HoK Does NOT become sheogorath, certainly not the sheo we see in tesv

[Jinx]

Replaying the shivering isles and it's become impossible for me to read it as the HoK becoming the new sheo, it feels very clear that the player "merely" mantles Sheo's post while jygg is sane, wards off the greymarch, and holds the seat until Sheo returns to his senses.

To take the role we have to assume symbols of office such as Sheo's staff, which we get from artefacts of Sheo's realm (which is a manifestation of its prince) We don't get the power to manifest Sheo's influence, we draw on the influence already manifested.

Sheo directly says we won't be keeping his throne, just keeping it warm until he gets back.

If we weren't an avatar of Lorkhan we'd probably end up like haskill after all is said and done, but as our soul is beyond the reach of even a daedric prince that can't happen.

[Kathrynerius]

See, the main thing you missed is that we freed Jyggalag at the end of the Shivering Isles because we mantled Sheogorath. He is no longer cursed to become Sheogorath at the end of the Greymarch because we are now Sheogorath.

"His defeat, however, released Jyggalag from his curse. Jyggalag, again free to wander Oblivion in his true form, disclosed his story to the Champion and named them the new Prince of Madness before departing."

"This development came none too soon, for the Forces of Order were already breaching the walls of Sheogorath's Palace. Before long, Jyggalag himself appeared and slew the remaining guards, leaving only the new Madgod standing between him and the end of another Greymarch. The Prince of Order fought hard, but was unable to best the Hero. Ultimately, Jyggalag yielded, conceding the Shivering Isles, and congratulating the Hero on breaking the cycle of the Greymarch and on becoming the new Prince of Madness. The Prince of Order then took his leave, returning to roam Oblivion once more. Dyus presumed he may have sought revenge on those who cursed him, or pursued loftier goals, perhaps never to return to the Shivering Isles again. Regardless, Jyggalag will one day reassume his role as the Prince of Order, with unknown ramifications for the complicated and opaque balance of power within Oblivion."

[Demogorgon is my Pet]

Isnt Skyrim Sheogorat reference a loot of Oblivion Quest stuff? Like talking about the gates, Martin, Dagoth, THE DAM GRAY FOX?
I saw a Video about this a few days ago.

[DeadBoy]

Originally posted by Jinx:

Replaying the shivering isles and it's become impossible for me to read it as the HoK becoming the new sheo, it feels very clear that the player "merely" mantles Sheo's post while jygg is sane, wards off the greymarch, and holds the seat until Sheo returns to his senses.

To take the role we have to assume symbols of office such as Sheo's staff, which we get from artefacts of Sheo's realm (which is a manifestation of its prince) We don't get the power to manifest Sheo's influence, we draw on the influence already manifested.

Sheo directly says we won't be keeping his throne, just keeping it warm until he gets back.

If we weren't an avatar of Lorkhan we'd probably end up like haskill after all is said and done, but as our soul is beyond the reach of even a daedric prince that can't happen.

Putting aside the fact that we have word of god that it IS the Hero of Kvatch that becomes Sheogorath, and also Sheo's own dialogue during the Skyrim quest, there's also precedent for this(Mantling a God) happening.

Tiber Septim Mantled Lorkhan to become Talos. Mannimarco also became a god during the Warp in the West(though I'm unclear how exactly he did this since its been a while since I played Daggerfall, iirc it involved the Mantella, an artifact of not-inconsiderable power), and the Dragon Break resulted in ALL of those outcomes being canon. Back to Mantling, its one of the Walking Ways, #4 to be exact.

The Walking Ways are basically a path to godhood. All this aside, the Hero of Kvatch already had a great deal of power as one of the Prisoners, but that goes further into the deep lore of TES than is really feasible to discuss here(as do the Walking Ways, honestly), so I'll just leave it at that.

TLDR: Basically the Hero mimicked Sheogorath so well that with the throne being well unoccupied, the Godhead decided we ARE Sheogorath. But explaining the Godhead is tedious business, much easier when one is intoxicated. And I am not.

[lailaamell]

Originally posted by Jinx:

Replaying the shivering isles and it's become impossible for me to read it as the HoK becoming the new sheo, it feels very clear that the player "merely" mantles Sheo's post while jygg is sane, wards off the greymarch, and holds the seat until Sheo returns to his senses.

To take the role we have to assume symbols of office such as Sheo's staff, which we get from artefacts of Sheo's realm (which is a manifestation of its prince) We don't get the power to manifest Sheo's influence, we draw on the influence already manifested.

Sheo directly says we won't be keeping his throne, just keeping it warm until he gets back.

If we weren't an avatar of Lorkhan we'd probably end up like haskill after all is said and done, but as our soul is beyond the reach of even a daedric prince that can't happen.

We arent an avatar of lorkhan the diffrence oblivion has vs skyrim and morrowinf is we arent a special chosen one with inhuman powers we are an avrage person who happend to be st the right place we became sheograth for someone has to and we have all the power tied to it shivering island is canonicly the last part and jygglag was freed from his curse as he always wins every cycle if he loses greymarch is stopped

[EASY PETE]

Nope HoK is sheoy he talks about his experience briefly in es5 from es4

[Gregor Eisenhorn]

Sheogorath in Skyrim: "You know, I was there for that whole sordid affair. Marvelous times! Butterflies, blood, a Fox and severed head... Oh, and the cheese! To die for."



Butterflies: The room when entering the Shivering Isles in the Expansion.

Blood: Blood of the Daedra and Aedra from the portal quest Martin sends you on.

A Fox: The Gray Fox, leader of the Thieves Guild.

A severed head: The head of Mathieu Bellamont's mother, the Dark Brotherhood traitor.



HoK is Sheogorath by the time Skyrim happens. Sheogorath and Haskill basically tell the HoK that they'll slowly change to become what they need to become in order to fit the role.

[DrNewcenstein]

Originally posted by Gregor Eisenhorn:

Sheogorath in Skyrim: "You know, I was there for that whole sordid affair. Marvelous times! Butterflies, blood, a Fox and severed head... Oh, and the cheese! To die for."



Butterflies: The room when entering the Shivering Isles in the Expansion.

Blood: Blood of the Daedra and Aedra from the portal quest Martin sends you on.

A Fox: The Gray Fox, leader of the Thieves Guild.

A severed head: The head of Mathieu Bellamont's mother, the Dark Brotherhood traitor.



HoK is Sheogorath by the time Skyrim happens. Sheogorath and Haskill basically tell the HoK that they'll slowly change to become what they need to become in order to fit the role.

The cheese is a reference to people duplicating cheese wheels to watch them roll down steep hills. As well as the large variety of cheese options.

[Keltrain]

Originally posted by Kathrynerius:

See, the main thing you missed is that we freed Jyggalag at the end of the Shivering Isles because we mantled Sheogorath. He is no longer cursed to become Sheogorath at the end of the Greymarch because we are now Sheogorath.

"His defeat, however, released Jyggalag from his curse. Jyggalag, again free to wander Oblivion in his true form, disclosed his story to the Champion and named them the new Prince of Madness before departing."

"This development came none too soon, for the Forces of Order were already breaching the walls of Sheogorath's Palace. Before long, Jyggalag himself appeared and slew the remaining guards, leaving only the new Madgod standing between him and the end of another Greymarch. The Prince of Order fought hard, but was unable to best the Hero. Ultimately, Jyggalag yielded, conceding the Shivering Isles, and congratulating the Hero on breaking the cycle of the Greymarch and on becoming the new Prince of Madness. The Prince of Order then took his leave, returning to roam Oblivion once more. Dyus presumed he may have sought revenge on those who cursed him, or pursued loftier goals, perhaps never to return to the Shivering Isles again. Regardless, Jyggalag will one day reassume his role as the Prince of Order, with unknown ramifications for the complicated and opaque balance of power within Oblivion."

I agree with the theory that the Champion of Cyrodiil becomes Sheogorath. One thing that does perplex me though is why Jyggalag does not re-appear in Skyrim in any form.

[DrNewcenstein]

Originally posted by Keltrain:

I agree with the theory that the Champion of Cyrodiil becomes Sheogorath. One thing that does perplex me though is why Jyggalag does not re-appear in Skyrim in any form.

Why would he? He's outside the scope of the Daedric realm by that point.

[alex010300]

Originally posted by Keltrain:

Originally posted by Kathrynerius:

See, the main thing you missed is that we freed Jyggalag at the end of the Shivering Isles because we mantled Sheogorath. He is no longer cursed to become Sheogorath at the end of the Greymarch because we are now Sheogorath.

"His defeat, however, released Jyggalag from his curse. Jyggalag, again free to wander Oblivion in his true form, disclosed his story to the Champion and named them the new Prince of Madness before departing."

"This development came none too soon, for the Forces of Order were already breaching the walls of Sheogorath's Palace. Before long, Jyggalag himself appeared and slew the remaining guards, leaving only the new Madgod standing between him and the end of another Greymarch. The Prince of Order fought hard, but was unable to best the Hero. Ultimately, Jyggalag yielded, conceding the Shivering Isles, and congratulating the Hero on breaking the cycle of the Greymarch and on becoming the new Prince of Madness. The Prince of Order then took his leave, returning to roam Oblivion once more. Dyus presumed he may have sought revenge on those who cursed him, or pursued loftier goals, perhaps never to return to the Shivering Isles again. Regardless, Jyggalag will one day reassume his role as the Prince of Order, with unknown ramifications for the complicated and opaque balance of power within Oblivion."

I agree with the theory that the Champion of Cyrodiil becomes Sheogorath. One thing that does perplex me though is why Jyggalag does not re-appear in Skyrim in any form.

I get the feeling Jyggalag doesn't need to show up because despite being the prince of madness the HOK never did gave up on the Empire. Sheogorath is most probably the forgotten Hero from the Elder Scroll Card Game which means he helped the Empire won the Great war. I means in Skyrim he is helping an old Ex Emperor from the 3rd age to restore his Sanity instead of fooling around.

[lailaamell]

Jygglag doesnt show up for yeah he dont have any intrests in nirn he was cursed for he was beefing with the other princes

[Brother Skolas]

Originally posted by lailaamell:

Jygglag doesnt show up for yeah he dont have any intrests in nirn he was cursed for he was beefing with the other princes

might see him in the next game in like 30 years

[R3sistance]

This feels like something fuelled by some of those youtube channels that put out weird lore that makes no actual sense. Sheogorath gives enough information in TES V to confirm that he is 100% the hero of kvatch as he has personal memories that only the Hero of Kvatch would.

As for Mantling, that is a thing in TES with a specific meaning, to Mantle somebody is to become them, essentially you become indistinguishable from the original person so much that the universe can no longer differentiate between the two people.

As far as the Hero of Kvatch goes, they could well have just been a normal person, the only person that ever confirms that the Hero of Kvatch was chosen as the hero of destiny is the Emperor, past that, only Mankar Cameron ever refers to the hero of destiny and he has no idea if the PC is or is not the hero of destiny.

As time is something that appears in past, present and future in the elder scrolls (the in-game ones) and the emperor has the dragonblood in him (he is a dragonborn), he may have just seen future events unfold and in fact the hero of kvatch in fact never was a Hero of Destiny but just the one that sorts everything out in the future that the dragonblood was revealing that in the emperor's dreams.

[Jinx]

Originally posted by R3sistance:

This feels like something fuelled by some of those youtube channels that put out weird lore that makes no actual sense. Sheogorath gives enough information in TES V to confirm that he is 100% the hero of kvatch as he has personal memories that only the Hero of Kvatch would.

My main gripe with the HoK=Sheo read is that in SI it's explicitly ambiguous right the way through. At points sheo suggests that it's a temporary station while they're "Jyggin' out" and at the end of the MQ Jygg (the one with the best possible chance of giving a correct answer) expresses uncertainty about the position that the HoK has found themselves.

But people act like a few lines in tesV settle it 100% which is such a stretch it's insane.

Lemme break down the sole evidentiary line.

"You are the best Septim that's ever ruled. Well, except for that Martin fellow, but he turned into a dragon god, and that's hardly sporting... You know, I was there for that whole sordid affair. Marvelous time! Butterflies, blood, a Fox, a severed head... Oh, and the cheese! To die for"

So the first part about martin isn't ambiguous, sheo is definitely talking about the martin septim from oblivion's main quest.

What IS ambiguous is the rest of it. "I was there for that whole sordid affair" Yeah, the dragonfires were unlit, Sheo could easily manifest all over the place to mess around and observe. It does lend itself to the HoK=Sheo theory, but doesn't provide 100% evidence.

Then there's the straight BS
People assume that:
Butterflies = The door to the shivering isles.
a Fox = The Gray Fox from Thieves guild
a Severed Head = Mother's Head from Dark brotherhood
cheese! To die for = Cheese from sheo's basegame daedric quest

But these are all so vague that to suggest that they MUST be referencing these quests is nonsensical. Sheo mentions blood, surely that could only reference the fighter's guild! or maybe the arena? or possibly vampirism? or maybe the blood marks left in the chappels by the aurorans?

At any rate reading this quote as HoK=Sheo also requires HoK=Listener and Gray fox and the community is typically pretty unkeen on the idea of canonising the completion of all quest lines by a single hero. Especially as this implies that the HoK is canonically the CoC and GF and Listener and Sheo, a pretty strange combination of morality all things considered. One would assume a canon CoC to be perhaps also the Crusader, Fighters Guildmaster/archmage. But the Listener? The Gray fox? It's just not a good fit.

[R3sistance]

Originally posted by Jinx:

What IS ambiguous is the rest of it. "I was there for that whole sordid affair" Yeah, the dragonfires were unlit, Sheo could easily manifest all over the place to mess around and observe. It does lend itself to the HoK=Sheo theory, but doesn't provide 100% evidence.

Then there's the straight BS
People assume that:
Butterflies = The door to the shivering isles.
a Fox = The Gray Fox from Thieves guild
a Severed Head = Mother's Head from Dark brotherhood
cheese! To die for = Cheese from sheo's basegame daedric quest

Observing from a far and being present are two different things, Sheogorath can't just manifest himself there, the whole reason that Mahrunes Dagon backed Mankar Cameron and the Mythic Dawn was to try and bring down the barrier around Mundus that specifically blocked the Daedric Princes from being able to free manifest on Nirn.

Sheogorath actually confirm this in Shivering Isles/Oblivion as he says that him sending an invitation did not violate mundas (he didn't go to Nirn, he opened a door from Nirn to the Shivering Isles and it's the choice of people on Nirn if they accept said invitation). As such we already know it was impossible for the Sheogorath(Jyggulag) at the time to have been at the Temple of the One during Mehrunes Dagon's invasion and in fact there were only three people present, which were Martin, the HoK and Mehrunes Dagon. As Martin is dead/missing and Mehrunes Dagon is Mehrunes Dagon, the only person left that Sheogorath could be referring too is the HoK.

And yes, those other things referenced might be "assumptions" but he is talking about specific events around the oblivion crisis and thus these are the most logical conclusions. There will always be blood in the arena and so such an observation would be meaningless, such as seeing butterflies in a meadow, he is referring rather to the events that the HoK witnessed.

As for it being one person, there is a possibility that the HoK was not one person but an amalgamation of different people created by a Dragon Break, such as how Talos is an Amalgamation of different people or on the opposite side, how Mannimarco became the god of necromancy and also separately how mannimarco became the king of worms, in the case of one person becoming two different people due to a Dragon Break.