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Hmm, I've never actually considered dropping Vestal. I don't run heal on Crusader so that might be problematic lol.
Oh I don't use HWM either. Just not a fan. Good ideas though. It seems I'm kind of shafted here as a consequence of my stubbornness.
I could conceivably run Breakthrough as an opener for Hellion but that seems equally wasteful. Most of the point to her being there is to open on backline supports transferring to massive bleed and stuns for ranks 1-2.
If only BH uppercut was a mobility skill.. Kind of like an R-yuken from streetfighter lol.
If you take his Stun / Lance / Heal / Soothe, then it won't matter where you place him or who you team him with -- he will always contribute to a fight (unless he's in R3/R4, his entire team is 100% healthy, his team is 100% stress-free, and every enemy except for R1 is dead, which leaves him stranded in the back rank with nothing to hit and nothing to do...) but if you're in that scenario, you've already won the fight anyway, so it's pretty moot.
Currently, lack of stress-healing and lack of positional flexibility is hurting you. While you certain can play HEL full-time in other ranks, she typically wants to live in R1. Meanwhile, an immobile VES and BH are present, with a mobile MAA smack between them, so all it takes is one bad shuffle or surprise to put some pressure on you.
I'm not saying Crusader is the answer, but again, when a hero can play full-time from anywhere and cover so many gaps, they go a long way towards making you feel like heroes are working with you, not against you.
BH has good damage and range (playing from up to R3, against up-to R3, excluding flash-bang and grabs), but aside from churning out that damage (and Uppercut), he's not adding much to that specific team. Even without him, you already hit R4 with Judgement and Iron Swan, and the rest of the team can reach R3 from prime positions, so it boils down to losing a stun, which is easily replaced.
If you really, really want to lean into Mark (which I generally don't recommend due to being unnecessary turn-usage most of the time), then you could swap MAA for Houndmaster - who can tackle stress-healing as an R2 stun-bot or R3/R4 projector, providing Mark for the BH, or vice versa. Conversely, you could replace the Bounty Hunter with someone like Crusader as a stress/health co-support, either as a front-rank stunbot or a back-rank projector, hitting R3 and R4 with lance to finish off what the Vestal and Hellion don't dunk by themselves.
I like healing with Occulist insead of Vestal. Maybe swap Hellion for Spearmaster Shiedlbreaker (the blight lady) and introduce dancing into the party.
Wrong game. DD2 forum is over here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1940340/discussions/0/
Personally, I'm not that fond of the Bounty Hunter, he's okay as a Stunner though.
he's crying about the game in every thread over there too, don't worry.
I'd just replace MaA with HWM in that comp. BH in rank 2 with Damage, Stun/Move skills and Caltrops, Hellion with crit trinkets to abuse caltrops. I use that team a lot and they kill most things before they become an issue (stygian/torchless)
MAA is in direct competition with the hellion, I think. You could maybe have him dance with the hellion, since they both have forward moving attacks. Hellion needs to be in front to do iron swan, though, right? Might be more annoying than useful.
I'd agree that the team is sub-par. Hellion and MAA both like to be in the front, so they directly compete and hinder each other. BH doesn't have any synergy with that team. BH groups well with himself, highwayman, houndmaster, arbalests, occultists, and grave robbers.
If I had to use that combination, I'd probably try to abuse movement skills as much as possible. MAA shield bash stun locks, BH hook and punch to move enemies into places where they can't function. Hellion would probably be in slot 2, just dealing auto attacks.
Huh?
Not really. You're just using turns on one target so a follow-up turn against them hits harder, in a game where most trash won't survive two regular hits, with fights winnable within 1-3 rounds at baseline damage without any mark involvement, or the usual stun abuse. Aside from busting certain larger units with one less hit, Mark is just okay. Just because a hero has mark-centric attack options doesn't mean lacking a mark is a problem.
But hey, back to the OP's comp, (and for those who swear by Mark), swapping in a Houndmaster alongside the Bounty Hunter is an option, as that way, you gain a self-sustained stress-healer with one of the best Marks in the game, or close-range stun-bot, who can slap any rank with Rush from 3/4 positions (backed by Judgement R4/R3, Iron Swan R4, IIBleed R3, Finish Him R3, and various other projection, so the far foes are well covered).
As a Main-Heal Musketeer enjoyer, if I gave a damn about Mark, I would chuck the Vestal in the bin and have an ARB/MUS healer occasionally marking or shooting marks for damage instead, but seeing as the team lacks a stress-healer, I still feel Houdmaster is the most complimentary. If you wanted to go all in, then something like ARB/MUS-HM-BH-HEL would work just fine, but at that point, I'd drop the HEL, too, personally.
Man-At-Arms is great, but unless you're crushing R3, you'd do better stunning foes with Rampart, in which case, you're pushing BH back, and then possibly HEL, who wants to live in R1 for her usual go-to buttons, preferably without self-debuffing herself via movement skills just to get there first. Highwayman is good, in that he can deshuffle in both directions, along with attacks for practically all ranges from everywhere, not really caring where you shuffle him (other than R1), and can also help ramp up the Bleeds (Caltrops, IIB/BO, Open Vein, etc).
There are many other options to make it work, but in most cases, you'd do well to replace at least one hero -- either BH (if you want a more mobile team), MAA (if you want to lean into Mark, Bleed, or add some more projection or stress-healing), or even Vestal (with heroes like Crusader, Arbalest/Musketeer, Occultist -- if you're ready to gamble -- even Plague Doctors or Antiquarians). If you feel uncomfortable without a VES blanket, then additional self-sustain or stacking co-support will take the edge off.
Ultimately, it depends on what you really, really want to keep from your original team.
Thanks for the heads up, I'll be sure to be ready for it if I drop by that forum.
Hmm.. yeah, I think that's good advice.
I tried two derivatives of that comp:
Vestal-Hellion-BH-MAA
Crusader-Vestal-BH-Hellion
Caltrops on BH was not great. Bleed scaling too low. My only success for R4 came by way of crits to other ranks which happened surprisingly often with BH at 42% crit. Had some pretty satisfying clean-ups with Breakthrough on Hellion.
Team faired pretty well but ended up with 32 stress on Vestal. Serviceable and basically impervious to shuffles. Good utility with MAA. Good camping skill coverage. But ultimately low endurance and weak to stress.
Hard to gauge the efficacy of team-2 as they were over-leveled with a Weald buff active. Stress not being an issue anymore. 2 Lances is okay, doesn't really shine in Weald though. Hellion free to do Hellion things. BH with insane on-hit felt really good here.
Need to experiment more with both teams. Can't say either team felt as efficient as my dedicated teams for Ruins/Cove, but I guess that is to be expected given my limited preferences.
Ruins/Cove = Blight works
Weald/Warren = Bleed works
Good observation. Truth be told I had not even factored that in. MAA made sense initially as a potential safety-net against Artillery/Fungal synergy. But equally good for that now you mention it.
My teams are almost always very quick and stun-heavy. Works pretty well having the initiative there as a preventative solution. Can't bet everything on RNG though.
I got away without MAA for a long-long time in my other runs. Quite possibly as a result of running mainly tanky champions with PROT/HP advantages. I go on to contradict myself in Cove with the use of GR, but with SPD and Dodge-stacking as a mitigating factor.
One thing is clear at this point; I really hate Warrens. That place is bad enough without the relentless pig-squealing lol.