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Robert Kosten has World of Guns: Gun Disassembly

Jan 31, 2021 @ 4:07am

Requests for G11 and L115A3/AWM cannot be fulfilled

Hi everyone,

I recently requested two models which, I am sure, are of interest to others as well, namely the "Kraut Space Magic" G11 and everyone's favourite CS sniper, the AWM. Regrettably Noble Empire had to turn both down (for what is probably the umpteenth time), because reference material for both is scarce. I am reaching out to the community here, maybe one of us has connections, reference material, or access to one of those guns and could help out? If we make a concerted effort it must be possible to get enough data, no?

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Showing 1-13 of 13 comments

Robert Kosten has World of Guns: Gun Disassembly

Feb 7, 2021 @ 12:32am

Really noone?

White Atheist Feb 9, 2021 @ 11:50am

The developers do not have enough references to create these models. I sent them the G11 manual years ago, but I will share it with WOG players. Die G11 Story book by Wolfgang Seel does not have enough information as well. I think it is possible to find German patents and armorer manuals for the G11.

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AlJydgcO60x4gRIhEimCQGNfyzBk?e=Xkz7Hs

And here are more manuals and brochures:

http://hk-manuals.com/

http://s3.amazonaws.com/hk-manuals/files/Military/G11/G11_Technical_Data.pdf

http://s3.amazonaws.com/hk-manuals/files/Military/G11/The_Development_Status_of_the_HK_G11_Rifle_with_Caseless_Ammunition.pdf

The developers should make a post on their website/Steam/social media websites or a YouTube video that asks people to help them with specific models, then ask volunteers to translate it to other languages, and then upload translated versions.

They also need help with the Steyr-Solothurn S18-1000 (or the S18-1100) anti-tank rifle. The S18-1100 was designated as "Panzerabwehrbüchse 785 (holländisch)" or "Pz B 785 (h)" by the Germans. Both rifles were designated as "geweer tp S 18-1000" and "geweer tp S 18-1100" by the Dutch. It seems that the S18-1000 was designated as "Carabina S" and "Fu ci le anticarro S" or "Fu ci le controcarro S" by the Italians. The S18-1000 was designated as "20 mm pansarvärnskanon m/39" or "20 mm pvkan m/39" by the Swedes.

I am not sure if this link will help: http://www.regioesercito.it/armi/armi_portatili/f u c_soloth.htm (there should not be spaces)

The word "fu ci le" should be without spaces.

And here are some Italian manuals (with horrible watermarks, unfortunately): http://www.1gm.it/cd-italia-armamenti-leggeri.html

If anyone is interested, I updated references for the Mauser Schnellfeuer-Pistole, the Steyr-Solothurn MP34(ö), and the Glock 18.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/262410/discussions/0/4227150602798737169/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/262410/discussions/0/2799503175296365246/

Thanks for the award, even though I don't deserve it.

Last edited by White Atheist; Mar 15, 2021 @ 11:36pm

-=NE=- [developer] Mar 11, 2021 @ 7:42am

G11 is a clock mechanism ))) we realy should have access to the real one for several days to make it ))

Robert Kosten has World of Guns: Gun Disassembly

Mar 18, 2021 @ 9:34am

That's not going to be easy... I know at least one military museum here in Germany that has one, but I don't have any connections I can use :/

76561198034531618 has World of Guns: Gun Disassembly

(Banned) Mar 18, 2021 @ 4:51pm

I only just saw this thread having suggested the G11 and L96A1 myself the other day.
It's really cool to know it's being looked into, since the unusual reloading with a clock mechanism makes me particularly curious about the G11's construction. But it's pretty hard to get your hands on one, since they never really saw mass production. I believe there are several museum pieces in Germany and Austria though. I'm not sure that you could borrow them, and I guess visiting would be a ridiculous expense, but I think they would probably be willing to send detailed footage of all the parts.

Last edited by 76561198034531618; Mar 18, 2021 @ 5:00pm

White Atheist Mar 19, 2021 @ 3:45am

Here are more links:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4078327A

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4024792A

https://patents.google.com/patent/US3997994A

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4152857A

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4348941A

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4587756A

https://armourersbench.com/2017/11/19/an-introduction-to-the-heckler-koch-g11/

https://armourersbench.com/2018/11/23/stripping-the-hk-g11/

https://www.smallarmsreview.com/archive/detail.arc.entry.cfm?arcid=1019

https://www.smallarmsreview.com/archive/detail.arc.entry.cfm?arcid=2698

https://www.smallarmsreview.com/archive/detail.arc.entry.cfm?arcid=7360

To download manuals from smallarmsreview.com, click the "Download" button, then click the "Free" button.

According to armourersbench.com, the Dutch Military Museum has one rifle.
https://www.nmm.nl/en/

Last edited by White Atheist; Mar 29, 2021 @ 1:09pm

Jono

Jun 24, 2024 @ 11:20pm

Originally posted by White Atheist:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/hk-manuals/files/Military/G11/G11_Technical_Data.pdf

That's an interesting document. Do we have any idea how accurate its claims are? I'd always heard that the G11 and other caseless firearms weren't field-ready because of the cookoff risk. But that manual says there isn't a significant cookoff risk due to a high ignition temperature. Obviously any for-profit company has some incentive to massage the truth in marketing material, but I can't see a company like HK risking its name over something like "the ammo blows up spontaneously if it's hot outside."

White Atheist Jun 25, 2024 @ 1:02pm

Originally posted by Jono:
That's an interesting document. Do we have any idea how accurate its claims are? I'd always heard that the G11 and other caseless firearms weren't field-ready because of the cookoff risk. But that manual says there isn't a significant cookoff risk due to a high ignition temperature. Obviously any for-profit company has some incentive to massage the truth in marketing material, but I can't see a company like HK risking its name over something like "the ammo blows up spontaneously if it's hot outside."

Sorry. I'll be busy working on an art project soon. I'll try to provide more information about the G11 in July or August.

The German and the US Militaries should have documents that have information about G11 tests including endurance tests and malfunction tests. Aberdeen Proving Ground might help.
https://home.army.mil/apg

I still can't open the Small Arms Review website. Is it possible for other people to open it and download manuals from there?

White Atheist Aug 19, 2024 @ 4:40pm

It appears that Small Arms Review has broken links. Here are reuploaded manuals:
https://1drv.ms/b/c/2eadeb2cd108a4b9/ESaoPJR9SGRJo6blLOEioIwBS_EYh9bBcoYw44XFgWi9SQ?e=EAxb5S
https://1drv.ms/b/c/2eadeb2cd108a4b9/Ee8xk2xihgBEqtmOm2I0UWYBkvch16ZSkbim8ziuScOfKQ?e=hycr7Z
https://1drv.ms/b/c/2eadeb2cd108a4b9/EWuj0ZKNFuBNjydxvbpRnysBQW5oTOBmNqw5GnNZbQyQ0w?e=x24E3d

https://1drv.ms/b/c/2eadeb2cd108a4b9/Ecmul2hWXg5IlGBnOHIDAacBH0pNLjSfflLR06zmkd97nQ?e=6ZdUi3
The page 35 (of the manual itself) says that the field experiment "achieved safe minimum cook-off rate of 150 rounds (at 60 RPM) in sustained and burst fire modes." And the page 48 about the LMG11 says "no cook-off after 300 rounds sustained fire."

According to the page 74 (of the book itself), the cook-off temperature of the 4.7×21 mm DE 11 prototype cartridge with the high ignition temperature propellant is 270° Celsius (518° Fahrenheit; if you fire the G11 with this temperature of the chamber for 40 seconds).
https://1drv.ms/u/c/784ceb0e07767252/EVJydgcO60wggHjpAgAAAAABn2RV7iSg4T8gdggKVPQwSg?e=Z8F9QI

Scroll down to "G11".
https://web.archive.org/web/20141227051949/http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=11:rare-prototypes&Itemid=5&layout=default
http://pewpewpew.work/german/hk/HK.html

https://patents.google.com/patent/DE3834925A1/en
https://patents.google.com/patent/DE3834925A1/
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/006365064/publication/DE3834925A1?q=pn%3DDE3834925A1

Google Translate has errors. "Dadurch liegt die Entzündungstemperatur um rund 100° Celsius höher" actually means "thus the ignition temperature lies (or is located) around 100° Celsius higher." The Soldat und Technik magazine (the 12th issue of 1987, pages 750 and 751) should have more information. And I'll try to provide more information about the G11 in the future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoTU-X0qbnQ

Jono

Aug 31, 2024 @ 1:21pm

So it looks like those are significantly better metrics than the M4 and the M16, right? The Army's official online magazine gives the M4 and the M16 max continuous rounds of 140 and 150 respectively, and recommended RoF of only 12-15 RPM. The M4A1 has the same RPM, but a higher max continuous rounds at 180.

#10

White Atheist Sep 2, 2024 @ 2:57am

Originally posted by Jono:
So it looks like those are significantly better metrics than the M4 and the M16, right? The Army's official online magazine gives the M4 and the M16 max continuous rounds of 140 and 150 respectively, and recommended RoF of only 12-15 RPM. The M4A1 has the same RPM, but a higher max continuous rounds at 180.

I have just read the article. I think only the US Military can help with more information about cook-offs of these weapons.
https://www.psmagazine.army.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/3389878/m4-and-m16-series-rifles-only-you-can-avoid-a-cook-off/

#11

Jono

Sep 4, 2024 @ 5:40pm

I wish gun journalism had a Jason Schreier type of investigative journalist. It really feels like there's more to the story of why the G11 wasn't adopted than we've been led to believe.

#12

White Atheist Oct 4, 2024 @ 6:31am

Originally posted by Jono:
I wish gun journalism had a Jason Schreier type of investigative journalist. It really feels like there's more to the story of why the G11 wasn't adopted than we've been led to believe.