Class Tier List - The Cove Edition

[redhookjohn]

So thanks to Xenos, and everyone who participated in the discussion in the thread "Worst class according to you?" I was lead to my own question I wanted to post for you all.

In Xeno's thread there was a good debate on what classes are underperforming. Which got me to thinking about Tier Lists. Typically you find these in fighting games like Street Fighter, but also in games like DOTA. But any game that has a large pool of character choice this methodology can be applied.

My question is this. What are the rankings of our current character classes?

Ranking them numerically highest to lowest isn't very useful as the gaps in power between say the 2nd and 3rd best might be larger than the gaps between 3rd and 4th. So let's break it down by tiers.

What classes do you all think constitute Tier A, or let's call this 'god tier.' They are the best around, and nothing in the world could bring them down. And then What classes constitute Tier B, and so on down the line to however many Tiers you all think is necessary.

After you do that, I have a follow-up question. Is the overall Tier List the same for each individual dungeon area. Meaning do any classes shift in power dependent on what dungeon you are going to? What is the Tier list look like for each Dungeon?

Super interested in what you all have to say!

[Arsonistic]

RopeDrink の投稿を引用：

Bear in mind that some of the more potent compositions are fully based on position swapping when you say that. That doesn't excuse the Jester's flaws - but his issue isn't that he's mobile - it's that unless you play him bleed or buff centric, he has no real place anywhere. The other compositions do it because it brings out sheer raw damage eg. HWM PBS spamming, CrusLance etc.

Well, his buffs are too weak to be worthwhile (buffs in general are weak). His bleeds are honestly his only strength.

[RopeDrink]

The buff is stackable - and pretty immense when done so, but that doesn't mean stacking them is equal to, or more effective than, simply using those turns with a different character to just nuke people in the face. Same applies to some bleed/blight comps. They can work - but more often than not, you want to use turns to just do immediate damage. Delays in combat of any kind (stacking buffs, bleeds, blights, or marking) only have a real payoff in situations where you KNOW a fight will go on for quite some time despite your effort to prevent that happening at all. Bosses are only one example of where it can be contrary (as bleed stacking etc wrecks most of them hands down). Unfortunately for the Jester, HoundM does it far, far better.

[Lu]

GhostMessiah の投稿を引用：

The main problem with the Jester (in my mind) is that he has 2 or 3 abilities I would use. The bleeds and the stress heal. Unfortunately in order to get him to use all of them at the same time he has to be in position 3, which is a very crowded position (Occultists, Plague Doctors, Highwaymen, Grave Robbers, all love that spot).
What I really need is units that love position 2. So far I have Crusaders, Houndmasters (although they work anywhere from 2-4), Man at Arms, and that's pretty much it. Hellion needs to be in Position 1 for max effectiveness, Vestal wants to sit in the back. I feel like position 2 is one of the hardest positions to slot well (assuming you aren't on week 50 and have had plenty of time to build the exact team you want.).

Both of the Jester's bleed attacks can be used from position 2, which is the ideal spot for him to play as a Dodge-tank. The stress heal can actually only be used from position 4, but unless you're new to the game and have a hard time dealing with stress, it's a waste using that position only for stress heals. Instead I would simply keep the skill available in case of emergencies, only activating it and moving the Jester from position 2 to 4 when another hero is really on the brink of insanity.

I would say that Highwaymen are also better in position 2 than 3 if you have them in position 1 before a fight then let them Point Blank Shot into position 2. With the right trinket buffs, that move can instakill the frontline enemy almost every time.

[Mothra]

[Somewhat Overpowered]
Hellion
Houndmaster

[Effective]
Crusader
Arbalest
Bounty Hunter
Vestal
Occultist
Man-at-Arms

[Somewhat Underpowered]
Highwayman
Grave Robber
Leper

[Underpowered]
Jester
Plague Doctor


Hellion: Best damage dealer = best class. She could probably use a nerf, but I'm not sure of the best way to do that.

Houndmaster: That PROT debuff mark is insane. Tone that down. Mark + dog treat at the same time is pretty mean to bosses as well, especially since this guy inevitably gets paired up with other target marking classes.

Jester: The bleed attacks are weak and need a lift.

Plague Doctor: Her blight attacks blow. Blinding Gas and Battlefield Medicine are nice, but neither is useful every turn.

[Ninth Hour]

I know that this thread was originally about tier lists but most of my opinions on this matter are already reflected by other posters, so I won't reiterate them. I see that some of the recent feedback has been about character skills, so I thought I'd repost some of my earlier thoughts on this matter:

Leper- adjusting his self buff skills so that they work in any position would give that character at least marginal utility when he is pushed out of position 1 or 2- i.e. he can at least recover from and "tank" attacks from the back. Other poster's ideas regarding a repositioning effect from one of his skills sound good too. As it stands, he is rather risky to use in a few dungeons- an unlucky Treebranch Smack or Tidal Slam can render him useless for a time.

Arbalist- allowing her bandage skill to staunch bleeding seems to make sense and would provide additional synergy with the Occultist (who has the potential to cause bleed with his healing skills) .

Houndmaster- allowing the Cry Havoc skill to work in the front line would give it more flexibility and desirability as a stress relief tool. While it is not bad at present, it suffers from unpredictability and its rank 3 or 4 limitation. Having it work in all positions would also make sense based on its in-game representation. A hound's baying would be audible to all, no matter where in the line it is. Having it work only 66% of the time can remain a limitation to balance its flexibility.

For that matter, allowing the Jester to play any tune in any position would make his role more flexible and less position-specific- e.g. being able to stress heal even if he leaps to the front. It seems kind of arbitrary that certain songs work only from the rear, given that they would be heard along the entire line-up no matter where the Jester is. This change would make him better as a support. His low damage output and fragility could remain to balance his increased versaility.

Highwayman- how the mighty have fallen! As he now stands, he is underwhelming, as anything he can do is done better by someone else. His previous "niche", as a versatile damage dealer, has disappeared. From the back row, an Arbalist's sniper shot, buffed by Restring Crossbow, the appropriate trinkets, and a mark consistently outperforms a HWM's pistol shot that has been buffed by Clean Guns and Gunslinger's Buckle. So does a Houndmaster's Hound Rush, backed by the damage increasing class trinket and a mark. Even a Grave Robber's Lunge attack does more damage, in general, than the HWM's melee and ranged attacks. Man at Arms does comparable damage but has more useful skills that empower the party. Bounty Hunter hits harder when supported by marks and stuns from companions.

The only classes that do less damage, in general, than the HWM are the Vestal, Occultist, Plague Doctor, and Jester and all of those have special skills that compensate in some way. Grave Robber is comparable if she doesn't use Lunge.

HWM's bleed attacks are inferior to those of the Hellion. While his Point Blank shot remains powerful, it suffers from lack of flexibility and needs another hero to push him back to the front to make it his mainstay attack.

Removing or significantly reducing the damage penalty to Pistol Shot and reducing the damage penalty to Graplshot blast (maybe to 30%) could bring him back on par with the other heroes.

[Arsonistic]

^Pretty spot on most there Ninth.

Mothra の投稿を引用：

Hellion: Best damage dealer = best class. She could probably use a nerf, but I'm not sure of the best way to do that.

Crusader comes pretty close to her damage and he has far more utility.
If ANYTHING about her could use a nerf it's her If It Bleeds ability. That thing is bonkers.
Other than that she actually has several weak abilities.

Jester: The bleed attacks are weak and need a lift.

Plague Doctor: Her blight attacks blow. Blinding Gas and Battlefield Medicine are nice, but neither is useful every turn.

You haven't actually done the math, have you? The Jester bleeds are actually his only strong abilities. Harvest being very strong, dealing over 200% effective damage.

You're right about the Plague Doctor however. Her stuff is weaksauce.

[IHaveLigma]

A: Man-at-Arms ,
B: Vestal, Hound Master, Arbalest, Crusader
C: Highwayman, Grave robber, Hellion, Bounty hunter, Plague doctor (Very underrated, i see many people discredit her, which is nuts when thinking of perma backline stun due to double trinkets)
D: Occultist,
E: Leper, Jester

This tier list is based around what they can do when brought together, and having their trinkets (MAA with debuff and stun trinket, vestal full heal trinket, arbalest bandana etc)
Fx lineups like Arba,Vestal,Hound,MAA is almost unstoppable in every dungeon and boss besides cannon.

I wish jester were more viable, but right now other classes like arba and maa can debuff 4 times as well, have better trinket options and do their job more safely.

[Lu]

Ragnar Lothbrok の投稿を引用：

I wish jester were more viable, but right now other classes like arba and maa can debuff 4 times as well, have better trinket options and do their job more safely.

I can do dozens of level 5 dungeons in a row using a party of Jesters without ever losing one or having to treat them for stress back in town. That makes them a bit more than viable in my opinion.

Obviously they're not going to be very viable in the Ruins (though I could still probably scrape through if the RNG isn't horrible). The Cannon boss in the Weald would also pose a problem, but aside from that, they can massacre everything in their path with minimal risk.

[c0nvo]

Tier I : Occultist, Graverobber, Crusader, Hellion
Tier II : Man at Arms, Highwayman, Vestal, PD
Tier III : Arbalest,Bounty Hounter, Leper, Jester
Tier IV : Houndmaster

[Insidious]

Okay, on the topic of the jester, let me just say that his debuff (solo) sucks. Litterally he either misses it, or hits every enemy but they resist the debuff. I can get reliable 1 debuff every 2 turns, which is unnacceptble. Buff the potency of the debuff or his ranged skill accuracy(preferrably both).

Off topic, can we get hero corpses? Please?

[Insidious]

c0nvo の投稿を引用：

Tier I : Occultist, Graverobber, Crusader, Hellion
Tier II : Man at Arms, Highwayman, Vestal, PD
Tier III : Arbalest,Bounty Hounter, Leper, Jester
Tier IV : Houndmaster

I love that he doesnt even rank plague doctor anywhere

[Sovereign246]

Hellion has already been hit very hard by the nerf bat and so i disagree strongly with the idea of nerfing her further.

I use all the heroes where i can. But heroes like the MaA hellion and vestal are definatly ahead of the others.

Vestal is god tier imo every time i run without her the risks of loseing rise by a lot. This is partictualry true when running medium or long dungeons. If i get lucky i can do a short run without one but i havent even attmpted a boss or longer runs without one. Shes not OP there just arent any other effective healers in the game.

Below her based on personal experiance, the hellion and MaA are very strong and i think could benefit any line up.
Grave robber, Highwaymen, Hound master, Plauge doctor, Bounty hunter, Crusader and Arbelest are imo balanced charecters and dont really need adjusting as they are fine when put in the correct comps.
Occultist is balanced but useing him as a healer is futile too much of a risk that he'll give you a 0 heal at the wrong time and is complety outclassed by the vestal. I would like to see more dedicated healers and i'm holding out a small hope that the merchant will have some effective heals in her kit.

Charecters that are outclassed by other heros and are Leper and jester, the crusader is just better than the leper imo, if the leper gets smacked back he is useless the crusader can use holy lance, even if he doesnt his low Acc means he is more likely to miss when its critical that he doesnot. The jester is outclassed by the houndmaster imo full group bleed and his standerd bleed attack does enough damage that it can kill outright especially if against beasts or if he has trinkets. His mark lowering proc is also very useful.

I think however as with any game where there are differant classes, differant things work for differant people, in c0nvos post he ranks the houndmaster rank 4 and i could not disagree more. many say the GR is underpowerd yet she is one of my favorite classes and works well for me. I dont like the jester John swears by him.

With this in mind i think that unless there is a class that is either so underpowed they dont see use by anyone or so overpowerd that its all anyone uses that balanceing needs to be appraoched with small and careful tweaks rather than large buffs or nerfs.

[Arsonistic]

CloakAndDagger の投稿を引用：

Off topic, can we get hero corpses? Please?

Oh yeah, that really should be in the game.

Ragnar Lothbrok の投稿を引用：

Plague doctor (Very underrated, i see many people discredit her, which is nuts when thinking of perma backline stun due to double trinkets)

Yeah, 210% stun chance against 2 enemies is bonkers, but that's literally her only strong ability. All the others are in need of buffs.

[Lu]

Arsonist Cow の投稿を引用：

No, it does not.
Personal experience =/= fact.
Make logical arguments instead.

Where did I use the word fact? I clearly said "in my opinion" not "this is a fact".

Are you seriously suggesting that I can't form an opinion about the viability of a class from extensive experience using them, or are you just having difficulty reading?

[Arsonistic]

Marma の投稿を引用：

Where did I use the word fact? I clearly said "in my opinion" not "this is a fact".

Are you seriously suggesting that I can't form an opinion about the viability of a class from extensive experience using them, or are you just having difficulty reading?

You're right. My bad. I misread.

But could you please reign in your clear bias toward Jesters? You may have actually done dozens of dungeons in a row without ever losing one or having to treat one for stress, but for that to be possible you'd have to need close to perfect quirks and trinkets on all 4 Jesters. And any other set of classes with a stress heal can do it too.
Bias is unhelpful for discussion.