Player Testing request: Watch ProgramData folder after loading save.

[ImHelping]

So one thing I've noticed that's been giving my tiny SSD a real workout for a while. Every time I load my save (In experimental), it stops to make a copy/paste of that save's entire folder (Even the save specific sceeenshots folder) into the ProgramData folder.

Normally, ProgramData is a hidden folder. As well, normally the temp save deletes itself when subnautica closes. So the only way most people would notice anything beyond "Boy, Subnautica sure takes a while loading" once the save files reach their usual large size, is to check that mid gameplay. Though I have had the misfortune of it sticking around leaving an extra 2 gigs of temp files I needed to throw Ccleaner at one time.

Some examples, before and after I applied the last huge 2 gig patch for experimental.

http://i.imgur.com/9bvfhyD.png

http://i.imgur.com/YneUvDO.png

Is it happening to other players in the live build?

Is it just happening to people in Experimental?

If other people are experiencing this, what do they think the cause or reason for such a thing is, given that creating a fresh copy of 1-2 gigs of data every time you load your game is quite the work out for a SSD or Hard drive.

For those not experiencing this (hopefully more people than not), what are your thoughts on what could be causing it? I've seen one person claim "They would have noticed" if this was happening, for example. But that was all that was said about the issue with no further detail given beyond it not even being their computer.

basic tips and tricks like "Just clear your cache" have also been fairly unhelpful with this situation. Given any late game save will quickly bloat back up just from traveling through multiple biomes and bases. Even without the quirky side effects often involved with erasing your cache.

Hopefully, some insight can be gained on the matter. I'm optimistic there will be more than snarky dismissals from people who wouldn't even want something like this discussed between players.

[🦊 Hermit]

Stable build here. I checked my ProgramData folder after reading your post, no references to Subnautica or anything related. Hopped onto the game, loaded up my save, played for ten mins or so then refreshed the folder view to check again. No changes, still nothing to do with Subnautica in there.

[Obraxis]

This is intended. We temporarily store some data on C drive now in those folders in case a user has a faster drive like a SSD (if there is space) and use it to help with performance.

The game should be removing the files on exit. If it's not, it's a bug.

[Ravo]

Originally posted by Obraxis:

This is intended. We temporarily store some data on C drive now in those folders in case a user has a faster drive like a SSD (if there is space) and use it to help with performance.

The game should be removing the files on exit. If it's not, it's a bug.

"We write 2 gigabytes of data to your C drive every time the game is started because it might improve performance."
I have an extra 2 gigs of memory. Give me the option to store that data on a ramdrive or at least give me the option to turn this feature off. This does not feel well thought out at all.

[Kanaro Min]

Originally posted by Ravo:

Originally posted by Obraxis:

This is intended. We temporarily store some data on C drive now in those folders in case a user has a faster drive like a SSD (if there is space) and use it to help with performance.

The game should be removing the files on exit. If it's not, it's a bug.

"We write 2 gigabytes of data to your C drive every time the game is started because it might improve performance."
I have an extra 2 gigs of memory. Give me the option to store that data on a ramdrive or at least give me the option to turn this feature off. This does not feel well thought out at all.

And it's going to shorten the lifespan of even the best SSD drives. I use a Samsung 850 Pro 512GB drive for my C/Gaming, along with a L1 software cache enhancer. Even it won't withstand that kind of writing indefinitely, unless the extra 2.2gb is cached between sessions in the temp folders. And it's lifespan with normal use is somewhere between 28 and 141 years.

Not sure why they chose this strategy, seeing as SSDs are sensitive to repeated writes. Perhaps Obraxis has more detailed information on it, and whether or not it hurts NAND endurance.

[Obraxis]

SSD lack of endurance is something which is very often overstated.

Most SSDs will last longer than your PC. Most modern brands such as Samsung or HyperX will handle up to 2PB (yes PB) before starting to have issues. This obviously differs from drive to drive, but in all likelihood your PC will die before your SSD will.

TechReport did an article on this back in 2014 which gives an interesting read. http://techreport.com/review/27436/the-ssd-endurance-experiment-two-freaking-petabytes

[Kanaro Min]

I think I read that article before purchasing my current SSD, it's a good re-read. Thanks Obraxis.

Does the game in fact, write (or re-write) 2.2GB every time it launches? If so I may have to strategize to move it off to a regular spindle drive, or give my L1 software a more aggressive caching strategy for the game, to avoid actual writes.

If however it simply does it once after an update and checks it's cache contents at runtime, then it's a total non-issue.

[cwsumner]

As I understand it, This kind of caching should be done in RAM and not on the drive.

Some of us have 16GB or even 32 GB of RAM, 2.2 GB is not a problem (for us at least). ;-)

[ImHelping]

Originally posted by Obraxis:

This is intended. We temporarily store some data on C drive now in those folders in case a user has a faster drive like a SSD (if there is space) and use it to help with performance.

The game should be removing the files on exit. If it's not, it's a bug.

Ouch. I assumed this was temporary, in the sense the fact you even do it at all was a temporary measure until you do full optimizations.

It's very disgouraging that this is apparently intended as a full time measure, especially when the saves themselves reach such large sizes the devs have already admited is a problem.

Stopping to doubling up the size of the save file every time you use it, feels like going in the opposite direction of fixing that, regardless of "Your hard drive can take it." Even if it can, that's still having to stop and double up your save files before it even loads them.

"There's a 2 gig folder in my ProgramData" is the sort of stuff you see in tech support forums after all. Which is why I was so worried in the first place.

Originally posted by Kanaro Min:

I think I read that article before purchasing my current SSD, it's a good re-read. Thanks Obraxis.

Does the game in fact, write (or re-write) 2.2GB every time it launches? If so I may have to strategize to move it off to a regular spindle drive, or give my L1 software a more aggressive caching strategy for the game, to avoid actual writes.

If however it simply does it once after an update and checks it's cache contents at runtime, then it's a total non-issue.

At the moment, it makes a copy of the save, when you load your save. EVERY time you load your game after starting the program. Then it erases it when you close the program. Then it will stop to recreate it again the next time you play.

Which is probbaly why so many people have it go "Not responding" for a while, or simply taking ages to load. It has to wait for it to copy/paste the whole save first. Every single time.

But they can't afford to leave it there either, because of the above mentioned "Looks like something out of a tech support forum" to have 1-2 gigs just floating around after you close a videogame, because saying "your hard drive can handle it" doesn't sound so good anymore when it's talking about a single save file taking 4 gigs of hard disk space at a time. Which is the current state of things.

I've got two drives, my relativly small SSD for my operating system, and my games themselves installed on the terrabytes big secondary hard drive. So from a technical standpoint there is plenty of "Space" to go around. But having either be treated as a "temporary measure" is still rather concerning. Even before how inneficient it is on the actual loading of saves in the first place.

So I really hope it's dealt with when the much hyped before launch optimizations take place. Or at the very least, drastically lessened as save files are polished so they can't exceed 500 megabytes tops or some other "Merely huge, not among the biggest game saves in the industry" size.

[Kanaro Min]

Originally posted by ImHelping:

Originally posted by Kanaro Min:

I think I read that article before purchasing my current SSD, it's a good re-read. Thanks Obraxis.

Does the game in fact, write (or re-write) 2.2GB every time it launches? If so I may have to strategize to move it off to a regular spindle drive, or give my L1 software a more aggressive caching strategy for the game, to avoid actual writes.

If however it simply does it once after an update and checks it's cache contents at runtime, then it's a total non-issue.

At the moment, it makes a copy of the save, when you load your save. EVERY time you load your game after starting the program. Then it erases it when you close the program. Then it will stop to recreate it again the next time you play.

Which is probbaly why so many people have it go "Not responding" for a while, or simply taking ages to load. It has to wait for it to copy/paste the whole save first. Every single time.

Yeah, if that's actually what's happening it's not at all efficient. As others have stated, RAM is less of an issue when compared to delay at game launch, SSD wear, etc. I have 64 gig of RAM, use 32 for my L1 drive cache, and am not at all worried about how much a game uses. Pre-caching in RAM would be far more desirable, ESPECIALLY since the game is a 64-bit only game. If you build/buy a computer with less than 8gb of RAM and have it use a 64-bit OS, you've mismatched the hardware and need to upgrade the RAM.

Might want to rethink this caching strategy UWE. Or allow us to designate the folder to use via the game's settings area. I have a secondary SSD I use purely for temp files, which would work perfectly for this purpose and keep writes lower on my main/gaming drive.

[Nyello]

Originally posted by ImHelping:

For those not experiencing this (hopefully more people than not), what are your thoughts on what could be causing it? I've seen one person claim "They would have noticed" if this was happening, for example. But that was all that was said about the issue with no further detail given beyond it not even being their computer.

Don't be bashful ImHelping, you can use my name when you are referring to me and one of our avid conversations. Like I said it's my finances computer. That he built. I showed him this lovely thread and turns out we do not have an SSD (like I said, I have no idea about this kind of stuff, I don't even know the difference between SSD and "normal" or whatever) therefore this:

Originally posted by Obraxis:

This is intended. We temporarily store some data on C drive now in those folders in case a user has a faster drive like a SSD (if there is space) and use it to help with performance.

The game should be removing the files on exit. If it's not, it's a bug.

Shows why I'm not noticing this duplication. That being said my performance is great and has only improving since the latest experimental updates. But now my hubby is looking into getting an SSD so....yay I guess. Lol.

[ImHelping]

Originally posted by Lucki:

Originally posted by ImHelping:

For those not experiencing this (hopefully more people than not), what are your thoughts on what could be causing it? I've seen one person claim "They would have noticed" if this was happening, for example. But that was all that was said about the issue with no further detail given beyond it not even being their computer.

Don't be bashful ImHelping, you can use my name when you are referring to me and one of our avid conversations. Like I said it's my finances computer. That he built. I showed him this lovely thread and turns out we do not have an SSD (like I said, I have no idea about this kind of stuff, I don't even know the difference between SSD and "normal" or whatever) therefore this:

Originally posted by Obraxis:

This is intended. We temporarily store some data on C drive now in those folders in case a user has a faster drive like a SSD (if there is space) and use it to help with performance.

The game should be removing the files on exit. If it's not, it's a bug.

Shows why I'm not noticing this duplication. That being said my performance is great and has only improving since the latest experimental updates. But now my hubby is looking into getting an SSD so....yay I guess. Lol.

I honestly forgot who it was that said it, but turns out it really is "Developer says that's intended" anyways. So somebody not noticing it happen was a moot point.

[grogez]

Get a ramdrive. Make a junction point with the ramdrive as target.

[Zemecon]

Oh great. Another smear campaign ( 9_9)

[ImHelping]

Originally posted by Salinité:

Oh great. Another smear campaign ( 9_9)

Wouldn't a smear campaign be saying lies? Turns out this is an actual thing that is happening. Save files are well known to reach 1-2 gigs in size. And here we are, with the entire 1-2 gigs being copy/pasted into a TempSave folder when you load them.

I'd have to be making that up for it to be a smear campaign. Not having it confirmed by the devs "Yup, that sure is what we make it do."

Please don't just swing by to do nothing but call legitimate technical questions and concerns trolling. It contributes nothing, and only serves to distract from real discussion. I'm not the only one surprised by this.

Originally posted by grogez:

Get a ramdrive. Make a junction point with the ramdrive as target.

Maybe if that were part of the reccomended requiremens, buying extra hardware on top of more than beating the listed Ram requiremends as a workaround would sound closer to reasonable.

[grogez]

A ramdrive is software not hardware.