Suggestion: stop starving so fast

[AggressionSsb]

Seriously every time I go out for 10 minutes to find some loot I start starving to death. Why do I starve 20x faster than real life. You should only have to eat 1 animal like every 30mins. Not 4 every 15 minutes. It really make that part of the game a chore more than anything. Not to mention I'm not even sure salt respawns. Those filter fish are pretty rare too so water is a limited resource IN A ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ OCEAN. We have the super tech to spawn submarine out of thin air but not turn salt water into pure?

[Flayra]

Thanks Xen.

Don't worry, there's not going to be a "stomach bar". I may have to remove this approach if I can't make it work without another HUD element, but I'm hoping it will just be obvious and intuitive. "Oh, I just crammed 3 boomerangs and 2 waters in my mouth, of course I threw up".

I'll have the stomach deplete itself much more quickly so over time you'll just intuitively grasp how much you can eat without barfing. The penalties won't be horrible either so I'm hoping it own't be too painful to learn.

[Hex: Onii-Chan]

Originally posted by Malikyte:

Originally posted by Kasseopea:

Yeah, but what would be the point otherwise? Let's say you make a survival game that is realistic. Oh, you found a piece of meat somewhere and ate it? Good job, for the next 50 real-time hours you have diarrhea. Oh, so you broke your leg? Welp, sorry mate, i guess nothing will heal it faster than 2-4 weeks of laying in a bed.

If you found like 2-3 snacks and could last with it for days, there would be no incentive to find that stuff at all, unless it is ultra rare, which in turn will aggrovate people.

This really is a pathetic cop-out at best. Believe it or not, it IS possible to go about fixing a problem without only going to extremes. Surprising, I know. And you know what? I see nothing wrong with raw meat making you sick. Most survival games already penalize you for not properly preparing your food before you eat it. Minecraft, Stranded Deep, seriously this is not a new concept. As for the broken leg BS, if you can just magically fix your leg instantly with some morphine-on-steroids, why even have broken legs in the game in the first place?

What you fail to understand is there needs to be a balance between realism and playability. Right now, the hunger mechanics in SN lack both. It's not realistic, and it just turns the game into a constant grind to track down food - which, by the way, is a finite resource for some ungodly reason. Apparently basic biology doesn't exist on this alien planet and everything on it was simply made by some bearded dude in the sky and nothing ever reproduces, not even living creatures.

Geez, someone has his period i guess.

Point being there has to be a balance between realism and fun. Still Suit basically removes the need for water and the heat knife makes gathering food very easy. If you want to go for a deep-sea expedition where you expect to find no fish, cure 10 rations and get some bleached water. It will be enough to keep you alive for a long while.

No idea why it is finite for you as well. The algae alone are so numerous, that it should be enough for hundrets of hours.

If you wouldn't be able to fix yourself up to 100% instantly i.e., nobody would go exploring, since you will be bitten quite often. Or stung. Or poisoned. Or farted on.

Sorry to pop your bubble, but that's how gamedesign works. Sure, starvation could be maybe 20% or 30% slower, but with the heat knife it is really alright.

Originally posted by Flayra:

Hey guys,

Thanks for the discussion and lively debate. I've reduced the speeds of hunger and thirst for months now and I'm starting to think that no matter how much I reduce it, I will hear from people who think that it's a chore. That's why we have Freedom mode in there, for people who don't like playing like this.

Nevertheless, I do think it needs some help. I'm working on this right now:

https://trello.com/c/iT2cGhGs

Stuff like "reward for variety" may cause another uproar, since players don't want to swim in massive circles to get rare species. Even if it just a bonus, people may take it as a requirement to keep yourself "properly" nourished.

Adding recipes on the other hand would be nice. Like mushroom salad or algae soup, you know, stuff that is not fish.

[Malikyte]

Originally posted by Flayra:

Hey guys,

Thanks for the discussion and lively debate. I've reduced the speeds of hunger and thirst for months now and I'm starting to think that no matter how much I reduce it, I will hear from people who think that it's a chore. That's why we have Freedom mode in there, for people who don't like playing like this.

Nevertheless, I do think it needs some help. I'm working on this right now:

https://trello.com/c/iT2cGhGs

Again, Freedom mode is not a solution at all because in lieu of fixing the issues, you just get rid of the mechanic completely. Why play a "survival" game that doesn't have survival mechanics at all? This goes back to what I said earlier - no matter how many times you change the code, if it's more or less set in stone there will always be people who aren't satisfied with it. The best approach would be to add sliders. If it's not worth the time and effort to make sliders specifically for hunger and thirst, then incorporate them into a difficulty slider - something most games already have.

Giving the players the ability to custom-tailor their experience will do nothing but benefit your game. I understand if it's not a priority at this moment because the game is still in EA and there are other things you need to get done first, but it's something you should give serious consideration to.

[sarcasm83]

Originally posted by Flayra:

Hey guys,

Thanks for the discussion and lively debate. I've reduced the speeds of hunger and thirst for months now and I'm starting to think that no matter how much I reduce it, I will hear from people who think that it's a chore. That's why we have Freedom mode in there, for people who don't like playing like this.

Nevertheless, I do think it needs some help. I'm working on this right now:

https://trello.com/c/iT2cGhGs

Love the idea of the countdown stopping for some time when you'd fill up to 100%... Get a full stomach and feel satiated for longer. Makes sense :) After all, it's true that when we feel really full or ‘satiated’ after a meal, we are likely to go much longer before we feel hungry or may eat less at the next meal.

"Eating becomes a "skill" that you can get better at over time"

Love that idea aswell; Something you can work on to improve the food management.
Already really digging the stillsuit that gives you "free" water every now and then. Only needing to focus on food more. One of my favorite things in the game right now.

Not that sure of it becoming a skill for the player character though, to be honest.
It doesn't seem really logical "storywise" (unless you make some sort of "faster evolution on the planet" element in the story).

I think you could plan on introducing some upgrades for the fabricator that would enable you to manufacture better food from every creature. (Or the workbench, as it seems that's where the more advanced fabricating "is at.")

Maybe even making meals that stay in your system for longer, slowing or stopping down the countdown.

It would also be VERY welcome to be able to cook up some sort of a truely filling feast "item", from a set ingredients.
Like just for an example; 1x peeper, 1x hoverfish, 1x salt deposit, 2x airsack/water, 4x creepvine = a "soup" of everything you need for a good meal, to take on your adventures.
(This would also kinda work for the "more variety" idea, as you'd gather several ingredients to make this "superfood")

It would enable you to refill your bars "on the go" easily if on a longer trip away from your base, while taking less space in your inventory than a whole bunch of different food and water items would. Something that takes a while to set up and collect items for, but works wonders when venturing further away.

Though sure, the stillsuit and the heated knife make it easier to eat on the go, but I'd still prefer to be able to "forget about food" for the duration of the trip and just eat something easy once from my inventory, that I have cooked up specifically for that purpose when my nutrient levels get low.

Either way, great work with the game and always looking forward to more updates!
Love the game :)

[MoonCrystal]

Originally posted by Flayra:

Hey guys,

Thanks for the discussion and lively debate. I've reduced the speeds of hunger and thirst for months now and I'm starting to think that no matter how much I reduce it, I will hear from people who think that it's a chore. That's why we have Freedom mode in there, for people who don't like playing like this.

Nevertheless, I do think it needs some help. I'm working on this right now:

https://trello.com/c/iT2cGhGs

it seems that you said that it is implemented. However, I don't see any difference. The problem is that we spend more time to find found than really play. I mean, if I search for titane (for example), I get out of my base for 5-6 mns and I'm "starving". I find some food, eat and drink, and I get out again for 5 mns and....ho I'm hungry again.

Whatever I eat, it's the same. I tried to eat a variety of fishes, try to wait before eat again, try to eat more than 100 etc... the hunger go down too quickly or too quick to have time to explore for some times without have to eat or something.

Also, the suit that recycles water is totally useless because each time we drink water produced by this suit, we loose some hunger point.

I played a lot of survival before this one, and it's the first time that I think that there is a "problem" with the hunger, thurst balance. When I saw your topic on Trello, I said "cool something interresting here" but for now, didn't see really any difference.

[[NTOG] Rave]

Easiest fix without making everyone throw up randomly in their stillsuit is to just introduce sustainable food. IE how about some creature respawns. i see massive schools of them swimming around as merely background noise. give me a break. you devs keep floating further and further away from the actual survival aspects of your own game. the steps are easy and are the exact same for anyone: Food /shelter /warmth. You have shelter on ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ steroids and food ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ lacking. Warmth is perfect. tone down the eyecandy (building) and get to work on the food please.

[Grey Lil Helper]

[sarcasm on]
I suppose for ppl like Mr_Sugus hardmode is not nearly hard enough. So i suggest adding another mode: Hell-Mode
- Like in Hardmode you only have one life.
- Your fabricator in the lifepod is broken so you can't craft anything at all until you find a replacement within the Aurora.
- Carnivorous fish are doubled in numbers and follow any trace of weakness and blood in the water(even when offscreen or not even loaded into cache!).
- Reapers are doubled in swimming speed.
- You start the game heavily injured and with the perk 'hemophiliac'. Meaning you can never cure your bleeding and therefore the number of carnivorous fish on your heels increase indefinitely.
- Every second of survival gives points so those ppl can compare their "skills" via online highscore list.
[sarcasm off]

NO!
Seriously...
If I want to get my masochistic 5 minutes then I play "Don't Starve"... It's really hard to survive there and the loading button is your best friend. Food/shelter/warmth my a$$...

I don't want SN to be like this and I enjoy the leisure of the quiet waters as I know where the dangerous fish are and where I better not leave the cyclops.

And @devs:
Keep on track and do your thing! Everything you added to the game is great so far.
I for my part know that the game is still alpha. ;)

[Maj. John Brown]

Originally posted by Kasseopea:

Originally posted by Malikyte:

That's the biggest problem with most "survival"/"realism" games.
Frankly, the fact that you starve to death in less than in-game day in so-called "survival" games these days completely destroys any sort of realism or even enjoyable survival, all it does is turn the game into a constant resource grind trying to find food.

Developers of games that implement hunger and thirst seem to forget the very basic fact that a human being can survive for weeks without food (won't be very happy or strong, but it is possible), whereas without water you'll die within a few days. This oversight of something so simple really irks me in games like this, where not only are you CONSTANTLY having to eat and drink, your hunger actually depletes even faster than your thirst.

Yeah, but what would be the point otherwise? Let's say you make a survival game that is realistic. Oh, you found a piece of meat somewhere and ate it? Good job, for the next 50 real-time hours you have diarrhea. Oh, so you broke your leg? Welp, sorry mate, i guess nothing will heal it faster than 2-4 weeks of laying in a bed.

If you found like 2-3 snacks and could last with it for days, there would be no incentive to find that stuff at all, unless it is ultra rare, which in turn will aggrovate people.

We're not asking for ultra realism, so this post is irrelevant. This is the same argument people always use when they're against nerfing hunger/thirst mechanics, and it's pretty dumb. All we're asking for is a little break when it comes to the constant chore of finding food, mushrooms, copper, quartz, etc. so we can not only keep ourselves from starving, but also fuel this sleek "futuristic" submarine that apparently runs off of an early 1920's dreadnought's engine (is crazy inefficient).

[Vince]

agree, in survival thirst and starve drop rate used to be slighty more grindy than it should be.
(not tested/verified lately, but a very few update ago)

Tend to desserve both: base building, component farming, and exploration.

Edit: (also notice that in // Subnautica have the oxygen refill mechanics wich is quite constraining in itself when out of vehicles, that's also why the combination of both mechanics oxygen + water&food might appear like that, most of the other survival game don't have thoose mutliple mechanics combination impacting that much on travelling capacities/abilites more or less "recursive" path unlike subnautica @ Flayra ; also may be a tweakable thirst/food drop rate ratio @ survival game start could be interesting either to player side currently test differents value and get feedback about it faster than actually, either for final build)

& 2

[Vince]

Just checked with the latest build, it's much better now, i would still go for something like .1 to .15 slower than actually, just to enhance and add some more value to the time spent exploring and component farm abilties for base building.

[flatdarkmars]

Since different people have different ideas about how fast hunger & thirst should progress, why not simply implement an option slider that lets the player adjust the rate of food/water depletion. That way, everyone can set the "difficulty" of the game's survival elements to whatever they personally feel is most fun. Seems like this would be a relatively simple way to maximize player enjoyment. Giving the player options = good.

[Devin]

It just doesn't feel right that someone from a civilization that explores and settles other planets lacks the tech for filtering sea water or having a sustainable food source.

I'd suggest making a machine for the base that can produce water, but not something you can take with you. Then you still bottle water to bring on expeditions, but you can drink your fill at home.

[Monkeyjunky]

Originally posted by Devin:

...I'd suggest making a machine for the base that can produce water, but not something you can take with you. Then you still bottle water to bring on expeditions, but you can drink your fill at home.

That's a great idea, I also like the idea someone else had with making recipes, with some rarer ingredients needed to make food that cures hunger for a lot longer.

[boolybooly]

TBH I think barfing because you filled up on food sounds like anorexia bulemia sim, if you want to simulate repletion it would be better to reduce dive time to simulate the physiological demands of digestion, which consumes more oxygen and diverts blood from muscles. Plus its a well know piece of folk health wisdom that you should not go swimming too soon after a heavy meal and definitely an article of dive lore that its a very bad idea to dive after a heavy meal due to the issue of stomach cramps.

By reducing dive time for a full stomach and swim speed for an empty one you encourage a player to manage their calorific intake to optimise their performance, which is good karma for life training too! :)

But if you are going to make digestion a thing and the optimum a fine balance then I would agree that the timescale probably would be better lengthened, say doubled. As it is I could enjoy 50% longer.

Another thing you can do is provide opportunity food sources, so the Stalkers and sharks for example should provide multiple steaks if you are obliged to kill them, which should set you up for an hour or two, though if you have steaks they should decay and if food can decay you need a freezer.