Why is luck so much harder to level than everything else?

[Agent Chieftain]

Can you even Max it out before hitting the level cap?

[Ommamar]

Originally posted by AG2590:

This is why the Thief birth sign still remains the best even in the remaster. I really wish they would've toned it down, but 30 extra points (10 speed, 10 Agi and 10 luck) is too much to not take.

I agree with you but I have seen videos where other players where dismissive of it. The view point being that any birth sign that raises stats is a waste as you will eventually be able to max all attributes using the leveling system. I can see that for the speed and agility as it would only take two levels of focusing on them to get the same boost. Luck would take a whopping ten levels to get the same boost the sign gives which for a luck based build is huge!

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by Khloros:

OR luck should only cost 2 attribute points to level up 1 point.

If you think about it this way, it becomes a chicken and egg problem. Do we get luck for cheaper because its only costs 4 attributes instead of 5, or do we pay more for luck because we are only left with 8 after instead of 10?

You are doing math with the numerators while they have different denominators. Normalize the problem by looking at the perspective of the game. Both games cost 1 third of a level up to raise 1 luck point. There is no ambiguity if you look at the problem that way.

Its the correct choice to make.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Khloros:

Its raised by the same percentage between the remaster and the original, the only difference is we get less attribute points per level up compared to the original. THATS the problem, we should be getting 15 points per level up, OR luck should only cost 2 attribute points to level up 1 point.

If we had 15 points luck would have costed 5.

It costs you a third of a level up. Its the same as the old system, leveling luck specifically has not been nerfed, its leveling in general that has been nerfed.

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by Ommamar:

Originally posted by AG2590:

This is why the Thief birth sign still remains the best even in the remaster. I really wish they would've toned it down, but 30 extra points (10 speed, 10 Agi and 10 luck) is too much to not take.

I agree with you but I have seen videos where other players where dismissive of it. The view point being that any birth sign that raises stats is a waste as you will eventually be able to max all attributes using the leveling system. I can see that for the speed and agility as it would only take two levels of focusing on them to get the same boost. Luck would take a whopping ten levels to get the same boost the sign gives which for a luck based build is huge!

Counter point: any birth sign you will either be able to re-create those effects, or you will be given an offset of penalties.

[Khloros]

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

Originally posted by Khloros:

OR luck should only cost 2 attribute points to level up 1 point.

If you think about it this way, it becomes a chicken and egg problem. Do we get luck for cheaper because its only costs 4 attributes instead of 5, or do we pay more for luck because we are only left with 8 after instead of 10?

Normalize the problem by looking at the perspective of the game. Both games cost 1 third of a level up to raise 1 luck point. There is no ambiguity if you look at the problem that way.

Its the correct choice to make.

It really does not there is no chicken and the egg situation here your just avoiding the fact that each level up in the OG gave us more points.

Thats not even up for deabte that just a fact. In OG oblivion we picked 3 attributes that would increase by 5 points, meaning if you picked 3 non luck skills you got 15 attribute points,
In Remaster if you pick 3 non luck attributes between all of them, you can only increase them a total of 12.

There is no normalization, there is not debate here, WE LITERALLY ARE GETTING LESS

[Khloros]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Originally posted by Khloros:

Its raised by the same percentage between the remaster and the original, the only difference is we get less attribute points per level up compared to the original. THATS the problem, we should be getting 15 points per level up, OR luck should only cost 2 attribute points to level up 1 point.

If we had 15 points luck would have costed 5.

It costs you a third of a level up. Its the same as the old system, leveling luck specifically has not been nerfed, its leveling in general that has been nerfed.

Which would be fine if it cost 5, thats not the issue.
The issue is, getting 12 attribute points per level, and luck costing 4, means if you are taking a level of luck each level, you are missing out on 2 attribute points that in the OG you would normally get.

Thats my point, leveling in general has been nerfed.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Khloros:

It really does not there is no chicken and the egg situation here your just avoiding the fact that each level up in the OG gave us more points.

Thats not even up for deabte that just a fact. In OG oblivion we picked 3 attributes that would increase by 5 points, meaning if you picked 3 non luck skills you got 15 attribute points,
In Remaster if you pick 3 non luck attributes between all of them, you can only increase them a total of 12.

There is no normalization, there is not debate here, WE LITERALLY ARE GETTING LESS

Yes but it has nothing to do with leveling luck specifically, leveling luck still costs you a third of a level up. Exactly the same as in Oblivion.

Its leveling in general that has been nerfed, not leveling luck.

[Dixon Sider]

At this point, we are talking about 2 different things. This post is about the luck stat and its difficulty to level it. You might want to make a post about the change from 15 to 12 if you want to dispute that.

[Khloros]

Luck being hard to level is just because its arguable the best stat in the game.

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by Khloros:

Luck being hard to level is just because its arguable the best stat in the game.

I agree. I made the assumption in OG Oblivion and Morrowind that luck was good solely on its difficulty to train.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Heck if we go with the OG versus Remastered perspective then its more efficient to level luck compared to normal attributes.

Since you "miss out on 2 points" compared to OG when leveling luck. But you "miss out on 3 points" when compared to OG when leveling other attributes.

[Dixon Sider]

It sounds like we are approaching the donkey door debate here lol.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem

[Hex: Onii-Chan]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Originally posted by Hex: Onii-Chan:

I don't mean to sound rude, but do you have some tangible proof of that, or are you just convinced of it? Because everything that I can find online is that it used to boost skills by 20% of it's value above 50 as well as giving better luck during arena bets. And now it doesn't do the skill part, so it effectivelly is useless.

I'm at 70 Luck and I don't notice any crazy loot at Lv11. Unless 3 gold in a sack of potatoes is the great payoff.

Assuming its the same as in OG oblivion then some of luck's effects seems to be deeper in the game engine (thus really hard to confirm or check), so it has always been a bit of a mysterious attribute.

But several scrips that deal with probability (surface level that people can check) do make use of the luck value (for example, it modifies how likely the Mehrunes Razor effect is to triggers).

That said, Luck does not (or at least did not in original Oblivion) impact the random loot you receive from containers or other leveled lists.

Also, where have you heard that luck no longer boosts skills? Because every source i read says it still does (but i have not confirmed it myself and it might just be copy pasted from the OG oblivion info).

Well, I get the part that it's mysterious, but forfeiting 4 attribute points per level shouldn't have a "mysterious" effect but a tangible one. The Razor is a good example, sure, but there are basically no chance-based weapons aside from it and the random-spell staff.

And also - again - what happens when I have a skill inevitably at 100? It's not like I need 120 Conjuration for some spell or 120 Lockpicking or 120 Block.

The wiki even says "Luck continues to provide a benefit if it goes over 100, up to a maximum value of 300. Theoretically, this would give each skill a bonus of 120; however, the only two skills that actually continue to affect gameplay over 100, namely Athletics and Acrobatics, are not affected by the Luck algorithm in any way."

The more I read about it, the more it's effectively:
- "Nah, bro, Luck is amazing, trust!"
- "Okay, but in which way?"
- "Woah, bro, way too many ways. Like... uh... Mehrunes Dagon's Razor! And uhhh... well, a lot of other stuff!!!"

So I'm asking again - what is its point? It can't boost skills past 100 to any effect, because the game engine only checks between 0 and 100 for all of them except Athletics / Acrobatics that aren't influenced by Luck, it doesn't affect drops and you can count on one hand how many items have chance-based effects.

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by Hex: Onii-Chan:

And also - again - what happens when I have a skill inevitably at 100? It's not like I need 120 Conjuration for some spell or 120 Lockpicking or 120 Block.

From what I recall, it will further reduce the cost of the spell. I could be wrong though, I dont have anything at 100 yet. But if so, that could be a great way to test the theory of luck raising skills past 100

[Hex: Onii-Chan]

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

Originally posted by Hex: Onii-Chan:

And also - again - what happens when I have a skill inevitably at 100? It's not like I need 120 Conjuration for some spell or 120 Lockpicking or 120 Block.

From what I recall, it will further reduce the cost of the spell. I could be wrong though, I dont have anything at 100 yet. But if so, that could be a great way to test the theory of luck raising skills past 100

From the UESP.net wiki: "Fortifying Luck past 100 continues to raise the modified skill values. However, the modified skill value is constrained to a range of 0 to 100 in the game's calculations. This modified value is not displayed in the Skills menu but is used for all game calculations, such as damage dealt with a weapon or the magic cost of casting a spell."

So no, it doesn't. So unless the Remaster changed it, the entire community Mandela-Effect'ed themselves into dogmatically believing that Luck must be the greatest thing since sliced bread, because it's expensive to level, while in actuality it does absolutely nothing save for like one weapon, arena bets and unmaxed skills.