Class balance analysis: Occultist

[Remachinate]

As geepope seems to be taking a break before finishing this series of class threads, I figured I'd step in and start the one for the Occultist, as it's by far my favorite class. That's not to say I don't have some problems with it though, as we'll get into below.

Let's talk about his theme first. I love the visual and narrative design for the class--it's a natural fit for the setting, a student of the occult and the dark arts. Good class design means that his background should inform his abilities, and the devs have incorporated the following aspects to varying degrees:

1. Because he's familiar with eldritch horrors, he knows best how to attack them
   
2. He isn't in full control of his occult abilities, causing unpredictable results
   
3. Forbidden power comes at a cost, requiring sacrifices for results

All good stuff that helps shape his mechanics and defining his role. But given the above, I personally find it weird that the class is has been so shoehorned into a support role. I don't mind the idea that some builds can offer utility to his party, but if any back row character should be able to also play the role of a glass cannon, it would be the Occultist, with his reckless use of secret, powerful knowledge. However, he's currently in the weakest tier of base damage (excluding the Houndmaster that's clearly a work in progress), alongside the ♥♥, GR, and Jester. To some degree I'm okay with this, because his kit focuses on higher crit, causing a wider range of damage that's unpredictable, which is a subtle nod to point (2) above. However, the average damage of even the attack with the highest crit (Stab) doesn't even come close to the damage of the basic attack of the Crusader, who is supposed to be a defensive front-line class. A base damage buff is clearly necessary. However, I'd propose that such a buff be modest (+2 at level one), if the tradeoff were a reworking of the damage modifiers and crit bonuses of his skills across the board. So with that said, let's get into his kit:

Abilities:

Wyrd Reconstruction - One of the marquee skills for the class. On theme, driven by point (2) above, it's a great twist on a standard heal. On average it heals more than the Vestal's single target heal, even after the bleed when you factor in resistances. This is appropriate though, for the reward has to be greater to outweigh the risk of getting a net zero or even negative heal. It's solid by itself, and can be amazing when gamed with trinkets and quirks. Fits his lore, encourages synergy, interesting take on a staple ability--great design.

Sacrificial Stab - The straightforward single-target attack. The bonus to eldritch on this and other attacks clearly reflects point (1) above, and this plus the high crit bonus gives character to an otherwise standard attack. Solid if unamazing, but a needed staple. The one change I'd like to propose is letting this attack be usable from rank 4. Like the Plague Doctor, this is clearly a squishy class that ideally belongs all the way in the back, so why deny him his standard attack in that spot? It only contributes to the dearth of rank-4 characters as I discussed in the ♥♥ and Arbalest threads.

Abyssal Artillery - The other marquee ability for the class. I'm pretty sure there was a time that there was no damage reduction for this ability, possibly because it was so hard to use effectively. Before corpses, I would take to stacking speed on my Occultist so that he could get his AOE in before a teammate killed one enemy and caused rank 4 to be empty. Now that corpses keep back-rank enemies from moving forward, the Occultist has more time to get full value out of the attack (sometimes more than once per battle). The current damage reduction seems reasonable to reflect that, especially if base damage is buffed like I suggested. However, I think the crit should at match that of Stab, so that the crit-affected base damage is the same for all of his major attacks before damage modifiers. It doesn't even materially change the average damage--5% versus 10% crit bonus at level 0 is less than a 1-point difference in damage--but it keeps the Occultist's theme of unpredictable damage going. Otherwise, it's another solid ability, a strong opener that loses value over the length of a fight.

Daemon's Pull - It's nice that the Occultist gets a forced move attack to add to his utility. As I mentioned in a previous thread, though, adding a corpse clear effect takes a lot value out of the forced move. Furthermore, this skill has the opposite effect than what would be desired by the Occultist. I would think the class would want a push instead (Daemon's Push?)--it would make sense that after clearing the back ranks with Artillery, the Occultist would want to move the front enemies back there to provide new targets for Artillery. Finally, it makes no sense that this ability would have a larger damage penalty than the class' AOE. Because Artillery is the hardest AOE to keep using, I consider the two comparable effects such that the adjustment should be the same (-25%). Then up the crit bonus like with Artillery and you have another solid ability.

Hands from the Abyss - Here's where we start to run into problems. I get that this skill is intending to get at point (3) above, but there are multiple issues that keep it from being a compelling choice. First, being only usable from the first two ranks basically kills the skill on its own. If you have to choose between this skill or Wyrd *and* Artillery, it's never going to win. It just doesn't make sense to encourage a front-line Occultist; this should be usable from and targetable to all four ranks. Second, the effect is too weak to need a downside to balance it out--the Vestal and Man-at-Arms each get single-target stuns with the same damage reduction and another positive effect as opposed to the Occultist's torch loss. This attack needs to be buffed substantially to require a downside. If you made the attack 150% damage/10% crit plus a stun, then you'd have something exciting enough to need a sacrifice for balance. Finally, torch reduction is too minor of a loss to balance out an overpowered attack--bringing more torches to allow spamming of the ability is trivial, and darkness runs negate the issue entirely. I think you should go straight to self-inflicted stress; it makes sense thematically that engaging too closely with dark forces would chip away at one's sanity, and a 10-15 stress hit would give the player serious pause about when to use it. That's a substantial rework, but that's what it would take for me to consider replacing one of the previous four skills with this one on my bar.

Vulnerability Hex - I really don't like the idea of this class having a mark applicator without a way to utilize it himself. It feels like a forced and one-sided combo rather than a natural synergy. The Bounty Hunter and Arbalest already have enablers, and with the Houndmaster potentially getting one too, there's no reason to awkwardly force this mark onto this class' suite. If the Occultist is going to have an offensive debuff, it should be something he himself can use. Given his lack of DOTs and the new emphasis on PROT, I think a PROT debuff curse on the class would make a lot more sense. In addition, the damage reduction on curses is too weak currently to be worth the turn; I think the same modifier as the Daemon's/Artillery would be more appropriate.

Weakening Curse - This ability is nothing to write home about, but I think it's reasonable to give all classes a way to play defensively. Improve the damage modifier as with Hex and I could see bringing the two curses for certain boss fights.

Camping Skills:

Abandon Hope - Kind of narrow before, since you'd have to count on the Occultist having higher stress than his companions and needing party equalization. However, if Hands is reworked like I suggested, I like the idea of intentionally using that ability liberally with the intent of using Dark Ritual at camp.

Dark Ritual - As I said in discussing Hands, torch reduction is not a scary downside. Instead, a self-damage drawback might be appropriate here; seems thematically appropriate that an Occultist would cut himself in a dark ritual to fuel his party's recovery. You'd have to bring the cost down though. If Triage says party heal is 15% for 4 respite, then 1 respite is worth a little less than 4%. If you make Dark Ritual self damage 10%/party heal 10%, 2 respite seems reasonable.

Dark Strength - I feel that this one is also overcosted--compare to Restring Crossbow and Clean Guns. Those two skills cost 1 more, but they also get accuracy and crit buffs. For Dark Strength to incur stress, it should either give the same acc and crit buffs, or only cost 1.

Unspeakable Commune - Seems reasonable for the cost, though speed doesn't really matter for the Occultist anymore. I'd rather take a crit buff.

Trinkets:

They're mostly terrible, save Sacrificial Cauldron, but I think itemization is a discussion better saved for when the classes are more solidified.

Builds:

As I see him, the Occultist has the flexibility to play healer, utility, or DPS, depending on his combination of skills. You can combine Wyrd with a mix of Daemon's/Hex/Curse to support the party with the needed debuff while still delivering DPS, or go on the offensive with Artillery/Stab/Hands for maximum damage. It may be a cliche that the devs are trying to get away from with DD, but I think the Occultist should play like the original D&D wizard, that depending on need, can prepare a suite of hard-hitting spells or a set of less offensive effects that are key for the dungeon.

Conclusion:

You've seen my suggestions sprinkled throughout, so there's no need for a separate section. I think the Occulist currently does a decent job as a designated healer that also contributes to the fight, but I feel he could be more competitive with other classes in that aspect, and tweaks to the utility half of his suite could help a lot in providing flexibility to his builds.

[Baywatch]

You shouldn't discount the effect trinkets can play on the balance of a class as a whole. Part of the reason the HWM and GR are where they are at the moment (in terms of balance) is a result of their class trinkets. Honestly, I think the Occultist has some of the best class trinkets in the game.

Weakening curse is great and his trinkets make it reliably land in champion dungeons. As everything else in the game at the moment, raw damage trumps it but, that's not a fault of the Occultist.

Overall, I think he's in a good spot now. I don't see a point in increasing his damage, he already has one of the best utility kits in the game.

[Lampros]

Baywatch a écrit :

Y
Weakening curse is great and his trinkets make it reliably land in champion dungeons. As everything else in the game at the moment, raw damage trumps it but, that's not a fault of the Occultist.

Overall, I think he's in a good spot now. I don't see a point in increasing his damage, he already has one of the best utility kits in the game.

I agree with Baywatch that the Weakening Curse is really good; in particular, in a non-DPS group, it's an essential tool - especially against monsters that hit really hard. In fact, I've used it to neuter some bosses in slow DPS groups.

I also agree that the Occultst is in good spot in general at the moment and certainly don't need a damage increase. Frankly, unless AoE heals are needed (which is almost never), I think the Occultist is clearly better than the Vestal in almost every scenario.

The only problem I see that might need to be addressed is to make "bad" heals a bit more forgiving at least in the lower levels. I know this game is RNG-based, but 0 heal heals - especially in consecutive heal attempts - is really problematic; so is the bleed chance at lower levels when bleed resistance is pretty low.

[algothi]

This was the one I was waiting for. The Occultist is also my favorite hero class, and I tend to bring one in as many runs as possible.

Wyrd Reconstruction - Love this ability. Nothing bad to say about it, even when it screws me.

Sacrificial Stab - Very versatile.. High crit, higher damage against Eldritch, usable in ranks 1-3 against targets 1-3. Unfortunately, many Eldritch types have PROT.

Abyssal Artillery - I use to love this ability, the damage was decent and the high crit chance meant that you would often OHK the backrow with crits. However now the back row targets you would want to use it on have PROT, so it usually takes 3 turns to kill. I have dropped it entirely.

Daemon's Pull - I avoided this entirely before, now it is always locked in. Decent Damage, Pull and Corpse clearing. Pulling the back line up to get killed by my Leper/Crusader is much more effective then trying to kill them with Abyssal Artillery.

Hands from the Abyss - I want to like it, but requiring the Occultist to be in Rank1-2 is a deal breaker for me. If I need a Rank1-2 attack, its always going to be Sacrificial Stab. If I could use it from Rank3, I would bring it along a lot more.

Vulnerability Hex - I use to always bring this, now I dont. Too little damage, and while Marking is powerful when you have another teammate to use it, I perfer the other Curse for damage mitigation.

Weakening Curse - I am using this a LOT more now. While the damage is not great by any measure its still more than VH's 0-1 range, and the damage reduction is really great for those big damage attackers (Swinetaur/Bone General)

Camping skill wise, I only use Dark Strength and Unspeakable Commune. Speed is still great for Occultists, especially if you are running Daemon's pull and want to get those Stress Hitters into a non-threatening position before they act. Dark Strength is nice for the obvious reasons and the cost is fair.

I always bring a Cursed Incense. The +30% debuff chance is amazing if you intend to use Weakening Curse to its fullest. Sacrificial Cauldron is good, but I feel like the Stun boost is wasted most of the time. I tend to employ a Move Amulet to aid in Daemons Pull.

[Remachinate]

Baywatch a écrit :

You shouldn't discount the effect trinkets can play on the balance of a class as a whole. Part of the reason the HWM and GR are where they are at the moment (in terms of balance) is a result of their class trinkets. Honestly, I think the Occultist has some of the best class trinkets in the game.

What trinkets are there that make the Grave Robber balanced with the other classes? In any case, is it good design to balance your classes based on the assumption of having certain items? Given that you rarely get the trinkets you want in the early and mid game, shouldn't you design the classes for that scenario first and then layer on trinket effects for where you want the classes to be in the endgame?

Baywatch a écrit :

Weakening curse is great and his trinkets make it reliably land in champion dungeons. As everything else in the game at the moment, raw damage trumps it but, that's not a fault of the Occultist.

Overall, I think he's in a good spot now. I don't see a point in increasing his damage, he already has one of the best utility kits in the game.

Lampros a écrit :

I agree with Baywatch that the Weakening Curse is really good; in particular, in a non-DPS group, it's an essential tool - especially against monsters that hit really hard. In fact, I've used it to neuter some bosses in slow DPS groups

I didn't elaborate in my original post because I've discussed it elsewhere, but my proposal to increase the damage to Daemon's/Hex/Curse has to do with the fundamental issue that any debuff or DOT faces a much bigger hurdle to be effective than a regular attack because it faces two hit checks. I can appreciate that Curse is aces against single, hard-hitting opponents, *if* it lands. And the thing is, that's a big "if". Because of the Occultist's low base damage, the damage reduction really hurts when the debuff gets resisted. When that happens, you feel really bad spending a turn doing 1-2 damage. All I'm proposing is that the reduction get adjusted such that those turns that land damage but still miss the debuff still feel like they have some effect. Doing 3-5 damage still feels like you're making an impact in a way that 1-2 doesn't.

[geepope]

Thanks for doing this. I've been going roughly in order of how much I personally use classes, and now that I'm down to the last couple I'm a lot less experienced in the ins and outs. I'm not going to duplicate your work, but a few points to add:

-I view damage-dealing as a secondary role for the Occultist. I'd like to see more offensive support for him but I don't think he needs to be a blaster mage out of the box--remember, he's one of the strongest healers in the game too. Damage should be a possible specialization but not built in. The Sacrificial Cauldron (+DMG, -heal) is a really well done trinket, for example, and I'd like to see more (and some specific +ranged DMG bonuses too.)
-Weakening Curse is problematic because it's not terribly useful in run of the mill battles, but with 4+ stacks you can get a tough enemy down to -100% damage, rendering them almost entirely harmless. Bosses and minibosses generally have good debuff resist but add some +debuff trinkets and you can completely shut down some tough enemies. In the end this might not be entirely unacceptable (as noted under MAA, a lot of threats will still kill you with stress and DOTs even if they can't do damage) but it's something that needs to be borne in mind when dealing with balance.
-Causing darkness is more of a flavor ability than an actual cost (note that the abilities he has that cause darkness are not actually any more powerful than similar abilities that other classes have), so I don't think it needs to be replaced. With his emphasis on crits, the Occultist already leans towards dark runs which makes great thematic sense. If anything I think it could stand to be reinforced--add another darkness-causing ability somewhere and give him a trinket or two that runs on darkness.

Other suggestions:
-Sacrificial Stab is fine as far as basic attacks go. I don't think it needs to be usable from the back--I'd rather see back row Occultists get other options to rely on. I do think it would be interesting if it had a weak bleed added, to create an incentive to not just stick the Occultist in the way back. It would also create a risk/reward mechanic for +bleed chance and distinguish stabbin' Occultists (who want +bleed for extra damage) from healin' Occultists (who want -bleed so they don’t kill their patients.)
-Hands from the Abyss should at least be a strong stun if it’s not going to be usable from the Occultist’s preferred positions. Better yet, make it an AOE stun (keeping a tiny bit of damage, as a bonus over other AOE stuns) as a reward for any Occultist crazy enough to stay in the front ranks, or an emergency panic button for when the party is shuffled.
-Daemon’s Pull is laughably weak. It has no reason to not be a full damage attack with the pull being pure gravy--full damage for the Occultist is still unimpressive, and as the party “mage” he deserves a way to do basic damage at range. Corpse clearing is mostly pointless and makes the ability unnecessarily complicated, although it’s a better fit here than on other corpse clearing abilities (at least Daemon’s Pull WANTS to bring stuff closer.)
-Weakening Curse is mediocre on its own but stacks to game-breaking levels. Consider making it a weaker debuff vs. all enemies, with lower damage--that would give offensively-oriented Occultists another AOE damage option with the right buffs.
-Alternately, keep it as is (or maybe even slightly bigger debuff), but make it remove debuffs and deal a large amount of bonus damage (e.g. +100%) when used against an enemy that already has debuffs on it--creates synergy with other debuff abilities and reinforces his role as The Debuff Guy in a unique way, while also giving him a new offensive option.

[algothi]

-Daemon’s Pull is laughably weak. It has no reason to not be a full damage attack with the pull being pure gravy--full damage for the Occultist is still unimpressive, and as the party “mage” he deserves a way to do basic damage at range. Corpse clearing is mostly pointless and makes the ability unnecessarily complicated, although it’s a better fit here than on other corpse clearing abilities (at least Daemon’s Pull WANTS to bring stuff closer.)

I see Daemon's Pull as a damage mitigation power, just like Weakening Curse. Its there to stop Cultist Witches, Hags, Crossbowmen, Rifflemen, Courtiers, and swine drummers from doing what they do best, and to make them easier for your DPS to kill by putting them front and center. The fact that its base damage is a step above Weakening Curse helps a bit, but thats clearly not its main function. I certainly would not be offended if the Devs upped its damage to -40 or -33 damage, however.

[Baywatch]

Remachinate a écrit :

What trinkets are there that make the Grave Robber balanced with the other classes? In any case, is it good design to balance your classes based on the assumption of having certain items? Given that you rarely get the trinkets you want in the early and mid game, shouldn't you design the classes for that scenario first and then layer on trinket effects for where you want the classes to be in the endgame?

That was my point, she doesn't have one.

And while I agree classes should be balanced straight out of the stage coach, you can't ignore that trinkets exsist and still balance a character. Particularly a character packing so much utility, at least not in the current state of the game. At the moment trinkets play a big role in late game scaling for a lot of classes and there isn't any way around that.

Discussing Weakening Curse is pointless without mentioning his trinket selection (one of them is green so it should be very easy to get before the skill starts to need it) since it's the difference between the debuff being terribly unreliable in champion runs and it consistantly taking effect every time the skill is used.

[geepope]

algothi a écrit :

I see Daemon's Pull as a damage mitigation power, just like Weakening Curse. Its there to stop Cultist Witches, Hags, Crossbowmen, Rifflemen, Courtiers, and swine drummers from doing what they do best, and to make them easier for your DPS to kill by putting them front and center. The fact that its base damage is a step above Weakening Curse helps a bit, but thats clearly not its main function. I certainly would not be offended if the Devs upped its damage to -40 or -33 damage, however.

Pulls still seem weak in comparison to stuns. Pulls offer a more permanent solution (although some melee enemies will shuffle themselves forward if they're displaced by backliners being pulled up front, undoing your work) but fights generally won't last long enough for that to be a big issue unless you have a very suboptimal party to begin with.

Moreover, pulls aren't really going to be really reliable without investment. Outside of overleveled scenarios you're typically looking at a 70-75% chance at landing a pull, roughly 65% after you figure in accuracy (assuming you're at max chance to hit), and a 1 in 3 chance of wasting your turn on a couple points of damage and no pull is pretty awful. The same is true of stuns, but stuns are much more broadly applicable, and if I'm going to invest in trinkets to boost my control capabilities I will pick +stun trinkets that can stop almost anything cold instead of +move trinkets that can only stop some attacks from some enemies.

[algothi]

Stuns are always better then pulls, never argued against that. However, the Occultists stun is pretty bad (mainly because of the rank1-2 requirement) and all the targets I mentioned above have really bad Move Resist, I dont see many resists.

A versatile team of Vestal, Occ, Hellion/HWM/other DPS, Leper/Crusader works really well with the pull.

Round 1 Occ pulls Rank3 enemy to front, Leper/Crusader 2row AoEs, killing the weaker backline target. DPS and Vestal have room to target weak enemies/targets of opportunity.

Round 2 Occ pulls rank4 enemy to spot 2, clearing all corpses brings rank 2 to front, Leper/Crusader 2row AoE again, DPS/Vestal Mop up or heal.

[geepope]

Most of them are actually just average move resist, which is enough that you're failing 25-30% of the time even if you hit. Not very good when the alternative is eating a crit quarrel to the face. A well-upgraded Occultist can trounce apprentice mobs but it gets harder and harder to outlevel enemies the further you get.

I know the Occultist's pull and stun do not currently compete with each other, but the Occultist's pull is competing with other classes' stuns. Controller is a primary role for him, if some average schmuck can do 3-5 damage + stun then he deserves to be able to do more damage than that on a pull (which is, as agreed, generally weaker--and note that a lot of high threat enemies you want to yank out of line are specifically weak to stuns but not pulls.)

[Remachinate]

Baywatch a écrit :

And while I agree classes should be balanced straight out of the stage coach, you can't ignore that trinkets exsist and still balance a character. Particularly a character packing so much utility, at least not in the current state of the game. At the moment trinkets play a big role in late game scaling for a lot of classes and there isn't any way around that.

Discussing Weakening Curse is pointless without mentioning his trinket selection (one of them is green so it should be very easy to get before the skill starts to need it) since it's the difference between the debuff being terribly unreliable in champion runs and it consistantly taking effect every time the skill is used.

I still think you're putting the cart before the horse. I don't think it's reasonable to say Weakening Curse is fine because even though it's weak in isolation, it can be made effective with the right trinket selection. You balance the trinkets around the abilities, not the abilities around the trinkets. To wit, Weakening Curse should offer enough damage that it's a worthwhile attack even when the debuff is resisted. If you then want to make a trinket that makes the debuff reliable, but would then cause the ability to be overpowered, then a damage penalty on the trinket could counteract that. But that's a decision that's made after the out-of-the-stagecoach balance and design pass is finalized.

geepope a écrit :

Bunch of stuff

Just some comments on your points:

• I'm not saying that the Occultist needs to hang with the Highwayman and Hellion in terms of damage, just that some buffs are needed just to get to a baseline. Don't forget that the companions in his damage range are ♥♥/GR/Jester, all classes that suffer from lack of damage output.
  
• Good point about stacking -DMG, I hadn't tested to see how abusive it can get. I guess the solution would either be to set a cap or reduce the amount per application. Either way, a damage increase would be further needed to compensate for the nerf.
  
• I get that torch darkening in Hands works well enough for flavor; I just feel there untapped design potential around differentiating the Occultist in suffering consequences for powerful abilities.
  
• I would love for Daemon's to have no damage reduction; the only problem is that it makes Stab completely redundant. I thought about Stab getting a bleed as a way of buffing it and creating tension between that and Wyrd, but in actuality, they don't impact each other that much. Base bleed change is on a by-skill basis, and the bleed resist for the targets is different. Not that it's not a still worthwhile change, it just doesn't add as much depth as one would think.

[Catgirl Maid]

Oh goody - the Occultist, I would jettison all vestal into the sun if I could get them more often.

While I understand vagually, why you assume that he should have much more offensive abilities you should consider that aside from his dagger's attack - literally none of the power he wields is his own.

It stands to reason - that he can control only the most pedestrian of Eldritch powers while remaing in control. Sure, there are probably occultist that seek to harness the greater Eldritch magicks, but after seeing what happened to the Ancestor, I'd reckon the more... greedy Occultist often perish or becoming cripplingly insane.

That of course doesn't mean he's a bad conjurer - after all of his Eldritch attacks involve him opening portals and allowing the tendrils of the beast to leak through momentarily. It also probably takes great force-of-will not to succumb to their influence either or at the very least, keeping them from spilling into the human world entirely.

But - having some experience with Occultist in a more... aggressive capacity without Wyrd has given me a few differences of opinions on his abilities.

Let's start from the bottom, hmm?

Wyrd Reconstruction - Wyrd is hands down my favorite heal in the game, which has led me to notice that there is kind of an interesting divide in the community between Vestal or Occultist being the best healer. Later in the game - Vestal heals for absolute chump change, a measily 7-8 heal unable to keep someone from just being dropped to DD over-and-over. Wyrd does over three times as much - just at an incredibly fair price, you can fail and even kill people. After all, the Eldritch creatures are fickle in their blessing, which is very flavorful. Overall, fortune favors the bold though, as getting that large green 27! is one of the most satisfying experiences in the game after fretting over whether or that hero on death's door's time was up.

Sacrificial Stab - You brought up some points here that I didn't agree with. First of all being that it needs to be used in Rank 4. In my opinion, Occultist belongs firmly in the 3 slot as heals and support - leaving the back row to other choices. The fact that he syngerizes well with Arbalest makes this more apparent in my mind as well - since she -always- is in rank 4. In fact, ♥♥'s version, Incision, can' be used in rank 4 as well. All-in-all Sacrificial Stab is an underrated terror in combat - it's natural 20% crit well making up for he's weak base attack.

Abyssal Artillery - As far as offensive skills goes - this is one I find myself using the least, yet keep on him as long as he's in rank 4. Overall, the damage isn't bad and makes a good finisher for weakened backline foes - but most of the time I'm slinging corpses and curses out when he's not healing. I used this much more previously, just with Daemon Pull's massive buff I prefer that instead.

Daemon's Pull - I firmly disagree with your statement about clearing corpses ruining the ability. With corpse clearing, this basically ensures the move ability never fails should there be any corpses on the field. Not to mention, this is literally the only corpse clearing ability that makes sense - as it's easy to imagine the creatures pulling the destroyed corpses back into the portal with them after they strike. In fact, I'd even say that it doesn't need a damage buff - there's no reason why the attack should be stronger, in fact, if it were none of his other offensive abilites would be worth much.

Hands From the Abyss - This is where my time playing offensive has given me a very, very different opinion. Sure, the reduced light can be disasterous should you be running Sun items, but this ability can be absolutely clutch when fighting in the dark. With this - you can afford to bring a vestal healer for low light splunking since you can use Hands from the Abyss to constantly cancel out her largest utility - Dazzling Light. This is also one of the skills that fits perfect with his item, Demon's Caludron - actually managing to make full use of it since a backline Occultist would never get a chance to use it. Also, I would never agree to take an attack no matter how strong you make it if it gave stress damage. Also - I'm very against giving him the ability for absurd burst DPS as well - there's already too many problems with the few characters that already can.

Vulnerability Hex - I have absolutely no idea what you're on about with this one. This is by far the best way to mark things in the entire game - the other alternative wasting a turn with your BH and Arablest to mark themselves. I'm very puzzled, because you seem to go on to say the damage makes it not worth the turn - exactly, so why not have a low damage hero plant the mark instead of losing anywhere between 20-40 damage with characters designed to strike them? This makes him by far the best team player support, enabling maximum DPS from both BH and Arbalest without sacrificing much on his own end. Its a win-win, no matter how you slice it - throwing it on high prot and 2x enemies turn one can make a party with BH + Arb make extremely short work of things.

Weakening Curse - Another skill regulated to the forward combatant position for me. Whereas the other low damage classes end up being dead weight in one-on-ones with huge, high prot enemies like the Swinetaur - Occultist can sling his weight around. Meaning he is more than capable of defanging even the most feared oppontent. In fact, by the end of the fight you'll be laughing at how bull rush is critting for 8 or less instead of closer to 40.

All-in-all, I think you're severely underesimating his trinkets and his own, offensive ability. You can reap the benefits of Sacrificial Cauldron without caring about the heal penalty and getting full reign out of Demon's debuff and stun buffs.

Basically, when he goes rank 2 for trips into the night I have him run with -

Sacrificial Stab, Weakening Curse, Hands from the Abyss, and Daemon's Pull - leaving him useful in every combat scenario imaginable.

Anyhow, that's just my two sense.

[geepope]

Remachinate a écrit :

• I would love for Daemon's to have no damage reduction; the only problem is that it makes Stab completely redundant. I thought about Stab getting a bleed as a way of buffing it and creating tension between that and Wyrd, but in actuality, they don't impact each other that much. Base bleed change is on a by-skill basis, and the bleed resist for the targets is different. Not that it's not a still worthwhile change, it just doesn't add as much depth as one would think.

Daemon's Pull is a different attack type from Stab and has different positioning and different targeting. Stab is markedly higher crit and has a bonus damage kicker vs Eldritch. Giving him another normal damage attack would not make it redundant.

[ZiN]

Hmm quite a few people say the Occultist is their favourite and i can see why, he's in my top 3 as well. Overall he's very solid, probably the best of the mid-tier heroes.
His camping skills and trinkets need a bit of reinforcement.
His SacStab also could be spiced up with something fun (not necessarily too strong, maybe a small heal, or crit/dmg buff, when it crits/kills as he "sacrificed" the target).
Also i'd like to see a few more eldritch backrow enemies.

I just skimmed through the thread, one thing i'd like to comment on:

geepope a écrit :

-Causing darkness is more of a flavor ability than an actual cost...

That depends on the situation and your groups' quirks/trinkets. If you have a couple heroes of light, lygophobes, photomaniacs and the like equipped with solar trinkets, getting over light-level thresholds can ruin your meticulously optimized group in no time.
Nevertheless, it fits the theme, and predestines the Occultist as an optimal dark-runner, so i like it.

[Lampros]

algothi a écrit :

Wyrd Reconstruction - Love this ability. Nothing bad to say about it, even when it screws me.

I still think the worst outcome should be made a bit gentler.

algothi a écrit :

Abyssal Artillery - I use to love this ability, the damage was decent and the high crit chance meant that you would often OHK the backrow with crits. However now the back row targets you would want to use it on have PROT, so it usually takes 3 turns to kill. I have dropped it entirely.

I almost always pair the Occultist with the Arbalest, so the Artillery is usually enough to finish the 4th row in conjunction with the Suppression Fire. In isolation I agree it's lacking, but in context I am not sure.

algothi a écrit :

Hands from the Abyss - I want to like it, but requiring the Occultist to be in Rank1-2 is a deal breaker for me. If I need a Rank1-2 attack, its always going to be Sacrificial Stab. If I could use it from Rank3, I would bring it along a lot more.

I totally agree; in general, I really dislike abilities on ranged units that require you to be in the front rank. I think these abilities - unless the lore doesn't warrant it - should be at least available from one of the back ranks. Or make them A LOT better so that it's worth it to be on the front row, even when all the other negatives are accounted for.