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Alternative for Vestal healer - Occultist, Arbalest, but they would need off-healers (or with characters with self heals) since no one is good as Vestal.
Alternative to Crusader stress heal - Jester (he is actually one of the best stress healers and buffer), Houndmaster (at early levels his stress heal kinda bad)
Alternative to Plague Doctor - for stun you have wide choises: Bounty Hunter, Occultist, Man at arms, hellion, abomination, Hellion, Houndmaster. For clearing dots - there is no one, there is 2 characters who has self dot clear Hellion and Graverober. For Dots - you also have wide choises- Jester, Houndmaster, Abomination, Hellion
Alternative for corpse clean - Occultist, Leper ( with their Daemon's pull, Purge ability)
Alternative for team buffs - Jester, Man at arms
Alternative to dps - Bounty Hunter, Hellion, Leper (vs frontline), Arbalest (but if you have characters like occultist or bounty hunter, hound master to mark for her OR stack all damage trinkets you have on her), Jester but as semi physical/bleed attacks vs bleedable enemies, Houndmaster (but either vs marked or bleedable enemies works best)
Additionally, I try to have at least one of each hero class "just in case" and I work to keep the consistent in levels.
Characters will have unique selections of quirks, that will make them stronger or weaker depending on the location. Some classes are stronger in some areas (or niche situations). Some classes are just stronger overall.
And some have synergies with other classes.
(For example, If I'm going to send an Occultist, I'm almost always going to send an Arbalest as well, her healing ability can compensate for the Occultist's inconsistent healing. If I'm going to send a Man-At-Arms, I almost always send a Hellion or a Highwayman as DPS).
The Antiquarian is tactically weaker than most others, but strategically she's very strong, send her along and have her open everything you decide to open.
After doing a bit of research I came to the conclusion that having a party consisting out of a Leper and Abomination (both providing self health and stress heals), with a Cultist (unreliable but potentially the best single target healing) and a Jester (for the best stress heals). They're relatively versatile so far, but it's just the first few levels which aren't really that challenging.
Would you argue that since there are many aspects a class can perform, you'd always need a class that can perform 1 or 2 of these roles?
Direct Damage Melee
Direct Damage Ranged
Damage Over Time
Direct Healing
Healing Over Time
Stress Healing
Stun
Mark Target
Detect Stealth
Disarm Traps
Clear All Corpses
(missing something?)
For example, Plague Doctor - the Queen of Stuns & Queen of Blight - with access to bleeds if you prefer (to capitalize on HWM), coupled with disease-cure, anti-DOT / DD healing, corpse-clear, and so much more. She's inarguably the most meta-hero regarding the vanilla roster, so having any heroes back her up will get you very far by sheer default.
Said backup comes from the Queen of Healing (Vestal) - a capable off-stunner with self-healing projection to cover gaps - alongside a Crusader, the Ultimate Generalist, capable of doing everything you could want from a whole team (wrapped into a single slot), but is primarily there to stress-heal for that comp, being the only one capable of it. His flexibility helps facilitate comps like "The Inverted Bunch", which is the Usual Suspects in reverse order - and my preferred way of playing those heroes (to reduce how obnoxiously powerful the PD is).
Highwayman is a flex pick - playable from most positions (against most positions) and providing two-way mobility, thus he can respond to shuffles, ambushes, and encounters like Shambler (along with Crusader's Lance) to help get everyone back on track, all while dealing respectable damage, anti-AoE ripostes, anti-PROT bleeds, and some useful camping skills.
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Despite all the good you can say about the team, it's pretty average - and most of the onus for replacing individual cogs would be to counter specific challenges. This is not a game where you are meant to build a one-note team and rigidly stick with it, even though you can. Rather, you are better served by picking the heroes, skills and compositions that are most suited to your chosen challenge (eg. zones, or bosses, or preset campaign moments).
Without churning alternatives, I will say the ability to carve serviceable teams out of dog poo is infinitely better than trying to sit on an "old reliable" 24/7, so never be afraid to dabble and experiment. Not only is it a great source of fun, but it's also a very practical skill, and as you get better at the game, you'll realize just how little is needed to keep most teams safe.
It's up to you how you play your SP games, but that is most definitely cheating. If your reason is 'boredom', then I don't see why making it infinitely easier will help - and it partly reduces the point of bettering your comps in the first place.
The game can be passed by any characters. The point is not what is better or worse, but what is at the moment of passing. Everyone ideally plays with the composition of the group that they like best, but in fact play the best that are available at the moment of the week.
I myself passed the game on speed 2 times. The first time it was (without breaking game mechanics) in 52 weeks, and when I used different vulnerabilities of the game (but not modifications to simplify) I passed in 24 weeks.
Personally, I don't like to use modifications that change any game mechanics because it breaks the whole meaning that the developers put into the game, but (each finds his way).
If we discuss the topic of what characters are best suited for a party, you always need to understand the boss we are talking about. For example, there is a boss "The Shrieker" and to kill her will be suitable for one squad, and for others another.
Most of the time I used a squad of "Flagellant, Plague Doctor, Vestal and any +1 because the other 3 characters were doing all the work", but here's the thing, as time went on I noticed that I wasn't playing them because they had the best results, but because I liked playing them that way and here's why I realized that.
1)I decided to go through the game without torches and at this point I realized how much some of the characters are not competitive in comparison to others. The first one who got into this squad let's call them "losers" was to my surprise Vestal. Anyone who tried to pass the game without modifications without torches will immediately notice how much the priority of heroes changes and the strategy of the game.
2)When I came back after passing "without torches" realized that the units that I used in that passage as good and in the company with torches.
What's my point? All I'm saying is, play the way you like. If you think a squad is the strongest, it will be. And it will be so for the reason that in this game there is no competition (if we are not talking about pvp mode). No one will tell you that "your squad sucks and mine is better" because that's just stupid. This is a single player game and there is no competition. Another thing if it's about "speedrun", but you haven't touched on this issue. That's my opinion.
Сейчас речь про последнюю сложность"blood moon" без модификаций которые как либо влияют на изменение баланса.
Игру можно пройти любыми персонажами. Суть не в том какие лучше или хуже, а какие есть на данный момент прохождения. Каждый в идеале играет таким составом группы которым им больше всего нравится, но по факту играют лучшими, что доступны на данный момент недели.
Я сам проходил игру на скорость 2 раза. Первый раз это был (без поломки игровых механик) за 52 недели, а когда я использовал разные уязвимости игры (но не модификации на упрощение) то прошел за 24 недели.
Лично мне не нравится использовать модификации которые меняют как либо игровую механику потому, что это ломает весь смысл который разработчики закладывали в игру, но (каждый др***т как он хочет).
Если обсуждать тему какие персонажи лучше всего подходят для пати то всегда нужно понимать про какого босса идёт речь. К примеру есть босс "The Shrieker" и для её убийство будет подходить один отряд, а для других другой.
Больше всего времени я использовал отряд из "Flagellant, Plague Doctor, Vestal и любой +1 потому, что остальные 3 персонажа выполняли всю работу", но вот какое дело, что со временем я заметил то, что я играю ими не потому, что они показывают лучший результат, а потому, что мне нравится ими так играть и вот почему я это понял.
1)Я решил пройти игру без факелов и в этот момент я понял насколько часть персонажей не конкурентоспособные в сравнении с другими. Первый кто попал в этот отряд назовём их "неудачниками" была на моё удивление Vestal. Любой кто пытался без модификаций пройти игру без факелов сразу это заметит насколько приоритет героев меняется и сама стратегия игры.
2)Когда я вернулся после прохождения "без факелов" понял, что отряды которые я использовал в том прохождении так же хороши и в компании с факелами.
Это я всё к чему? Да всё к тому, что играй как тебе нравится. Если считаешь какой либо отряд самым сильным то это будет так. И это будет так по той причине, что в этой игре нет конкуренции (если речь не про pvp режим). Никто тебе не скажет, что "твой отряд отстой, а мой лучше" потому, что это попросту глупо. Это одиночная игра и конкуренции тут нет. Другое дело если речь про "speedrun", но ты не затрагивал этот вопрос. Таково моё мнение.
Ещё и вдогонку добавлю, что иногда я себе ставил разные цели. К примеру пройти всю игру (Blood moon сложность) без смертей. Те кто проходил игру знают (СПОЙЛЕР), что последний босс убивают твоих двух персонажей из четырёх. Есть разные способы это обойти и один из них убить сердце с одного удара при помощи критической атаки. Лично мне этот вариант не подходил потому, что я не готов ставить всё на кон рассчитывая будет ли критически урон или нет. Я пошел по другому пути и взял в отряд двух персонажей. Один это оккультист и Houndmaster. Суть в том, что Houndmaster кидает защиту на оккультиста, а второй наносит урон своим кинжалом. В совокупности и ты получаешь 95% шанс уклонения (всегда есть 5% шанс того, что попадут), а если тебе не повезло то просто оккультистом восстанавливаешь всё здоровье себе или Houndmaster. Вот так я и закончил удачно это испытание для себя. Означает ли это, что лучше отряда чем эти 2е нет? Никак нет потому, что они были собраны сугубо под одну задачу и могут выполнить только её и всё!
Without straying too far from the original topic, I would like to briefly explore this tangent.
While I can acknowledge your perspective that, from an objective standpoint, it might be deemed as cheating since any form of modification, no matter how minimal, deviates from the original content, I argue that game balance itself is not akin to holy scripture.
What some consider well-balanced, others may not. This isn't from an objective standpoint but rather from a subjective one. The fine line between fun and challenging versus frustrating and tedious can easily be crossed, depending on an individual's opinion. We play games not to frustrate ourselves but to challenge ourselves within the confines of what each person perceives as enjoyable.
Games like X-Com 2, Gears Tactics, and Chaos Gate: Daemonhunters, to name a few, all feature classes with a limited selection of abilities. Given my limited time to play a video game, I've never appreciated being constrained in choosing abilities. I prefer having a wealth of options at my disposal, and I don't interpret this as making the game more boring; rather, it lowers the perceived subjective challenge.
Arb/Musk, HM, Bh, Occultist.
a good old mark team and while mark isn't the best. then entier team can make use of it somehow.
it lack's a real frontline tank, but if that bother's you you can always swap BH with MaA in exchange for slightly less power in mark's. but you have two guards, 2 stuns, powerful healing from Arb/musk and Occultist, powerful burst damage by marking with occultist, Or HM to overall increase damage if enemies are really prot heavy,
(yes I know the flaws of mark, but at the same time this is a game you don't need to be optimal and this is just about exploring options.)
And you have a party wide Stress heal with HM. Add ancestors scroll and they become a genuinly decent team stress healer.
Alternatly,
Arb/musk, Anti, MaA, and Hellion.
Arb and Anti to heal (with healing trinkets they can put out decent numbers)
Hellion and MaA to stun
arb and hellion deal out damage, (Hellion can deal out some serious dots.)
MaA to tank.
These are just a few idea's.
but nobody's gonna outheal vestal. Occultist and Flagellant can put out higher single target heal's conditionally (Occultist requires luck, Flag requires him to be at 40% hp or lower) But Vestal is the ONLY healer who has group heal. (well technically flag heal's himself and someone else but still).
now I prefer Occultist to vestal. (especially with an antiquarian, PD, or Arb/musk to back him up) as his stun, bonus damage towards Eldrich, debuff's and potent single target heals just makes him a really good and fun class. But Vestal's AoE heal is broken. and that's about it.
Making a shortcut and the need experiencing for convenience without fully understanding what it does to gameplay and game ballance.
Didn't really felt helping out after giving advices and then you immediately jumped for mod assists and then asked for even more advices.
Maybe you will turn it off once you get hang of it and learned few things. But I kinda doubt you will because how comfortable to have all skills available and notice how less effective and worse you might play without mod assist, which will tempt you to just switch back.
I appreciate your input, but I'd like to clarify that I wasn't seeking advice to enhance my gaming skills, as the default party was already working well for me. My inquiry was more about exploring suggestions for alternative party compositions. There's a notable distinction between the two.
While I respect your perspective on the game's difficulty, I personally don't feel that having all skills available severely diminishes the overall challenge, so let's agree to disagree on this matter. I prefer not to engage in a fruitless debate because, as I mentioned earlier, I play games for enjoyment rather than to showcase my intelligence to strangers.
This game doesn't hold a spot in my top 3, and probably not even in my top 10. I'm playing it out of curiosity, gathering ideas for my own game development project. It seems there are some assumptions being made about my playstyle and intentions based on a couple of posts. If I hadn't mentioned the mod I'm using, we would not be having this interaction.
I genuinely appreciated your initial response and suggestions. Have a nice life ;)
Nobody said anything about holy scripture, and yes, having access to all skills simultaneously is a blatantly obvious and egregious power spike that tremendously eases Darkest Dungeon.
Example: using Plague Doctor without having to choose between two powerful stuns, two powerful blights, burst/bleed, DOT healing, or target-buffs - nor the best position for that selection, or how it is impacted by shuffles or setups - because she has everything at once.
Translate that to all four heroes, and what is normally an 'average' team is flatly more powerful, thus, said mod dilutes choice and differentiation - because most of the comps people might suggest will not apply to someone who can access 12 extra abilities by default.
Perma-loss and limited carrying capacity aren't "Holy Scripture" either, and people are entitled to mod those too, but if you do, you are cheating the system. The game is the game, and once you start externally bending it to suit yourself, that's that.
As said, it's entirely up to you how you choose to play, but so long as you're using a mod like that, there's little reason to suggest comps, because the way you're playing isn't even close to baseline, and part of what makes many suggestions strong simply won't apply to you.
But assuming this is your first or soish playthrough? I'm kinda with rope here, Sure you can do whatever you want with your single player game. But I think Darkest dungeon is best played at least first without mods. (At least Anything that affects game balance. Skins, and speed up mods are perfectly fine.) So you can learn it at least somewhat. (You don't have to be good to beat the game)
Sure you don't think having access to all 7 skills at once significantly breaks the challenge, But IMO that's only because your new to the game. a lot of character's Significantly benefit from having all buttons available at once. Plague doctor doesn't need to chose which stun she want's to run or you don't need to chose between sacrificing front end blight for some bleed, , You don't need to choose between smite and battle heal for Crusader and you don't need to think about if you need his buff, Vestal... Ok Vestal only really runs 4 buttons regardless unless you put her up front for some spiciness, HWM usually you need to decide between wicked slice or open vain depending on your dungeon, Tracking shot is a niche opener but still can be affective, and So on.
And these are just choices you gotta make with the 4 hero's on the usual suspects.
much less the 13 other classes, even if you don't use them.
Honetly I think a part of why your finding it so easy to go with just "the usual suspects" is BECAUSE, they aren't limited. you don't need to think "Ok so I need these moves for this comp."
and while that's fine for later playthroughs I do think it kinda ruins the magic of a first playthrough. (And hell even I As a huge advocate for mods still occasionally crave a vanilla playthrough)
As mentioned earlier, I must convey my lack of enthusiasm for certain fundamental aspects of this game. The purported balance and meticulously crafted difficulty fail to capture my interest, primarily due to certain mechanics that I find rather bothersome. Many of these seem unnecessarily time-consuming, transforming the gameplay into a grind fest.
Furthermore, I still maintain my disagreement regarding the access to all skills constituting an egregious power spike, significantly easing the game. From my perspective, the primary source of difficulty in this game stems from the stress system. Everyone is entitled to play games in their preferred manner, even if it involves embracing a tedious masochistic playstyle.
Additionally, the assertion that my use of a mod enabling the utilization of seven skills instead of four somehow negates the necessity for a well-balanced alternative for the beginner party simply baffles me. Considering your line of reasoning, it appears that just because I have seven skills rather than the originally intended four (even though the UI was clearly designed to hold all seven), I can now concoct any potential combination and effortlessly steamroll through the game, which simply isn't true.
However, it's crucial to note that the game itself offers players three difficulty choices, doesn't it? Whether I opt to play the game on Radiant difficulty without mods or on Bloodmoon with a few mods is entirely my choice. It serves to inspire me in terms of my own game design. Just because you appreciate the game in its original state doesn't mean I have to share the same sentiment.
Having said that, perhaps we can return to the main topic. As I've addressed before, I prefer not to engage in a fruitless debate because I play games for enjoyment rather than to showcase my intelligence to strangers. On the other hand, we might as well just leave the topic entirely, as I've already lost interest.