Implementing "true damage" ? REAL Resistances?

[Hij@ck3r]

When thinking about the PROT-values and the damage your heroes deal - and while watching a P&P-adventure where something similar happened:

Wouldnt it make sense and add tactical value for some heroes - if there would be abilities in the game, dealing "true damage" - ignoring any armor/PROT?

At least radiant damage and the occult damage of magic tentacles for example should definitely ignore any armor/PROT.


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Main problem might be though - i think until now PROT is GENERALLY blocking ANY incoming damage and cant "recognize" what damage is dealt. There are no diffrent damage-types at all till now or am i mistaken?

I mean that would be something, which would improve the whole sense and technique of any fight, since there "really" would be enemies with diffrent resistances. And not only enemies with lesser or higher chance being hit by something and theire PROT-value.

They might be in its core reasonable, but only resistances against diffrent KINDS of damage would do the real deal i think.
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What do you think?

[Rahnzan]

The game wants you to use blight and bleed. So just do that?

I mean this game kinda keeps a lockdown on blatant magic (tm) and disadvantage is pretty much the spirit of the game. Having an armor piercing attack would be off-putting unless it did so little damage that it's only a point-break on protected foes..

[Hij@ck3r]

Well of course the balancing would have to be adjusted to it. Simply implementing PROT-ignoring damage wouldnt do any real deal, of course.

I only thought, "real" diffrent damage-types would make the battle much more interesting and tactical. Blight and bleed are at the moment the very same damage like hitting with a sword. Only diffrence is the lower "instant"-damage to the price of DoT. That's all. And all the same.

Having high-armored foes in a game should come with a chance to counter that. Games with good-working rock-paper-scissors-mechanics got often one of the finest and most entertaining gameplays.
Up to now in Darkest Dungeon got only rocks. And more rocks. Big ones and small ones. But only rocks. Having more variation here would be a big piece of work, but would improve the allready quiet entertaining combat-system a huge lot i think.

Like the crusader-advantage vs. undead - why not deal with radiant "true" damage, ignoring the armor but doing no damage against "normal bandits" - cause why should it?
Dealing with weapons more damage against unarmored foes and lower against heavy armored - what is allready tried! to simulate with the PROT.
Dealing with blunt weapons more damage against skeletons, ignoring armor while shooting with a crossbow - what really should be armor-piercing ot cause ...well it does.
Dealing with daggers bonus-damage against "soft", fleshlike enemies, while doing kind of nothing against bones.
Having foes really vulnerable for blight and bleed BESIDES the simple chance to initiate it or not.
Stuff like that.

[Rahnzan]

They already have excessive variety in a bunch of MMOs and it doesn't help much. I want to be clear that this is only my opinion because I don't want to discourage you, but when you have a billion different damage types to worry about the importance of each one actually dwindles. Take any final fantasy game; With the literal hundreds of different creatures and 8 to 20 different damage types (I'm including magic to enforce my point) it's an exhaustive search to figure out what to use that it's better just to spam one thing. Okay this is a water bug, do I use ice? no this variety is kind of strong to ice, but hey good thing the game doesn't nerf everything else too hard into the ground or this game would be impossible to play (cough persona, cough). I'll just use sword!

This game already has Normal, Bleed, Blight, Stun, Knockback, a slew of Buffs and Debuffs that only effect the stats that have ever mattered in any game (which just so happen to be the only stats for this game) or certain creature types. It's refreshing. I can go into the ruins and I know that Bleed isn't going to be a thing here unless I run into a bandit. If I dive down into the warrens, I know that Plague doctors should be switched from offense to defense, because blight will be worthless. If I march into the weald, I'll trade a vestal for an occultist because one or two of his attacks buff against Eldrictch. If I dive into the ruins I want crusaders because they've got smash unholy. That's already 10 to 15 different attack variations. I would like to see Fire in here but do we really need more?

Darkest Dungeon has a nice effectiveness curve that new players can ignore but advanced players can take advantage of, but the damage types need to stay in a range the majority of players can actually keep track of. I know you're only suggesting one more, but I want to go back to the point that the spirit of this game is to tailor a group to a task.

When you go into the ruins, take heros who can manage the ruins. When you're fighting in an area that you know has a lot of Prot, bring a lot of Dot. The enjoyment should stem from outsmarting the game.

[Hij@ck3r]

Well said and you definitely got the point in what u say. I like the way, the game works and the fighting-stuff. The system of the Dot's, the direct dmg, the Prot etc. works quiet well, of course beside the one or the other balancing-thing, but things like that were adjusted and will be adjusted over time.

I only try to imagine, if there would be something more in the fighting-system then "pure change". Nearly Everything works after the system, how high my chance is and how high the change of the foe is. Of course - that is working quiet fine and im well aware of the fact, that i might only notice this kind of "flaw", this "one-sidededness" of the combat-system after playing the game...a 'few' hours.
And of course - as you said - it would be pointless to bring in dozens of rocks, papers, and scissors. I only imagine, that bringing to the one rock that is in the game - the current system - bringing one additional 'thing', another layer of the system, there would be a huge potential.

Of course it would have to be something practical, adding this new layer to the combat-system in a way that doesnt add an additional "difficulty". Ur absolutely right - the player, especially someone new to the game shouldnt be confronted with another fistfull of details, that influences the combat.
A new player might allready be some kind of overwhelmed with the dept of detail. I remember myself and several lets-players wandering the first hours in the Dungeons like fools and even after several hours you still recognize details, how you did something wrong or could do something more efficient, especially for fights. Some of these things are/were because of the lack of a tutorial (at the moment) of course but many things were like details you recognize, the more skilled u get in the game.

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=> i mean that's what would make it hard, to add something like aspects like True Dmg to the game. Or like sharp- and blunt-weapon-dmg or recognizing, that some enemies got not only a better chance to bleed, they are even more vulnerable to it, taking more damage.
It WOULDNt be an easy task, to implement that, without additionally confusing especially new people. But it would be definitely quiet well possible. You would simply have to show the new player in an order, piece for piece and in a simple, visual way: what can i do to my foes and what can i do with my characters-.
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At the moment - at the end - the only thing you really have to do in combat: reading percentage-numbers. Nothing else.

And that's where i see a good potential, a good change to make especially the combat more lively - without making it 'harder' or more difficult to understand.

Maybe i got somehow to my point^^