so on.

In most games the answer to "where do I shoot?" is simple, the head. In this it's not as easy. If you have one bullet, hit the head and you don't get a critical then that was a mistake. That's just one weapon with one enemy type but that level of decision making is present across all the game, not just weapons but in how you deal with traps, supplies, groups of enemies and boss creatures.

In terms of adding your own variety the upgrade system offers a huge degree of freedom. If you ignore it fully then you find yourself playing a very tightly balanced mode without having to ignore any of the games mechanics. If you want a more extreme and focused playthrough then the upgrade system allows a player to shore up weaknesses that might be present in a limited run like "guns only", "Bow only" or even weapon specific runs like "pistol only" by bolstering what meagre resources they do have. Even the key system being separate from ammo pick ups allows a player to easily engage with or ignore the extra support.

This game is also generally tough. There are a number of one hit kills in this game, not as much as people claim, they do not put those in a game for the an audience that bemoans any amount of difficulty. There is no block. Melee is very weak. Enemies attack in groups, which is worth noting because otherwise you could bait them into melee easily. It never stops adding new enemy types which forces people to adapt and learn new patterns. Traps are a constant serious threat throughout the game and not simply confined to one area, requiring people to be observant or die. There are regular boss fights which make reserving resources for their appearance important. You regenerate health but only to the point where a strong hit will still kill you and movement is made more sluggish.

Also aside from one unlock the rest are actually quite well balanced as opposed to being overpowered which makes a replay still a challenge even using the unlockable pistol, sniper or even machine gun which is mostly balanced by giving you zero ammo. In fact the pistol comes with it's own drawbacks in its increased ammo usage.

Derisory comments like feels like I'm playing a game from 2005 are being made about so many different games and I find it disquieting. The idea that new games are getting better and better while the past games get worse as they age and have little to offer is so closed minded especially when there is a current trend of games being dumbed down heavily from their predecessors.

I wrote good deal here and I'm not sure if you are really interested in discussion but if you are for the love of God don't quote that. I am a huge fan of this game but I'm not unaware of its faults such as this boss fight removing the gas being a big mistake though it's not a big deal on certain challenge runs which I think is what Frag was getting at.

Did you NOT read the target audience part? You can spin off that yea there are parts for more serious people but they aren't the target audience. That's just benefits the serious players get. They don't expect you to go through those because most owners of titles just play through once as shown in most global achievements where you can see the people who own the and then the % of people who get certain achievements. They did not make and sell this game to target more advanced players but simply made benefits for those people.

Anyway this game has not once been at event speed runs or showcasings. It released had a bunch of sales, mixed reviews, then it's user base flew through the floor fast. You can spin it off as a serious game all you want but the only serious statement you can make is the games tone.

[stonersunshine]

(N☆G) Jackal ★JJ★ eredeti hozzászólása:

stonersunshine eredeti hozzászólása:

That is total nonsense, lots of games have harder modes as unlocks for more serious gamers. A lot of this director's games have hard mode as an unlock, Godhand, Vanquish, RE4, this, and all of those games are considered for more serious systems minded people. Virtually every game made by Platinum has the same unlock requirement. It is a well established trend by this point. The reason behind this is that on harder modes the game is heavily remixed with late game enemies appearing early on, something that would be inappropriate for a first playthrough and obviously makes the game feel more fresh on a replay.

What would even be the point in including such a mode if not for more serious people? Heck one of the most famously difficult action games Ninja Gaiden 2 has a rather easy normal mode and it's core audience is definitely going to be considering that a mere practice run to unlock master mode.

With horror game reviews you are just going to have to accept that they are often divisive or victims of review trends. Siren 72% metacritic ranges from 1-9/10, Haunting Ground 67%, Kuon 57%, Dino Crisis 59%. All of which I would hold in very high regard. I'd rather talk about the actual substance of the game than sales figures, review scores or the opinion of anonymous people.

To sum up why this game is for more challenge oriented people I would say that the gameplay is always about making decisions with each decision potentially being both right and wrong. At the same time it offers a great deal of variety in how you play the game by providing you with a plethora of weapons and an upgrade system that you can choose to ignore completely.

Take the standard enemy and simply shooting him with the pistol. A head shot is harder to make but will potentially be a critical. A body shot is easy to make but takes 50% more ammo to kill with. A leg shot will bring the enemy down and combined with a match will instant kill. You can also run away. Affecting your choice will be what distance the enemy is, what type, whether they are already hurt, whether they are attacking, what amount of ammo you have, if you have matches, whether the encounter is even necessary and so on.

In most games the answer to "where do I shoot?" is simple, the head. In this it's not as easy. If you have one bullet, hit the head and you don't get a critical then that was a mistake. That's just one weapon with one enemy type but that level of decision making is present across all the game, not just weapons but in how you deal with traps, supplies, groups of enemies and boss creatures.

In terms of adding your own variety the upgrade system offers a huge degree of freedom. If you ignore it fully then you find yourself playing a very tightly balanced mode without having to ignore any of the games mechanics. If you want a more extreme and focused playthrough then the upgrade system allows a player to shore up weaknesses that might be present in a limited run like "guns only", "Bow only" or even weapon specific runs like "pistol only" by bolstering what meagre resources they do have. Even the key system being separate from ammo pick ups allows a player to easily engage with or ignore the extra support.

This game is also generally tough. There are a number of one hit kills in this game, not as much as people claim, they do not put those in a game for the an audience that bemoans any amount of difficulty. There is no block. Melee is very weak. Enemies attack in groups, which is worth noting because otherwise you could bait them into melee easily. It never stops adding new enemy types which forces people to adapt and learn new patterns. Traps are a constant serious threat throughout the game and not simply confined to one area, requiring people to be observant or die. There are regular boss fights which make reserving resources for their appearance important. You regenerate health but only to the point where a strong hit will still kill you and movement is made more sluggish.

Also aside from one unlock the rest are actually quite well balanced as opposed to being overpowered which makes a replay still a challenge even using the unlockable pistol, sniper or even machine gun which is mostly balanced by giving you zero ammo. In fact the pistol comes with it's own drawbacks in its increased ammo usage.

Derisory comments like feels like I'm playing a game from 2005 are being made about so many different games and I find it disquieting. The idea that new games are getting better and better while the past games get worse as they age and have little to offer is so closed minded especially when there is a current trend of games being dumbed down heavily from their predecessors.

I wrote good deal here and I'm not sure if you are really interested in discussion but if you are for the love of God don't quote that. I am a huge fan of this game but I'm not unaware of its faults such as this boss fight removing the gas being a big mistake though it's not a big deal on certain challenge runs which I think is what Frag was getting at.

Did you NOT read the target audience part? You can spin off that yea there are parts for more serious people but they aren't the target audience. That's just benefits the serious players get. They don't expect you to go through those because most owners of titles just play through once as shown in most global achievements where you can see the people who own the and then the % of people who get certain achievements. They did not make and sell this game to target more advanced players but simply made benefits for those people.

Anyway this game has not once been at event speed runs or showcasings. It released had a bunch of sales, mixed reviews, then it's user base flew through the floor fast. You can spin it off as a serious game all you want but the only serious statement you can make is the games tone.

Yes I READ the target audience part, the point I made was that if a game includes various facets of gameplay aimed at a more serious audience then that audience is clearly being targeted, there is no other reason to waste dev time to include them because nobody but that segment is going to care. It matters more when some of the gameplay elements I bring up are directly to the detriment of an audience that isn't seeking a challenge.

Why do you keep focusing on whether the game was popular or speed run contests to determine what its quality is? Those are all factors outside the game itself and I don't consider them relevent to discussion. My only thought is that maybe you need someone else to tell you whether something has deep gameplay systems because you aren't capable of providing an analysis on your own apparently.

You know what I noticed looking at trophies for Remake, 15% finished 2%finished on hard. Most people don't make it a quarter way through a game let alone get to the ending. I guess everything past the opening of games is just extraneous rubbish for a minority, lets only talk about opening cutscenes and what it's like to play on easy until we hit the skip cutscene button and immediately stop playing. Looking at achievements completion percentage is a terrible metric for judging who games are aimed at.

I don't even know if people speed run Siren but I do know it sold terrible and that game doesn't cater to people wanting an easy time at all. I'm sure because of the way the community works Wonderful 101 has some combo videos but I also know it didn't sell because it's extremely obtuse. Your criteria of popularity for determining a game made for people looking for challenge is complete nonsense.

If the game offers challenging gameplay to people looking for that you can't just say no it doesn't count because people don't play the game on the moon or some other unrelated nonsense. Offer up some meaningful comparisons or something.

[Frag Maniac]

(N☆G) Jackal ★JJ★ eredeti hozzászólása:

No I am implying that for the target audience they were going for were for the default modes.

I don't think you have a clue what Mikami's "target audience" is in this game. He specifically stated pre launch that he was going for a more survival horror audience, a game that is more challenging to play. So assume all you want that he was only thinking about Casual and Survival modes, but this game was really made for those whom want much more challenge than RE4 offered, and you don't get that on the easier modes.

You so quickly support the ammo everywhere comment, but what you fail to see is that RE4, the game he made prior, had WAY more ammo and powerful weapons than this one does, even if playing on easier modes. You could literally scavenge and sell trinkets, then buy a rocket launcher to one hit kill a boss in RE4.

So even if I were to agree with you on the target audience being Casual and Survival players, it still offers more challenge than his prior work.

[(N☆G) Jackal ★JJ★]

stonersunshine eredeti hozzászólása:

(N☆G) Jackal ★JJ★ eredeti hozzászólása:

Did you NOT read the target audience part? You can spin off that yea there are parts for more serious people but they aren't the target audience. That's just benefits the serious players get. They don't expect you to go through those because most owners of titles just play through once as shown in most global achievements where you can see the people who own the and then the % of people who get certain achievements. They did not make and sell this game to target more advanced players but simply made benefits for those people.

Anyway this game has not once been at event speed runs or showcasings. It released had a bunch of sales, mixed reviews, then it's user base flew through the floor fast. You can spin it off as a serious game all you want but the only serious statement you can make is the games tone.

Yes I READ the target audience part, the point I made was that if a game includes various facets of gameplay aimed at a more serious audience then that audience is clearly being targeted, there is no other reason to waste dev time to include them because nobody but that segment is going to care. It matters more when some of the gameplay elements I bring up are directly to the detriment of an audience that isn't seeking a challenge.

Why do you keep focusing on whether the game was popular or speed run contests to determine what its quality is? Those are all factors outside the game itself and I don't consider them relevent to discussion. My only thought is that maybe you need someone else to tell you whether something has deep gameplay systems because you aren't capable of providing an analysis on your own apparently.

You know what I noticed looking at trophies for Remake, 15% finished 2%finished on hard. Most people don't make it a quarter way through a game let alone get to the ending. I guess everything past the opening of games is just extraneous rubbish for a minority, lets only talk about opening cutscenes and what it's like to play on easy until we hit the skip cutscene button and immediately stop playing. Looking at achievements completion percentage is a terrible metric for judging who games are aimed at.

I don't even know if people speed run Siren but I do know it sold terrible and that game doesn't catetr all. I'm sure because of the way the community works Wonderful 101 has some combo videos but I also know it didn't sell because it's extremely obtuse. Your criteria of popularity for determining a game made for people looking for challenge is complete nonsense.

If the game offers challenging gameplay to people looking for that you can't just say no it doesn't count because people don't play the game on the moon or some other unrelated nonsense. Offer up some meaningful comparisons or something.

I'm sorry. That isn't true at all. When doom created nightmare it was stated it wasn't even fair and that it was just for fun. There was no target auidence for that, it was simply a feature they put in the game if players wanted more punishment. The target auidence in development is first time play through. Anything else is simply for more serious fans which are not the target audience. From any marketing team you literally can't have multiple target groups. You have ONE target group for sales. The rest is just a reward system and yeah you can say it was and logically sounds like it is a target audience but that isnt their goal and it was added for basically ♥♥♥♥ it reasons. By your logic, because the game has an achievement for finishing the game in a speedrun it targets speedrunners. Yeah, its there but it isn't the audience they were trying to appeal to and if you want to agrue tabout it further maybe you should go read what the devs themselves said their target auidence was.

Anyway, overall to say that because they added extra feats in a game doesn't mean they were targeting people who otherwise wouldn't buy their game and THAT is what makes it not the target auidence. They didn't design those extra feats and features to lure in a larger group of players to play this game and that is the overall trump agruement that you fail to realize.

Now for the speedrunners and the likes that I've brought up, any game that is considered a serious game has had speedrunner events for and thats the point I'm making. The people saying this is a serious game in reference of skill and the like, well there has never been a speedrun for this game that was at an event that. Like I said, when he said its a serious game for serious gamers that is what I picked up on and its not. The hardest mode on this game is apparently is a lot easier than it sounds for a lot of people as I went in myself and looked at and watched people play it. To prove this point once I am done with my playthrough which I am finding more of a chore than a desire to finish I will go in and do it myself. The game has a serious tone, I'll give it that, it has extra feats for gamers that want more and simply are just meant for replayability because right now I don't see too much replayability and if you haven't noticed I play a lot of games. Hell, I still go back to Diablo 1 and 2 and even Half-Life.

I'm not saying this is a bad game I'm saying it is a game that has GREAT atmosphere but overall gameplay and mechanics make this game feel like a chore more than an enjoyable adventure, kind of like how Kingdom of Almaur or whatever was, amazing concept, great locations, but overall felt like a chore to keep playing.

And as for you going on about games that offers challenges. Well, they are straight up marketed like that. EVERY body knows Ninja Gaiden is hard, that is their selling point. To say a game targets a challenging auidence but then doesn't even have challenging modes straight off the get go is simply, by your words, nonsense. You'd end up turning off your challenging target auidence because they have to make their first playthrough on a normal settings. Ninja Gaiden's easy setting, made fun of the player then you couldn't even finish the game on that setting, it clearly was not targeted for that but by your logic it would be so now you have a game with an easier mode, that still pretty rough, makes fun of the player, and then cuts off so you can't play the what was it? last 3 chapters of that game? But no you're right they shipped it off and targeted more casual players. I'm sorry, I get what you are saying and I respect your viewpoints but when you say it targets to harder audiences but then punishes them by forcing them to easier modes, isn't targeting that audience. It is literally just extra.

[(N☆G) Jackal ★JJ★]

holychair eredeti hozzászólása:

(N☆G) Jackal ★JJ★ eredeti hozzászólása:

To prove this point once I am done with my playthrough which I am finding more of a chore than a desire to finish I will go in and do it myself.

I'm glad to hear that for I actually have some hope that this might change your mind about the game. I personally feel that "nightmare mode" is how TEW is meant to be played - I found that out on chapter 2 already which proved to be much more interesting and challenging than on "survival". The most difficult mode is "akumu", which is unballanced and unfair in places, and also was tacked on later only. I would not have made it without Mike Bettencourt's great guide. Seraphim17 has played TEW on Akumu with no keys and no upgrades - that is the ultimate challenge.

Well, I am stupidly stubborn and even though I really like this games overall atmosphere I deslike the plot and the feel of the gameplay however! I will replay the game and go through that mode. Watching people on that level it seems like it is played like Resident Evil speedruns where you avoid avoid and avoid and save your ammo/bolts for bosses. But, I have played through Ultra nightmare on Doom where dying at any point in the entire game will set you back to the very first level as if you didn't do anything and then I've also ran through Alien Isolation and Dark Souls on the highest settings possible so I suppose I might as well go through this one just for more bragging rights, atleast this one gives me an achievement to brag about.

And yes! I have already went to read some guidelines on how to deal with Akumu the second I chose to comment about the mode. xD I knew that nothing I said about the mode would be taken seriously until I went in and beat the mode myself and then came back here. From what I am looking at I highly doubt I'd be able to do Akumu without keys or upgrades since my tactic appears to be grabbing every key and reloading constantly for gels.

[stonersunshine]

(N☆G) Jackal ★JJ★ eredeti hozzászólása:

stonersunshine eredeti hozzászólása:

If the game offers challenging gameplay to people looking for that you can't just say no it doesn't count because people don't play the game on the moon or some other unrelated nonsense. Offer up some meaningful comparisons or something.

I'm sorry. That isn't true at all. When doom created nightmare it was stated it wasn't even fair and that it was just for fun. There was no target auidence for that, it was simply a feature they put in the game if players wanted more punishment. The target auidence in development is first time play through. Anything else is simply for more serious fans which are not the target audience. From any marketing team you literally can't have multiple target groups. You have ONE target group for sales. The rest is just a reward system and yeah you can say it was and logically sounds like it is a target audience but that isnt their goal and it was added for basically ♥♥♥♥ it reasons. By your logic, because the game has an achievement for finishing the game in a speedrun it targets speedrunners. Yeah, its there but it isn't the audience they were trying to appeal to and if you want to agrue tabout it further maybe you should go read what the devs themselves said their target auidence was.

Anyway, overall to say that because they added extra feats in a game doesn't mean they were targeting people who otherwise wouldn't buy their game and THAT is what makes it not the target auidence. They didn't design those extra feats and features to lure in a larger group of players to play this game and that is the overall trump agruement that you fail to realize.

Now for the speedrunners and the likes that I've brought up, any game that is considered a serious game has had speedrunner events for and thats the point I'm making. The people saying this is a serious game in reference of skill and the like, well there has never been a speedrun for this game that was at an event that. Like I said, when he said its a serious game for serious gamers that is what I picked up on and its not. The hardest mode on this game is apparently is a lot easier than it sounds for a lot of people as I went in myself and looked at and watched people play it. To prove this point once I am done with my playthrough which I am finding more of a chore than a desire to finish I will go in and do it myself. The game has a serious tone, I'll give it that, it has extra feats for gamers that want more and simply are just meant for replayability because right now I don't see too much replayability and if you haven't noticed I play a lot of games. Hell, I still go back to Diablo 1 and 2 and even Half-Life.

I'm not saying this is a bad game I'm saying it is a game that has GREAT atmosphere but overall gameplay and mechanics make this game feel like a chore more than an enjoyable adventure, kind of like how Kingdom of Almaur or whatever was, amazing concept, great locations, but overall felt like a chore to keep playing.

And as for you going on about games that offers challenges. Well, they are straight up marketed like that. EVERY body knows Ninja Gaiden is hard, that is their selling point. To say a game targets a challenging auidence but then doesn't even have challenging modes straight off the get go is simply, by your words, nonsense. You'd end up turning off your challenging target auidence because they have to make their first playthrough on a normal settings. Ninja Gaiden's easy setting, made fun of the player then you couldn't even finish the game on that setting, it clearly was not targeted for that but by your logic it would be so now you have a game with an easier mode, that still pretty rough, makes fun of the player, and then cuts off so you can't play the what was it? last 3 chapters of that game? But no you're right they shipped it off and targeted more casual players. I'm sorry, I get what you are saying and I respect your viewpoints but when you say it targets to harder audiences but then punishes them by forcing them to easier modes, isn't targeting that audience. It is literally just extra.

Again all of those are factors outside the game itself and they don't make a great deal of sense for judging who the game creators intended their game for or who the game ultimatly caters to. People speed run every Zelda game out there and those are made for children to be able to beat, Ico probably gets speedruns and it's a linear adventure made mechanically to be easy to pick up and play. If the catagory you use to judge whether a game is made to be challenging or not includes a lot of easy games it clearly isn't working. It's also a quality any game could have and not the result of any particular design.

Achievements is your logic not mine, lets not go back there. I wouldn't point to that I would simply say that anyone could speedrun anything regardless of the game's intent or challenge level.

Marketing likely has nothing to do with the developers or their intent. Godhand had camp and funny adverts, so did Wonderful 101(which also looks like a kids game) yet those are some of
The most difficult action games. I don't even know what the ads for this game were but I see people parroting a phrase that it was meant to be a return to Mikami's roots, if that was from marketing then the marketing was selling the game to a more challenge oriented player as that is Mikami's bread and butter.

Ninja Gaiden 2 is what I was referring to, it is easy on normal and you have to unlock harder modes. Yet its audience is likely the same one that played Ninja Gaiden 1. It doesn't have challenging modes off the bat. Neither does Bayonetta, Wonderful 101, Bayonetta 2, DMC1234, Vanquish, Godhand, Transformers Devastation and yet I would consider those games some of the most difficult and deep 3d action games available. In fact it's more the case that the more difficult action games don't offer the challenging modes up from the start.
A lot of those games also offer up upgrade systems that serious players will likely ignore to increase challenge.

Not to mention that if we are talking about factors outside the game being used to judge who the target audience is then I would say using the developers name in promotional material would then indicate that the game is aimed at fans of that developer who is known for making challenging systems oriented games.

Having to patch the game's easy mode to be made easier because people complained is a good external indicator of who the games initial normal mode audience is.

Deciding whether a game is replayable or not based simply on whether you liked it or not isn't useful or worthwhile stating. You may as well say you don't like it then not go on to talk about replayability because a person who doesn't like a game is unlikely to play it, that's obvious.
Stating whether a game offers up enough variety or lacks it to make each playthrough differ is more useful. I would argue this game offers up that variety, which the upgrades, weapons, rearranged modes, various viable styles help provide.

Honestly I don't really consider this so much up for debate I'd rather we not belabor it other than to say the upgrade system plays a big role in offering replayability and challenge. Having it in the game is a massive boon for people seeking challenge and it shouldn't be handwaved away as a mere extra topping especially when games like the Souls series have their difficulty solely determined by similar upgrade systems.

As much as I love Team Ico games, they aren't hugely replayable due to there being no variety. I don't like MGS4 at all but the amount of weapons, approaches and so on make it very replayable.

Things like one hit kills, abundant traps that can kill, weak melee, frequent bosses, resource management are there on every difficulty and none of those are put there for people who want an easy game. If you view the black bars as intended design then that counts as well. What's more you won't find those elements in games that seek to appeal to a crowd uninterested in a hard time.

When a game is designed with an audience interested in less complex design in mind the people that do want complex design do not get little feats, they get ♥♥♥♥♥♥. When Dead Rising went more and more for the people seeking easier gameplay the people wanting the older, more complex systems were left in the cold because those systems conflict with dumbed down design.

Nightmare in this game is well balanced with clearly a lot of effort put in, Akumu I would say wasn't. It's not a fair comparison to say that because one dev was lazy another was as well.

I don't know, you have a very games as products view of things that I can't really relate to, looking a everything but the game itself, talking about marketing, target sales groups etc. I would have to assume you either work in marketing or are studying it. That is what a business might view the game as but personally I believe the people making the game made design choices based around what would be fun and interesting and not target sales groups.

Everything outside the game itself has zero interest to me. Street Fighter 4 without Street Fighter 4's fight scene is still a competitive fighting game, it would just be without a fight scene.