A successor to first Dungeons proposal.

[Morsealworth]

I know you're still working on Dungeons II, but I have an idea for you and even a reference on how to do it better than first time (which was genius idea with some problems that were difficult to avoid in implementation).


Glossary for the proposal:
1. Adventurer - the dunveon delver in search for loot and fame. The more infamous the dungeon is, the higher the level of adventurers who come down.
2. Infamy - the level of Dungeon's reknown.
3. Fame - adventurer's stat that changes his behavior and party size.
4. Hero - an Adventurer with a blessing of a divinity. Wields a divine equipment that cannot be used by anyone else but the Hero until hero's death. Can be disassembled for Mana afterwards or reconstructed into a Cursed weapon.

The idea is easy: Making a Dungeon for adventurers to enter and explore, just like in the first game.

But:
1. The monsters should respawn and move freely.
2. The monsters respawn would draw your mana automatically (respawn rate can be controlled).
3. The mana is gained from dead adventurer and the Dungeon Heart which allows trickle of mana dependent on the dungeon's level. There is no maximum Mana limit.
3.1. Mana gained depends on Hero's level.
3.2. You can throw Heroes to prison, but that serves not to gain Mana, but to opposite - to use Hero's and Dungeon Master's (your) magical forse to create undead. More Mana - better undead. Of course, level of Undead is limited by the abilty of the adventurer
4. The player shuld be able to design thaps and puzzles for heroes (Ok, puzzles are a stretch, just let them "investigate" the connections set by player with a timer based on heroes' stats and puzzle's complexity; not the real solution process). For the traps part, please consult Evil Genius (I'm sure you played this one, right?) and Mighty Quest for Epic Loot - an awesome reference, by the way, despite being F2P.
5. Dungeon should have level of Infamy independent of the Dungeon's level dependent on the mana and gold gained. The level of Infamy raised when the famous adventurer gets lost, or way less adventurer comes back from the dungeon and gossips with his collegues about losing all his equipment but getting out alive. The higher the reknown of a hero the higher the Infamy gained from his death (just like mana and level of the Undead to gain), but lesser chance of him talling anyone of being owned by the Dungeon and being spared. However, the chance of him coming back for more is higher with higher Fame level.
6. Fame level is independent from experience level and is increased by trophies from the Dungeon or from random events outside the Dungon.
7. Heroes have Retention stat that increases when they run out of potions/health and leave the Dungeon alive. Retention stat also increased when higher Fame adventurers are spared and decreases if the low-Fame adventurers are spared with no desires fulfilled (wealth and Fame desires).
8. There are two ways to increase wealth of the adventurer: Loot chests (cost Gold) and loot falling from monsters (the stuff popular in Japanese games - "magical cores" of monsters that can be sold for money outside of dungeon). The wealthier the adventurer, the more gold and better gear he has.
9. The Trophies fall only from rare monster variants (spawn reandomly/evolve from experienced monsters) and Bosses.
10. Bosses can only be summoned manually and their respawn/upgrade requires lots of Mana. Respawn, for example, costs nearly as much as the first summon, but allows to retain Monster's experience and gained skills.
10.1. Bosses can only be spawned within special Boss Rooms that must be spacious.
11. Dungeon can have several floors. Think Sims, but underground.
12. Dungeons can have Global Traits that increase their effect with each floor. Those can be psychological (like panic that makes adventurers fall for traps more often or leave the dungeon earlier, increasing Infamy or toxic pestilence miasma that makes heroes take damage slowly with stronger effect with each new floor).
13. Floors that contain Bosses (Boss floors) must contain exits on them as well as monsters called by the Bosses themselves. A special upgrade ofg the Boss allows it to take more floors under their control, but only until other Boss Floor. Bosses cannot spawn monsters on the floors below them.
14. Bosses can be equipped by Cursed Weapons that require Mana and Gold to create. Any Cursed Weapon can be either equipped by a high level adventurer (who has a chance to become your own Dark Champion if the weapon is stronger than the adventurer - randomly decided event weighted by stats or just use it against you) or be brought above ground as trophies, increasing Infamy greatly and getting the hero a lot of Gold and Fame. Of course, they are also used by the Bosses, making them stronger.
15. You have "god powers"-style abilities within your own Dungeon, including ability to spawn all kinds of stuff and using magic within the Dungeon. Higher the Infamy and Dungeon leve, the sronger the abilities (not just unlocking new powers, but increasing their strength too). Of course, since they use Mana, you have a dilemma of using powers or saving up to upgrade Dungeon.
16. Have you noticed the most important part? There is no "keep hero alive until satisfied" dilemma, which brought disaster to the Dungeons (combined with the static pentagrms mechanic). There is "let him become stronger or harvest now" dilemma which is way better for gameplay - just look at Evil Genius' weaken vs. kill vs. capture.
17. Dungeon coreis always at the lowest level.
18. You can create recreation floors to restore hero's stats, increase Retention, allow him to browses your Monster Shops (bringing you Gold - when the hero buys equipment brought by other heroes and stripped from them, Mana - when monster cores are sold here for gold, and Infamy - will all of these). You can also create alchemy zone on those floors that allows you to make and sell potions for money - the place is magical, after all, and you can grow magical plants here with ease. Of course, any fight on recreation floors is prohibited.
18.1. Of course, the type of transactions in shops can be switched on and off.
19. Gold can be used in several ways:
19.1. To spawn treasure chests that increase Wealth allure that increases with Infamy gained when the chests arte known to heroes. Of course, chests have to be refilled by Gold and Equipment.
19.2. To bribe adventurers to decrease Infamy of the Dungeon.0
19.3. To craft equipment and Cursed equipment (equipment+Mana).
19.4. To summon Dragons and other greedy bosses.
19.5. To recruit non-magical minions - agents that can leave the dungeon on various errands like smuggling the equipment to turn it to Gold, etc.
19.6. To maintain your dark cultists who also do your bidding on the higher level on Infamy, allowing to channel various rituals (WFTO cuts pretty close to what I mean, but not quite. Think more about Black & White's Worship and Forest miracle that is sustained b that channeling). They need to eat, right? Also requires agents to procure the supplies.
20. You don't need Gold to build your Dungeon. You have magic and it does the job faster and better.


Reference that made me think "Hell, I want a game like this" - https://oniichanyamete.wordpress.com/2015/04/16/jashin-average-8/
Yes, a Japanese Web Novel. Why not? It's a very good reference, as it answers a lot of the problems in your original innovation.

Game references:
1. Your very own Dungeons. It was mostly awesome.
2. Evil Genius. It has minions, tagging and traps. In fact, it can be used even more than your own original game. Also, stats.
3. Sims. Nothing else allows you to build several-stroy buildings with such customization. And the question isn't in the cost - it's in the fundamental design.
4. Mighty Quest for Epic Loot - it allows players to design their own one-floor dungeons. And their monsters move and they also have bosses and traps. Somewhat useful.

I hope you'll take your time reading that post and thinking about it. Kalypso is my favorite publisher exactly for your innovative side and I don't know who else can do this. Not will, but can.

[Morsealworth]

And yes, I'm aware that the studio doing it is RealmForge Studios. I just suspect that it's financial side, Kalypso, are the guys to think about giving the project a go.

You (And I mean not only Kalypso, but anyone) may even run a Kickstarter with the idea, as long as you plan to go with it. I won't mind and would be happy to be mentioned in credits (I don't ask for any royalties, but it would stroke my ego to have my name in something I may be proud of while requiring little to no effort from you).

No, I cannot run a Kickstarter myself - I have no connections to make a new studio. Schizophrenia is that kind of disability, I'm afraid.

Yes, I would back this Kickstarter no matter how meager my own income (disability pension way below living wage) is.

And yes, I'll keep answering the questions no one asked me in the first place. That's also the kind of disability schizophrenia is.

[Imi]

Thanks for sharing your ideas. Some of them clearly found its way into Dungeons 2 already ;). Like the freely moving monsters and the respawns, although in the form of the Defi-bri-mat / hospital bed. Or your "god powers", which are basically Dungeons 2's spells. Also, we do not want the "Absolute Evil" in Dungeons 2 to play care-taker of heroes. That was indeed one of the less fun things in Dungeons 1. Lessons learned! ;)

We also thought and diskussed a couple of other ideas similar to yours, especially how we could diverse the things that heroes do in your dungeon, i.e. reasons for them to leave without destroying your heart. "Looting X amount of gold" is certainly one idea we played around but haven't come to implement in a proper and fun way. Maybe in the future.. ;). I also like the idea with the "when he leaves your dungeon, he tells his mates about it" (which could give you an reason to let some heroes live..? Or a reason to extra-make sure nobody leaves alive..)

I am not so sure about some other points... multiple Levels? I think this would get graphically messy very quickly. (and from your 4 references, only Sims had multiple levels and personally, I always got confused there too and tried to stay on one ground. But maybe that's just me..)

About the shop.. we like the idea of you (as the evil being) running a shop, but I am not sure it should be in the dungeon? Why not open a shop on the surface just in front of your entrance, selling weapons to incoming heroes? (Guess where you got the weapons from..? harhar). Creates a nice struggle between "gaining money from selling good gear" vs "selling 'broken sword of wooden disaster' to have an easy life". But I am not sure the core gameplay premise of "Dungeons 2" is the correct base for this kind of game.

[Morsealworth]

Originally posted by Imi:

Thanks for sharing your ideas. Some of them clearly found its way into Dungeons 2 already ;). Like the freely moving monsters and the respawns, although in the form of the Defi-bri-mat / hospital bed. Or your "god powers", which are basically Dungeons 2's spells. Also, we do not want the "Absolute Evil" in Dungeons 2 to play care-taker of heroes. That was indeed one of the less fun things in Dungeons 1. Lessons learned! ;)

We also thought and diskussed a couple of other ideas similar to yours, especially how we could diverse the things that heroes do in your dungeon, i.e. reasons for them to leave without destroying your heart. "Looting X amount of gold" is certainly one idea we played around but haven't come to implement in a proper and fun way. Maybe in the future.. ;). I also like the idea with the "when he leaves your dungeon, he tells his mates about it" (which could give you an reason to let some heroes live..? Or a reason to extra-make sure nobody leaves alive..)

I am not so sure about some other points... multiple Levels? I think this would get graphically messy very quickly. (and from your 4 references, only Sims had multiple levels and personally, I always got confused there too and tried to stay on one ground. But maybe that's just me..)

About the shop.. we like the idea of you (as the evil being) running a shop, but I am not sure it should be in the dungeon? Why not open a shop on the surface just in front of your entrance, selling weapons to incoming heroes? (Guess where you got the weapons from..? harhar). Creates a nice struggle between "gaining money from selling good gear" vs "selling 'broken sword of wooden disaster' to have an easy life". But I am not sure the core gameplay premise of "Dungeons 2" is the correct base for this kind of game.

1. Exactly. I wholeheartedly agree about not taking care of Heroes. However, enticing them is still good as resources are gained by squeezing them dry, which was the good part of the mechanic. Oh, the joys.
2. Multiple levels would actually help you organize your own Dungeon as long as navigation is thought through enough. Remember those classic RPGs where each dungeon floor has a different theme and purpose? Something like that. And with that, each floor doesn't have to be really big nor it doesn't to conform to existing map. I really believe that it will let players give way to their own creativity. Especially with the part of "all resources come from heroes so there's no need for resource nodes restricting dungeon layout".
2.1. I also believe that multiple floors are the innovation that Dungeon master games need.
3. The reason the shop should be in the dungeon because everything is supposed to be in the Dungeon as the core idea is that your magic only works within the Dungeon where the magic flowing out of the Dungeon core rules (you can even make an enemy that can temporarily turn the dungeon room into ordinary cave by disrupting the magic, temporarily removing all the traps and other room objects). Of course, the Dungeon Entrance could be a special recreational zone, a meeting tavern of sorts. But that can be up to the player as there are no restrictions on placing those floors except cost efficiency.
4. You're right, I'm also not sure if Dungeons II are a good base for this. The reason I brought this to your attention is not the code, it's the design. You are the guys who understand the thing I wrote more than I do myself. Why do I think that? Because your designers have already struggled over two games of the genre with the first game coming pretty close to the stuff, you have the experience required.
5. The biggest problem, I think, is the customizability that's requred by this design. As in, there should be different themes of monsters as well as different kinds of bosses (spawned manually as opposed to ordinary spawns more similar to Evil Genius recruitment). That's quite a lot of content that you can possibly increase further with DLCs instead of current map-based DLCs model. That could also mean more replayability of new content and additional creativity introduced. But that's less of actual game design and more of money side, so whatever.
6. Yet again, if the requirement above is satisfied you'll be able to make a game about as addictive as Dwarf Fortress which is so good exactly because it's random and unrestrained.

Just on the side note: I personally think that the reason Dungeons II feel so shallow despite all the awesomeness in it is because everything in there is hand-crafted. I mean, it puts the player on rails despite the gtenre being the opposite of the rails - a Dungeon management game. There are several room types. the placement of which is restricted, there are objectives which are required to progress, the maps have pre-defined order of such progress... Negative reviews on top of the positive ones tell the rest.

The design I propose is the opposite of this flaw.

That said, I still wait for the undead faction DLC and will certainly buy it. The reason I criticized the Dungeons II is only because we're talking about the game designand I'm trying to be constructive, okay?

...I think I really have to check out that RollerCoaster Tycoon series to check it for references.

[Morsealworth]

Oh, almost forgot: the more famous heroes are, the deeper they try to delve compared to their own level. You know, the fame getting in the head and them becoming more careless because of higher self-esteem? I thonk that'd be interesting.

Also, there should be two reasons for adventurers going for Dungeon core:
1. Too high infamy and the bounty on your head as a Dungeon master (yes, you can have an customizable avatar to go and increase magic density in a particular spot of the Dungeon - to quicked the construction, for example, or to increase the density of Miasma, or even to increase the effect of the spells! High risk, high reward! Of course, Dungeon master doesn't walk - why bother when you can easily teleport anywhere within the Dungeon?). Completing quest yields Fame and money. Of course, receiveing them after succeeding makes no importance unless you create a body double and a sub-Core to make the adventurers "complete" the quest and decrease the Infamy to minimum and get a breather. More importantly, it gives the adventurers more Allure that is another stat that makes adventurers delve into the dungeon along with Retention (more allure - more initial retention and deeper the adventurer tries to go, getting more greedy/curious).
2. The adventurer being a Hero and being compelled to do so by divine forces. Then again, they are attracted only by big Infamy as they have even more heroic deeds to complete and they can't be bothered by every single little dungeon. Unless you have a cult that the gods see as a threat and attack you based on the cultists' Faith. Oh carp, I just added another resource in my idea. :( I guess it can just be merged with Infamy.

[Morsealworth]

Another idea: If a monster evolves, it can be arranged for a treansfer to a deeper floor.

[Sebastian Peril]

I must admit, as much as I am enjoying Dungeons II, I can't believe how far of a departure it is from the original. The two games are absolutely nothing alike and I do miss the "Theme Park" style of gameplay from the first one. The total lack of dungeon customization is pretty staggering in the second game considering it was pretty much the primary focus of the first.

[Morsealworth]

Oh, and I know I'm being very, very annoying and let alone knowing how to implement the stuff I'm saying, you don't even want to, but here's a little detail about spawning regular monsters that I've forgot.

Ahem.
1. Monsters spawn freely and randomly. Rate at which the mosters spawn as well as their maximum quntity and their level depends on the floor.
2. The characteristics above can be adjusted in the dungeon management window akin to Minions management screen in Evil Genius. The rate and strength of spawns influences the cost of each spawn.
3. Both heroes and monsters have stats and those stats define their behavior and abilities (hiidden doors can be only spotted with high Atttention const stat and Mental Fortitude dynamic stat not drained yet, for example). So monsters go to the recreational floors to restore their stats, too. But only when out of combat.
4. Monsters never, ever spawn in the rooms the adventurers are in. They will still spawn in any other rooms and will patrol the whole floor sometimes doing useful stuff like moving incapacitated heroes through the portal to prison (And I think not of conventional cage, but magical stasis prison, where heroes never wake up until you choose what to do to them) and moving their belongings through another portal to your Vault. The reason I call that the Vault and not the Treasury is because Treasury is reserved for rooms with treasure chests in them. Of course, such rooms have their own, special guard preferences and the doors become unlocked (as in, available for adventurers) only when all of the guardians are spawned and your workers fill the treasury.
5. Oh, and workers should be albe to be invisible from the adventurers except Heroes (who have Divine guidance and theus use Attention and Intelligence of their gods instead of their own. Except Hero Mages. Those guys are smarter than their own Gods) and should also be avle to use service portals that are also used to transport loot. Or, better yet, you (the developer) can make them only work on the last, service floor and make them transport loot to the service portals and let monsters do the job on the floors themselves (with risk of Treasure chests never being actually filled but leading to delicious situation where an adventurer killing the monster on errand gets a piece of equipment or a pouch of gold that was supposed to be in treasure chest giving your monsters additional random loot; And that would explain why the hell your average magical golem would have gold on it and not just its magical core). They would still work in post-boss treasuries that aren't supposed to have any guards there.

[Morsealworth]

Another idea: Restriction of the hero robbing: The part of inventory stolen from the hero may not exceed a set % of the hero's overall wealth (not necessarily restricted to said inventory). The precent stolen is set by the player and may be changed on different floors. The idea is that the totally broke hero won't be able to afford the equipment needed to enter the dungeon at all.
So the different levels of robbing amy affect retention.

Probably unneeded mechanic, however, as it overly complicates things.

Another mechanic is the cursed equipment being powered on miasma and subsequently getting bonus on all stats per floor down.

Also, as monsters consist of such miasma, the equipment may gain overcharge points that serve as XP. And when the equipment level gets pretty high compared to hero's level... I don't have to tell you the rest, DII is full of WarCraft III references (I anticipated that bridge destruction on the beginning of the scene where it happened).

[Morsealworth]

Originally posted by Imi:

Thanks for sharing your ideas. Some of them clearly found its way into Dungeons 2 already ;). Like the freely moving monsters and the respawns, although in the form of the Defi-bri-mat / hospital bed. Or your "god powers", which are basically Dungeons 2's spells. Also, we do not want the "Absolute Evil" in Dungeons 2 to play care-taker of heroes. That was indeed one of the less fun things in Dungeons 1. Lessons learned! ;)

We also thought and diskussed a couple of other ideas similar to yours, especially how we could diverse the things that heroes do in your dungeon, i.e. reasons for them to leave without destroying your heart. "Looting X amount of gold" is certainly one idea we played around but haven't come to implement in a proper and fun way. Maybe in the future.. ;). I also like the idea with the "when he leaves your dungeon, he tells his mates about it" (which could give you an reason to let some heroes live..? Or a reason to extra-make sure nobody leaves alive..)

I am not so sure about some other points... multiple Levels? I think this would get graphically messy very quickly. (and from your 4 references, only Sims had multiple levels and personally, I always got confused there too and tried to stay on one ground. But maybe that's just me..)

About the shop.. we like the idea of you (as the evil being) running a shop, but I am not sure it should be in the dungeon? Why not open a shop on the surface just in front of your entrance, selling weapons to incoming heroes? (Guess where you got the weapons from..? harhar). Creates a nice struggle between "gaining money from selling good gear" vs "selling 'broken sword of wooden disaster' to have an easy life". But I am not sure the core gameplay premise of "Dungeons 2" is the correct base for this kind of game.

I was playing Dungeons another day and remembered this idea. I hope you won't mind such a late reply.

1. Thanks for carefully reading all this clump of ideas loosely connected together. However, there are actually kinds of nuances'd like you note.
2. The problem of Dungeons 2 was, interestingly, not the "caretaking of heroes". It was the paradoxal situation where you needed to keep tem alive for a certain while killing while not letting them leave alive, The actual part that made it not fun is the comlplete access of the tools required for that: one-way tunnels (or at least entrances and exits being in different places) and traps. Or strong enough monsters, at least.
3. My idea completely removes that concern, as there's no need for that paradox: the heroes with enough level and bravery venture in higher level areas, while the weaker ones leave the dungeon if they're lucky enough to tell others of riches in that dungeon (while also unaware that monsters may spawn in higher quantities during their new visit).
4. My idea of respawn is quite different from defi-Bri-Mat. While that system is wonderful, my version of concept would be closer to your spider eggs trap: let the rom itself spawn monsters. If they die, no big deal. If they survive, they become stronger and there's more chance for them to keep survivng. Natural Selection, if you will.
5. I admit that different floors might've mbeen to ambitious. Sorry for that.
6. Loot should be not from the things you place for heroes, but from them robbing you. That would be more natural and keep hostility. Shop on the surface is another good idea, though.
6.1. I already told you about valuable monster cores, which, by the way, are also crystallised mana and used for enchantents, so there could be a possibility of a adventurer killing a strong monster having a really strong equipment at his next visit.
6.2. I imagine you would ask about chests next (sorry for using you as a source forimaginary friend to talk to). Well, I'll just tell you that chests could be replaced (or be a variation of) armory units that would hold loot got from dead adventurers or forged here, in the dungeon, for the sake of arming your humanoid monsters. For example, Undead in a special room that only spawns undead from the dead adventurers placed in it. Sometimes by the very adventurers themselves, if you understand what I mean.
7. Indeed, Dungeons 2 and 3 are not the correct premise for this particular kind of game (Dungeons 1 is, though). But, if this kind of game gets your interest or interest of someone else in your team and the proposal gets more polished, then it might be a base for other project. A spinoff, perhaps?
8. Yes, I know, I'm being too greedy and want too much. Sorry.