Do people like the Crusader?

[Lucid]

I seem to not have much use for him. I like the vestal more in ruins and grave robber plague doctor combo. I'm wondering if I'm using the crusader wrong?

[Reaper King]

Crusader is my favorite frontline tank out there. Man at arms, Barbarian, Leper, and bounty hunter are all fun. But they all can be incredibly hit or miss as they are built around a specialized playstyle. For leper to be good you have to spend one turn activity his damage bonuses. For MaM you have to rely on Riposte, Barbarian has phenomenal damage but is highly reliable on first slot placement and cant support the team. Crusader has solid damage, excellent items, good health and armor, and a solid choice of differrent attacks and abilities including the utility brought during camping.

[RopeDrink]

MAA has never relied on Riposte for anything. For him, having access to Riposte is just icing on the cake. If you want Riposte specifically, then Highwayman is better in almost every respect, but for MAA, you would typically save it for things like Endless Mode Dodge-Comp cheese, or for specific bosses where team-wide AoE is a regular mechanic.

MAA can Crush R3 from R1/R2 - which neither Crusader nor Leper can do via their own heavy front-rank bread-and-butter - but at least Crusader has back-rank Lance. MAA also has a great, mobile, single-target knockback stun, backed by party-wide support and being only one of two guards in the whole game. Just like Crusader, he's barely phased by positioning.

MAA and CRU are stupidly versatile support-based meat sacks that can be played anywhere, whereas HEL and LEP are akin to Bruisers who are primarily there to deal damage and shine brightest in R1. MAA is not there to be a humungous damage dealer, but rather, to keep people alive via stuns, guard, buffs, debuffs, and decent damage, with Rampart and Crush being the go-to damage buttons, bringing pesky R3's forward into R2 (or) simply slapping R3 with Crush whenever stuns, de-shuffle, or support isn't required.

Unsurprisingly, he's causing absolute havoc in DD2 as well.

As for Crusader, he is a torch-raising healer, soother, stunner, and dancing projector rolled into one, playable full-time from anywhere while having some of the highest health and baseline damage in the game, the most unphased by movement, and rocking nothing but pure stress-reduction and anti-ambush camping skills. That versatility is self-explanatory to anyone who understands the game and isn't blinded by the potencies of individual roles, such as JESTAL.

[Skinny Pete]

Nguyên văn bởi RopeDrink:

MAA and CRU are stupidly versatile support-based meat sacks that can be played anywhere, whereas HEL and LEP are akin to Bruisers who are primarily there to deal damage and shine brightest in R1.

Obviously of the two, HEL is best. LEP can do ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ against back ranks without Intimidate, which he gets to do last, being the slowest most gimped hero. This is only good for backline bosses who are actually going to live for several rounds.

LEP is as all sane people know, the worst hero in the game, objectively. If you calculated a Nash Equilibrium for heroes, LEP is just plain the worst.

HEL is one of the best. From R1, HEL can stun the first two ranks (something I rarely actually do even though the stun/stall strategy actually is one of the best), can hit R2/R3 with a bleed, can hit enemy R1 with one of the most devastating bleeds in the game, and hit R4 with Iron Swan.

That is ridiculously powerful. And that's not even counting the self-cure/buff and move skill that I rarely use.

I almost always bring HEL to the Weald because Iron Swan is great against that horrific Virago ♥♥♥♥♥. Especially combined with Arbalest as a finisher.

[No One]

I made a crusader party for you.

GR-CRU-VES-HEL

Kit out the GR for range. Round 1 is iron swan and dagger throw to 4, typically killing it. If not, CRU mops up. Otherwise, lance 3.
If there's stealth or priority in other ranks, no problem. I often ended up executing rank 1 with bleed out.
Has blight, bleed, disease clear, and three stuns. In particular, someone else can stun if the healers are healing.

I ended up with a poison-dag-flash-lunge GR. Despite lack of +melee, you can set up a lunge with poison dart. Don't need shadow fade for reloading, as the CRU can lunge the GR back. I ended up using lunge to kill the last enemy anyway, the reset can happen after the battle.

--

Note that the crusader is third in damage only technically, 10-19 vs. 11-20. I consider that the same damage tier - the highest non-leper damage tier. Tied with GR lunge and OCC vs. eldritch.
ABM does get a damage bonus on transform, but also you shouldn't transform him 99% of the time, making 11-20 an especially niche data point...

[Zenith]

yes

[Justice]

Nguyên văn bởi Skinny Pete:

LEP is as all sane people know, the worst hero in the game, objectively. If you calculated a Nash Equilibrium for heroes, LEP is just plain the worst.

I can easily build parties around Leper and not being as useless as Antiqurian or graverobber anti-position and horrible dmg that solely relly on lunge crit while rest of her combat kit that just so bad it's not worth bothering when nearly all heroes can do better dmg and GR practically no support skills. (flashing daggers bleed debuff is a joke, so I don't count it)

No matter how much tried I couldn't build a single party that satisfy my needs and desired performance with these 2.

[aidanfilson25]

Nguyên văn bởi Justice:

Nguyên văn bởi Skinny Pete:

LEP is as all sane people know, the worst hero in the game, objectively. If you calculated a Nash Equilibrium for heroes, LEP is just plain the worst.

I can easily build parties around Leper and not being as useless as Antiqurian or graverobber anti-position and horrible dmg that solely relly on lunge crit while rest of her combat kit that just so bad it's not worth bothering when nearly all heroes can do better dmg and GR practically no support skills. (flashing daggers bleed debuff is a joke, so I don't count it)

No matter how much tried I couldn't build a single party that satisfy my needs and desired performance with these 2.

The parties that I make with GR do fine.

Sometimes you just need a very fast burst attack that onetaps a third position enemy or at least comes close. Her high crit rate also contributes to keeping stress down over the course of a dungeon.

Also Anti is kind of an unfair comparison, her job is to make money and she does that very well. And even then she is a very strong hero in endless.

[Justice]

Nguyên văn bởi aidanfilson25:

Nguyên văn bởi Justice:

I can easily build parties around Leper and not being as useless as Antiqurian or graverobber anti-position and horrible dmg that solely relly on lunge crit while rest of her combat kit that just so bad it's not worth bothering when nearly all heroes can do better dmg and GR practically no support skills. (flashing daggers bleed debuff is a joke, so I don't count it)

No matter how much tried I couldn't build a single party that satisfy my needs and desired performance with these 2.

The parties that I make with GR do fine.

Sometimes you just need a very fast burst attack that onetaps a third position enemy or at least comes close. Her high crit rate also contributes to keeping stress down over the course of a dungeon.

It's too rng dependent for me and when she deals 12-15dmg with lunge - I feel like a bozo. It wouldn't be so bad if she had anything helpfull in her combat kit, but she simply doesn't. Every other GR combat abilitites are just weaker versions of other heroes similiar offensive attacks

[RopeDrink]

It wouldn't be so bad if she had anything helpfull in her combat kit, but she simply doesn't.

Lunge - up to 7-14 (+40% flat damage and 8-12% crit). Additional 20-33% against blighted, either by herself or in tandem with other fast heroes like PD, ShB, ABM, etc. Even when ignoring self-setups, you will consistently annihilate or utterly maim R3 priorities as an opening move during the humble majority of battles.

Additional 80-100% damage + 4-8% extra crit increase if you bother with Shadow Fade -- hiding her from every damage source except AoE's in the process, if not to reshuffle her whenever a simple PttFace doesn't do the job, which happens to be one of only two sources of raw Piercing in the game.

Blight Dart - has the same 95 ACC as Lunge and is usable from 3/4 against 4/4, not to mention blight synergy with her own skills to compensate for lower damage and potency, unlike heroes like PD (who cannot reach the front with bomb, the back with Nox, and is 2/4,3/4 in terms of positioning as the best blighter in the game).

Thrown Dagger - has Mark + Blight synergy and stacking Accuracy, usable 3/4 v 3/4 with 8% crit, often one-shotting or severely maiming numerous R4 priorities as a first move, most of which are inherently squishy. Press this whenever Lunging R3 isn't more favorable.

Flashing Daggers - AoE skill at only -33% which happens to hit R3, thus usable as an R3 kill-secure while softening up R2 and reducing bleed resistance. AoE skills typically aren't that great, but you could do much worse.

Toxin Trickery - perhaps the only button I never take, yet despite the low value of buffing during standard content, it's still +Speed and DOT removal with some Dodge for good measure.

Given her high critical values and 100% trap disarm, she often inadvertently self-manages her own stress and also contributes occasional AoE stress reduction via sheer speed and attack frequency alone, not to mention Gallows Humour, disease removal, and free provisions (Shovel + Pilfer).

Despite all that, the real value of GR is being the fastest + highly accurate heroes straight out of the box with solid fight openers, typically resulting in instantaneously dead or maimed target(s) before battles have truly begun.

Saying she has nothing useful in (or out) of combat is extremely questionable.

[Justice]

Blight dart not even comparable to plague grenades that hit 2 targets and deal more dot dmg, And Noxius blast deal even more dot dmg although only to frontline, but with additional benefit lowering enemy accuracy

Trown dagger - is dmg is just pathetically weak and no amount synergy can make it better than raw dmg of holy lance, iron swan, sniper shot, pistol shot, finish him and even hounds rush. And they have much higher dmg output from mark synergy than dagger

Flashing daggers AoE vs 2-3 enemy position can be replaced with Abomination Beast Ville, Jester harvest, Highwayman grapeshot, Hellion breakthrough. All them surpass with dot or raw dmg

Toxic trickery - who cares? 1 time use and doesn't even heal herself. Dosn't help with dealing with enemies

Shadow fade - skip a turn to do 2x dmg. Not much achieved.

[aidanfilson25]

So I think the most important comparison here is thrown dagger, something you're not applying to the logic of how good these are compared to eachother is that GR is significantly faster than every hero you listed as something to compare it to. The speed of a hero is a non-negligable factor when taking into consideration how good a move is. It makes her one of the best at finishing off a weakened enemy between rounds.

More importantly I think you're just overestimating how some of these moves compare to her. Pistol shot only has +1 min/max damage over thrown dagger, less accuracy, and a little less crit. Hound rush actually does less or equal damage if you don't consider the bleed tick (or if it's resisted), has less accuracy, and less crit. Sniper shot only has +1 min/max damage over thrown dagger, more accuracy (equal after one use of dagger throw), and less crit. The difference between these attacks is negligable beyond minor variations in where the stats are put, to say thrown dagger's damage is pathetically weak compared to them is objectively not true.

[RopeDrink]

Nguyên văn bởi Justice:

Trown dagger - is dmg is just pathetically weak and no amount synergy can make it better than raw dmg of holy lance, iron swan, sniper shot, pistol shot, finish him and even hounds rush.

Your examples are slower (rush/swan/snipe/shot/finish/lance), R1 restricted (swan), non-static (lance), can't reach R4 (finish), require bleed/mods to compete (rush), and are also mark-centric (sniper/pistol/rush) - not to mention lack of accuracy stack.

According to you, "no amount of synergy can make it better", so that automatically dilutes all ranged buttons to similar levels. If we ignore +73% potential bonus on Dagger, and the potential +50% bonus on the most comparable alternative (Pistol Shot), the difference boils down to one single point of damage.

Reminder, T-Dagger comes from the fastest hero in the game, has more crit than all of your suggestions, has more accuracy than everything except Sniper Shot, and the damage is absolutely comparable - especially slower heroes who won't hit nearly as often as a Grave Robber within typical 1-3 round environs.

Again, Thrown Dagger is perfectly capable of maiming or decimating R4 priorities as a first move, particularly with crits -- coming at 8-10 SPD | 90-110 ACC before you even consider trinkets, buffs, and quirks.

If I had a cent for every fight over the past 8 years that began with instantly dead spiders, cultists, courtiers, bandits (etc) thanks to first-turn Grave Robbers casually chucking daggers instead of lunging R3, I'd have been rich years ago.

Nguyên văn bởi Justice:

Flashing daggers AoE vs 2-3 enemy position can be replaced with Abomination Beast Ville, Jester harvest, Highwayman grapeshot, Hellion breakthrough. All them surpass with dot or raw dmg

From under-selling T-Dagger to over-selling AoE's.

Flashing Daggers:
Usable from 3/4 positions, shreds 20-33% bleed resist, and hits for 10+10 instantaneous unmodified damage at max level. No fuss or nonsense beyond ACC/PROT/DMG.

Beast Bile:
Can only be used from 2/4 and requires you to hit + bypass resistance to land both effects. Deals -90% raw damage at all levels, so even at max high-end baseline of 20, it deals 0-2 upfront. Blight ranges from 2p3 to 5p3 (x2). Assuming both blights "land all the time" and "no ticks are wasted", that's 12-30 (after three rounds), so about 0-2 + 4-10 per activation (assuming early ticks against both targets).

Harvest:
Can only be used from 2/4 and requires you to hit + bypass resistance to land both effects. Deals -50% raw damage at all levels, so even at max high-end baseline of 13, it deals 13 damage upfront. Bleed ranges from 2p3 to 4p3 (x2). Assuming both bleeds "land all the time" and "no ticks are wasted", that's 12-24 (after three rounds), so about 13 + 4-8 per activation (assuming early ticks against both targets).

So, 20 instantaneous GR damage with no need to bypass resistance, 17-21 bleed centric (JES), or almost no raw (ABM) in exchange for 1p3x2 points of extra blight compared to Harvest's bleed - all very comparable - with GR being 1 point faster, greater raw damage potential (including trinkets), and more positional freedom. Ultimately, it's a simple decision between wanting RAW or X/Y DoT at a given moment, and in any scenario where either (or both) DoTs are resisted or fall off early, you'll wish you took 20 damage.

If you have an ABM/JES/GR combination, then her Flashing Daggers improves Harvest bleed procs, Bile improves Dagger/Lunge damage, Dart improves Bile procs, etc.

---

Grapeshot:
Can only be used from 2/4, comes 3 SPD slower, has less crit, and 15 less accuracy - which is not ideal when spreading your damage over three targets instead of two. In total, it deals 24 damage at max-level, assuming you hit all three.

Breakthrough:
Hits harder because it's a mobility skill that reduces her damage and speed with each use of 3/7 buttons, and also cannot be used from her prime position - unlike GR, who can sit and spam AoE all day long without such concerns.

Regardless of these minuscule differences, the benefit of GR involves being the fastest and most critically-handed hero in the game, and one of the most accurate and flexible straight out of the box. A consistent first-turn fight-winner, coupled with great range, good camping, extra provisions, and disease removal, none of which should require more explanation.

Nguyên văn bởi Justice:

Blight dart not even comparable to plague grenades that hit 2 targets and deal more dot dmg

Potency is one cog. Instead of labeling buttons as 'pathetically weak' over 1-4 damage differences - in a game where low damage is already curb-stomp material - take note of the speed, accuracy, positioning, targeting, mobility, alternatives, and comp issues with said buttons.

Grave Robber can throw a single-button blight from 3/4 positions against any target on demand, whereas a PD requires two buttons to maintain that same reach, losing both in R1, her grenade in R2, no damaging alternative beyond low-reach Incision, and absolutely no mobility at all. She is the undisputed queen of blight, but just like JESTAL heal/soothe discussions, the cost of these stricter specialized potencies is always overlooked.

Such elements hark back to Crusader, who can heal and soothe from any position as a reshuffling support/stunner, playable full-time from anywhere within practically any comp in the game - and that has its own unique value compared to the likes of JESTAL, who primarily boil down to raw sustain potency, much like focusing on damage numbers hinging on R4/R3.

[Skinny Pete]

Nguyên văn bởi Justice:

Blight dart not even comparable to plague grenades that hit 2 targets and deal more dot dmg, And Noxius blast deal even more dot dmg although only to frontline, but with additional benefit lowering enemy accuracy

I notice you ignore lunge, which annihilates an R3 enemy more than half the time. How is that not good? Or Pick to the Face, which nullifies PROT. Plus you're in the right rank to use it if you open with Lunge.

True, the blight is weak, I don't like fade, and flashing daggers borders on useless (although not as bad as the toxin trickery).

A kill on R3 (often before it even gets to attack) is being halfway to the fight just being basically over and into the heal/stress heal part. How anyone can say that's useless is beyond me.

Nguyên văn bởi RopeDrink:

Reminder, T-Dagger comes from the fastest hero in the game, has more crit than all of your suggestions, has more accuracy than everything except Sniper Shot, and the damage is absolutely comparable - especially slower heroes who won't hit nearly as often as a Grave Robber within typical 1-3 round environs.

I don't usually use this, but it's always on the bar. The times it is actually useful, it is critical, especially if you get a crit. And it has bonus ACC on top of a high crit chance.

[RopeDrink]

Nguyên văn bởi Skinny Pete:

True, the blight is weak

The blight is weak simply because Dart and Vapour are the only two targetable single-button blight skills in the game that can hit ANY target on demand (and from most/all positions to boot), something that Plague Doctors and Abominations simply can't do.

The closest thing to an exception is a leveled R1 Impale (SHB), which AoE's the entire team at once, so it's not the same thing. If you're doing that as your only means of blighting R4, then you're dealing with half Dart/Fester blight, backmove, and a lot of potential waste.

A Plague Doctor requires two buttons and one of two positions to have that same reach (Grenade/Nox). Abomination can ONLY blight the mid (from the mid) with Bile. Shield Breaker can use an R1 exclusive back move to blight R1/R2 (Adder), blight one mid from the mid (Captivate), and blight R4 with a move/AoE, so three buttons for total targeting.

They all harbor higher restrictions and requirements - be it targeting, positioning, movement, accuracy, raw damage, etc - hence they do more blight due to being more contained or finicky, whereas a GR sitting as close as R2, or an ANT sitting literally anywhere, can randomly decide on a whim that R1, R2, R3, or R4 deserves some extra caustic agony today.

Dart has one less position than Festering, in return for GR's higher speed, higher raw damage, and almost triple the crit (11.5% vs 4%). I'm not saying Dart is great - everyone and their mother will want buttons like Nox or Grenade instead for obvious reasons - but just like Crusader, people have a terrible habit of ONLY checking potencies when considering buttons, and not the compositional or positional freedom the alternatives provide.

[No One]

The blight is weak because it makes dagger throw hit as hard as lunge. Also if used on bosses she puts out insane damage with lunge.

--

I made another crusader party for OP.

ARB-HWM-HM-CRU

You can power up ARBs and HWMs to +40% damage. Keening bolts (com) + wrathful bandana (class red). Crystalline gunpowder + gunslinger buckle (class red). Actually the ARB is 45%. That's nearly 3 characters worth of damage between the two of them.
They have issues getting through prot, though, so there's a houndmaster. I gave him +stun and +speed (feather charm). CRU went full +stun +stun.
Conveniently pistol shot also does extra damage vs. marked.

Ideally you get a speed quirk on the ARB so you can use blindfire on turn 1. Basically a free attack if you can get over 10 speed.
I only have a hot to trot unerring ARB...

--

I already had this team, but I optimized it.

HM-ARB-BH-CRU

CRU still goes double +stun. HM uses the prophet's eye and his dog collar. BH can functionally hit the back with his mark. ARB and BH goes full +crit, keeing bolts + ancestor's musket ball, and ancestor's pen + surgeon's gloves.

Really fun on giants, especially if the CRU has a speed quirk. HM marks, ARB and BH crit for like 100 damage, and the CRU stuns it, so it dies before it gets to do anything. Due to HM mark being OP OP, it in works on any double-wide.

tag: [z-z-z-z]