The Evil Within

The Evil Within

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d.saffection May 28, 2017 @ 7:26am
Frustration about Laura battle and other stuff (spoilers)
Spoilers ahead!

I really need to vent some frustration about this game… I know that its challenging aspects aren’t for everyone and there has been a good deal of discussion about this. But seriously, some parts of it are so ridiculously frustrating it really makes me wish I hadn’t started playing it in the first place. For there’s so much that I really love about it that I don’t just want to give up, nor do I want to lower the difficulty just for the odd unfair moments scattered across (if I’m not mistaken, once lowered, the difficulty cannot be raised again, which is a pointless limitation in itself, and many other sections would be too easy for me then). It feels like once I’ve started it, I’m more or less obliged to finish it. The settings and creatures are really imaginative, the storytelling is pleasantly unconventional and the basic gameplay works, so I’d certainly love to see what else they’ve come up with. BUT…

One bit that particularly annoyed me was the Laura fight in Chapter 10. I was virtually stuck for months, not so much for not being able to do it, but for finding it unnecessarily stressful and taking away an awful lot of my time for countless attempts without actually being any fun. And I’m saying this after being pretty annoyed by the earlier seemingly endless boss fights. At the end I had to accept that without the rocket launcher from the New Game+, I wouldn’t be able to actually defeat the creature, at least not without wasting several more hours of my precious time on this terrible scene. Several walkthroughs claim that if you exploit the fire traps, she only takes a couple more hits, but this definitely isn’t true in Survival. I lit her with matches on every corpse she uses for spawning and lured her into the two fire traps in the final room, and still, no matter how many explosive bolts and shotgun blasts I pumped into her, she wouldn’t die. Sooner or later I’d always make a mistake and die myself. And mind you, I’m not a beginner at this by a long shot (nor am I squeamish about horror for that matter)! So finally I figured, okay, I’ll do without the extra gel and achievement I would have gotten from her (though that was hard enough to accept), but what I find absolutely unforgiveable is that you can only enter the bonus room near the elevator if you’ve actually defeated her, which for all intents and purposes is bloody impossible in my book.

The fact that you get thrown into the next boss fight just a few minutes later was just ridiculous, too, especially considering you get 20000 Gel for that creature while you’d only get 8000 (I believe it would have been) for Laura, who’s much harder to defeat. But at least I’d finished that idiotic section. On to Chapter 11, where I land in the water at some point, discover a statue, climb a car in order to be able to shoot it, and then find out that I can’t collect the key from the water! Apparently, according to a walkthrough, I should have placed the statue right in front of the car in order to be able to pick up the key. Seriously, who the hell is supposed to know that beforehand, and again, what’s the point of such a limitation? Of course, if I wanted to replay that section in order to get the key, I’d have to do the long-winded fight scene preceding it all over again due to the messed-up checkpoint system. Boy, this game is such an awful waste of potential, I’m really not sure if I can force myself to continue, and perhaps even play the DLCs included in my version afterwards. I mean, life is frustrating enough, why would I want to subject myself to this sort of unnecessary frustration in my spare time?
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Showing 1-15 of 19 comments
E.P.D. Gaffney May 28, 2017 @ 10:11am 
I think you're just focussing on the frustrating aspects here. I grant you that this is among the more frustrating games I've played, but the fact that it's the best designed of all the frustrating games I've played (besides maybe Metal Gear Rising) made it feel rewarding to me and it is among my favourites.

In a game like this, surviving is generally meant to be your first priority, and that means running away when you can. Laura is not to be defeated on an initial playthrough, and when you do, your reward is more the satisfaction of having done it than anything else, although it nets you all her gel as well as the items near the lift (including a key that could open a door to even more gel). It could be argued that the last boss fight in Chapter 10 gives you so much gel as you're not expected to have defeated Laura but you still will have gone through hell. So it could be said to be 10K for each of the two.

As for the statue that fell into the water, that's a bit more understandable to me, why you'd be annoyed. But I've realised that Japanese games are like that; they give you a set of available actions and that's it. So, if you need to duck under something, you use the 'sneak' button even though you're really just trying to duck. In Silent Hill 3 on hard mode, there are spikes that descend from a ceiling to just past the top of your head and you die. The solution? Equip your handgun because the stance for having it equipped is slightly lower to the ground than the one without the handgun. The whole Metal Gear Solid series did a lot of this as well. Similarly, in Resident Evil, you can't pick up bullets and put them directly into your gun. If you have no inventory space, you do not pick up or use the bullets in any way.

I missed a few statues myself, and I think the point is to make note of them for a second playthrough.

But the game is less frustrating after Chapter 10. The final horde fight in the final chapter I remember frustrating me but my girlfriend only died twice there I think, so it can't be that bad. Besides that, I feel the game is a bit less frustrating until the end but bear in mind I have a high threshold for hardship and luxury makes me uncomfortable.

The first two DLCs are great and quite different to the base game. More stealth-horror and puzzle-solving.
Last edited by E.P.D. Gaffney; May 28, 2017 @ 10:12am
stonersunshine May 29, 2017 @ 10:40am 
I remember 10 being the only chapter to ever make me frustrated on my 1st playthrough but it wound up being a favourite on replays. It is truly a perfect chapter, you might not appreciate it when it's happening to you at the time though. The whole game is about putting you through the wringer and that chapter epitomizes that idea. The game's job is to make you tense and stress you out so getting frustrated once in a while is to be expected, take a break.

Laura is an optional challenge with a reward that doesn't match up to the resources it would take to kill her, it's more like compensation. People that didn't try to kill Laura do not need the compensation. If you were to decide to do a very strict challenge run you might punch her to death and find the reward to be a borderline necessity, so it has it's purpose outside of a standard first playthrough. I believe that Laura during that section might be the boss with the most health, she sure can take a beating.

The floating statue, if it's the one I'm thinking of, is a simple puzzle of the statue floats but the key does not. Put something beneath the statue to prevent the key sinking out of reach. Swimming the key about is wonky as hell but the key potentially slipping into the water feels appropriate to me. Don't worry about the statues, think of them as an unnecessary bonus as the game doesn't expect you to have found them all.

I'm not keen on the next two chapters of the game personally but not because of difficulty reasons. You have faced the most challenging parts of the game already and there's not much coming up outside of the chapters 11 and 12 that I would call frustrating. Chapters 13,14 and 15 are worth pushing ahead for if you've enjoyed the game at any point.

On swapping difficulty on the fly it's easily explained as the game's challenge does not lie in overcoming any one fight but in managing resources across many fights over the course of the game. On easier difficulties you are afforded more resources and given less cause to use them so you can't simply up the difficulty and recieve the same level of challenge.
d.saffection May 30, 2017 @ 6:01am 
Thanks for your input, guys. That all sounds pretty reasonable. I'm glad to hear the following chapters will be less frustrating, and the remark about the DLCs sounds promising, too, since I was hoping for more stealth and puzzle solving. I did love the way Chapter 11 started, design-wise - despite striking similarities to Crysis 3, it still feels really imaginative. So I guess that sooner or later I'll finish the game after all.

As for the Laura fight, I'm probably too much of a completionist/perfectionist for my own good sometimes. From my experience with other games I sort of expected myself to be able to pull off the whole thing without much difficulty, and it felt like a failure not being able to defeat her properly. The same sort of completionism applies to the statue: sure enough, I've missed a couple of statues already, but found it extremely frustrating to have discovered one and then not being able to collect the key. This whole mechanic of grinding for gel and upgrading as much as possible, to me, is one of the main driving forces that keep the game motivating. But then, that's the Deus Ex / System Shock 2 / etc. fan speaking...

Thanks for the heads-up about those playthroughs, holychair; I'll take a look!
E.P.D. Gaffney May 30, 2017 @ 8:45am 
The truth is, I didn't remember this at the time but I took a very long break from this game at the Laura fight. However, it wasn't that I was frustrated so much as I didn't want to accept that she couldn't be beaten with what I had at my disposal. So, similar to yourself, I just kept trying and then I eventually realised I could escape but didn't want to do so. I really wanted all the stuff by the lift and I wanted to say I'd done it. Everyone that killed her seemed to do on a second playthrough, so I waited until someone would upload a guide on how to do it if you didn't have the fire bolts or the rocket launcher, &c. No guide came (though I believe they exist now; this was in 2014) and I reluctantly accepted I'd have to settle on escaping, which I did. I loved the next boss fight but that doesn't seem to be a popular opinion.

I don't want to spoil chapter 11 but it has a lot of stuff I like. I love the level design with the crumbling city, which at least that much I know you've seen.

What the crumbling city reminds me of is a relatively unknown film that is possibly my favourite of all time, called Dark City. It got slightly more recognition when Roger Ebert did a master class on it and people started writing and reposting articles on-line that claimed the first Matrix had lifted much of its idea and æsthetic from Dark City, which was the first thing I said when I seen the Matrix. Glad (and shocked) people finally noticed. If you can watch it at some point, you should. It's much better (well, maybe not objectively I suppose) than the Matrix and different in many ways, if that put you off at-all.
d.saffection May 30, 2017 @ 8:57am 
Haha, Dark City is actually one of my all-time favourites - spot-on! :) You've made me want to re-watch it soon, though. Aesthetically it's really quite unique. The atmosphere of the production design always resonates way beyond the closing shot. It's definitely one of the best films dealing with this subject matter, far superior to, say, The 13th Floor, which is probably better-known.

It's quite a relief to read that you've actually had a similar experience with the Laura fight. I did like the next boss for its super-twisted design, by the way, even if the fight itself was a bit uninspired (as in: you essentially have to pump it full of lead, there's no trick involved). The carpark arena was cool, too. I just felt it came way too soon after the Laura fight (or rather, flight).

You're right, Chapter 11 is fun. I just played for an hour or so. It has some really strong fighting scenes.
E.P.D. Gaffney May 30, 2017 @ 10:39am 
Really! That's amazing! I have literally never asked someone had they seen Dark City and received an affirmative response. I actually had to google The 13th Floor and remind myself of it. I may have seen that one but if I did, it didn't impact me like Dark City. In a similar bout of cultural ignorance, when I think of Kiefer Sutherland I think of Dr Schreber whilst everyone else thinks of the tough guy from 24.

All through Evil Within, my girlfriend was shouting, 'He can tune!' or 'kyune' as some of the American extras seemed to pronounce it.

The DLCs are very stealth-orientated, with a fair few mandatory puzzles but 16 optional ones that I think you'll not need further explanation on once you get a few minutes into the first one. Each of the two has eight of the type in question.
E.P.D. Gaffney May 30, 2017 @ 1:20pm 
Originally posted by holychair:
I don't know "Dark City", but will look out for it - I very much love the atmosphere of chapter 11.
Oh that's right! I knew I remembered someone talking about chapter 11's atmosphere a few weeks ago maybe and told my girlfriend about the comment when she got up to that section. It was almost definitely your comment.

Dark City is, well, darker, in atmosphere but otherwise a lot of it will remind you of chapter 11 in this game. If it were a more popular film I'd be certain Mikami had got his idea from there.
d.saffection May 31, 2017 @ 10:32am 
I think it's not that little known, actually. Sure, it's not a super-popular mainstream feature by a long shot, but it's reasonably well-known in certain circles. I guess it depends on who you're talking to. Myself, I've heard the opening lines ("First, there was darkness. Then came the strangers..." and so forth) sampled in music quite a bit. One example is the song "Rumours About Angels" by Diary of Dreams, which opens up an entire album with those lines. The film seems to be very popular in the Psytrance scene, too (Darkpsy in particular).

On a somewhat related note, I re-watched Carpenter's "They Live" recently - another dystopian classic, albeit with a tone very different from that of "Dark City". In case you're unaware of it, it's more of a really cynical satire, but a must-see IMHO. Your girlfriend's "He can tune!" made me think of "They Live" where an old woman says, "I have one that can see!"
E.P.D. Gaffney May 31, 2017 @ 10:49am 
Originally posted by Gaius H. Gruenkoch:
I think it's not that little known, actually. Sure, it's not a super-popular mainstream feature by a long shot, but it's reasonably well-known in certain circles. I guess it depends on who you're talking to. Myself, I've heard the opening lines ("First, there was darkness. Then came the strangers..." and so forth) sampled in music quite a bit. One example is the song "Rumours About Angels" by Diary of Dreams, which opens up an entire album with those lines. The film seems to be very popular in the Psytrance scene, too (Darkpsy in particular).

On a somewhat related note, I re-watched Carpenter's "They Live" recently - another dystopian classic, albeit with a tone very different from that of "Dark City". In case you're unaware of it, it's more of a really cynical satire, but a must-see IMHO. Your girlfriend's "He can tune!" made me think of "They Live" where an old woman says, "I have one that can see!"
It's become slightly more popular in recent years, interesting enough. That Roger Ebert master class and whatever caused people to start reposting articles and blogs supporting the theory that the Martix got its ideas there seemed to do it.

I'm not familiar with anything else you've mentioned besides the Carpenter film, which I don't believe I've ever seen (maybe twenty years ago but not recently anyhow).

The opening lines you mention, if you didn't know, were added afterwards as the company were afraid the story wouldn't be understood if they didn't hammer it into our brains. The director's cut doesn't include that part and is overall superior. However, that monologue is none the less classic and for what it was, it was expertly crafted. I love it but prefer it as an extra thing to look at after the film.

Another change from the director's cut was that Jennifer Connelly had originally sung all her own songs but the company wanted to get a professional singer to do them instead, which is what you hear in the original release. Proyas's director's cut returns Connelly's versions and though it's a subtle thing, it's more fitting as her character is not a professional with a record contract nor would her live versions be that polished, moreover as she had a lot of other stuff on her mind when she sang them. It just feels more grounded hearing her sing her own character's songs.

Three weeks is three weeks; no days off for good behaviour.
d.saffection May 31, 2017 @ 11:10am 
Now that you mention it, I remember reading about that, too, and finding it ironic that those lines ended up having such a great impact. Funny I forgot about this detail, considering I actually have the Director's Cut on my Blu-ray shelf. I didn't know about the songs - will pay extra attention to them next time!

Anyway, the basic idea for The Matrix is even older: a similar, if far more down-to-earth scenario was played out as early as 1973 in Fassbinder's "Welt am Draht" (World on a Wire), and I wouldn't be surprised if there were examples even further back in the history of cinema. There likely have been some in literature, at the very least ("Welt am Draht" is based on a book anyhow). It's not surprising you don't remember The 13th Floor, by the way; it was really quite forgettable.
E.P.D. Gaffney May 31, 2017 @ 12:42pm 
I think the basic theme of the Matrix is far older than that, to the point of maybe even being intrinsically part of human nature. The concept that the world we 'live' in isn't the 'real' world is the basis of religion in many cases, or (loosely) something so mundane as the expression 'the grass is always greener on the other side'.

I know that when I was younger I theorised that perhaps my dreams were real and my life was the dream, or that when people acted funny, that was a fault in the false world that had been built for me, perhaps by me. I often wondered was I the only real person that I was dealing with. I realise now that my parents were insane, one of them being a narcissist and a hoarder, among other things, and both of them enabling my brother, who was a narcissist and possibly a sociopath. Haven't quite worked him out... Anyway, with that sort of upbringing it's easy to see why I'd entertain the idea that I was the only person in the house that had real thoughts and the others were perhaps a part of my dream world or alternatively the programmed world that my brain inhabited.

The Allegory of the Cave by Plato seems to be a major influence and among the first to put the concept on paper. Descartes's work explores the idea of the Matrix almost identically. Kantian philosophy is somewhat related in that its basis is that we are limited by what we perceive, and we are in that way disconnected from the 'real' world.

But as for past examples, though I know a few, I feel I'm missing a lot, mostly older films and books that I know reminded me of Dark City at the time but which I can't seem to recall now. Metropolis as you doubtless know was a large part of Dark City's inspiration, which was more a visual and 'tonal' inspiration but does have a similar plot trajectory to a degree. You can see somewhat similar ideas in things like The Giver from the '90s as well, and more loosely 1984, the Body Snatchers (and the adapted 'Invasion of' them), and Brave New World (which was banned in Ireland on release for ridiculous reasons).

Googling has turned up 'Simulacra and Simulation' and 'The Tunnel under the World' as well but I'm not familiar with either. Interesting to me is that Welt am Draht is based on a book called Simulacron-3, which uses a similar word to 'simulacra' but doesn't appear to be related in any salient way apart from some thematic similarities.

Welt am Draht sounds interesting but I've never seen or read it. It means 'World on THE Wire' as well, and I'm curious as to why they would change it when doing the English translation. Any insight into that?
E.P.D. Gaffney May 31, 2017 @ 1:09pm 
Originally posted by holychair:
Originally posted by E.P.D. Gaffney:

Dark City is, well, darker, in atmosphere but otherwise a lot of it will remind you of chapter 11 in this game. If it were a more popular film I'd be certain Mikami had got his idea from there.

I am about to buy "Dark City" - there seems to be an original theatrical version and also a director's cut (11 minutes longer). Which one should I get?
That's fantastic. You won't be disappointed.

Director's cut easily.

But after you've watched it you should watch the introduction to the theatrical release, which was an added scene that was well made but which was mostly added because they were afraid audiences wouldn't 'get it' if not explained plainly. I imagine you can find the theatrical release's introduction on YouTube and that'll be fine, unless the director's cut has it as an extra which I kind of remember being the case but I'm not sure.
stonersunshine Jun 3, 2017 @ 7:28am 
This wound up being a good read for movies.

I've seen Dark Place and it's definitely more well known now but I didn't know all that stuff about the directors cut.

Never heard of Welt am Draht but it sounds like my sort of thing.

All that crazy dream talk reminds me of The Lathe Of Heaven which is about a man whose dreams change reality. He goes to a psychiatrist to get help to stop dreaming but instead the doctor uses his dream power to create a perverse utopia. The lines between dream and reality get blurred more and more as it goes on. It's a comedy.
Jayson Jun 8, 2017 @ 12:18am 
First, I appreciate all these film recommendations.

Second, I feel like there are a lot of moments in this game where the mechanics seem to kind of...oppose the feeling this game was going for, and those moments are usually when I end up giving up in attempted playthroughs. I don't think it's difficulty spikes for me, but more of suddenly having to play the game in a different way from what I've previously been doing to succeed in a given chapter. That totally sucks too because there's some really neat stuff here, but man, I wish it was polished a bit more. I'm definitely going to try to make it through the game completely for once, but that's been my experience each time.

I wish Shadows of the D***ed was on PC so I could play them side by side :(
stonersunshine Jun 8, 2017 @ 6:23pm 
Originally posted by holychair:
I'm still waiting for "Dark City" director's cut to arrive in the mail, but in the meantime I received "Welt am Draht" which I also ordered. This is a work of art more than just a movie - alot of the atmosphere and scenes reminded me of David Lynch's movies, or rather: I think I now see that David Lynch got some inspiration from Fassbinder.

Do you know this phenomenon where you were certain that something was in a movie, but then you waited for the scene and it didn't happen when you rewatched it? I actually couldn't remember that much from watching "World am Draht" way back, just a few bits and pieces and the general atmosphere, but I was dead certain that there was a scene where the book "World as Will and Representation" of Arthur Schopenhauer could be seen. However, in the restored version which I now watched, it wasn't there ...

I've only seen the first half of World on a Wire but I see what you mean about it being reminiscent of David Lynch, especially the scenes set in a club. The way the camera sweeps around the rooms, the way bystanders pose silently as decoration, the director certainly knows how to keep a 3 hour long movie about people talking in rooms interesting.

Yes I know the phenomenon. Memories are easily distorted, that is why they must be cherished.
I'm having the opposite effect of that in that the movie is giving me a lot of deja vu, especially the scene with the bricks, but I'm certain I've never seen it.
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Date Posted: May 28, 2017 @ 7:26am
Posts: 19