Buffs and their usefulness

[Mta]

Does anyone use the for example the lepers revenge buff,tracking shot,vapors etc.? I think its kinda a waste of a turn for self buffing because you could be damaging the enemy and potentially killing one of them in that turn. I just wanna know if anyone found some great use for these type of skills.

[NotMeth]

They're situational. Really the only time to bother with a buff for Leper or Hellion is if you notice that your chance to hit is somewhere like 60%. Vapors is good because it buffs also your speed so that means the buffed hero can go faster the next turn and kill an enemy before they can act. Not only that but a Buffed Hero often can out damage what a Plague Doctor can do on a regular basis. Party Buffs are also pretty good. +Acc are a godsend for high dodge enemies, +Speed is always good since that means you can act before the enemies the next turn meaning that say you could kill one guy now, OR you could buff your Party Speed, go first next turn, annihilate two guys before they can act now that you've chipped off some health. Think of it this way, if your Speed Buffer can't finish off the guy with his attack, just buff the Party Speed hoping that someone with High DMG can go before who you're supposed to finish off and kill them before they can act. +Dodge is only really viable for a dodge party since they only become effective around the time you get >50 Dodge.

[Crazy_Cat_Gentleman]

I like Battle Ballad and Bolster, but those buff the whole team. I also use the abilities that buff as well as doing something and consider that buff a nice extra. But no, I don't tend to use the ones that ONLY buff, or the ones where the buff is the primary effect, because it's just not worth it when your character could instead kill a monster or get one closer to death.

[NotMeth]

Originally posted by HMV Plays:

I like Battle Ballad and Bolster, but those buff the whole team. I also use the abilities that buff as well as doing something and consider that buff a nice extra. But no, I don't tend to use the ones that ONLY buff, or the ones where the buff is the primary effect, because it's just not worth it when your character could instead kill a monster or get one closer to death.

Well think of it this way, you're on the 4th Space on the Hallway, the Room you'll be entering is a battle room, you got one fodder enemy left. It'd be better to ignore the enemy for 1 turn to buff and heal everyone up in preparation for the next room. Single Buffs suck yeah, especially Leper's Revenge or Hellion's Adrenaline Rush, but wouldn't you rather buff your Acc instead of risk trying to hit 59% to hit? (They show up on the lower right side of the screen) Would you rather have dealt no damage instead of slightly buffed up damage? But yeah, they're highly situational and you're better off attacking than buffing most of the time.

[torney]

unless man at arms (the shield guy) can secure a kill i always bolster on first turn

[Kuga]

Originally posted by Vash The Stampede:

unless man at arms (the shield guy) can secure a kill i always bolster on first turn

Yeah, bolster is great in later dungeons.

[Crazy_Cat_Gentleman]

Sometimes all my MaA does is Bolster, all battle long.

Originally posted by Jethawkings:

...you're on the 4th Space on the Hallway, the Room you'll be entering is a battle room, you got one fodder enemy left.

Oh sure I cheese those battles every time. My dungeon walls are covered in thick layers of queso from all the cheesing I've done down there. But as you say, that's situational and in your typical fight, there is either an enemy to kill, one to get ready for the next person to kill, one to stun/blight/bleed/etc, or a full party buff to perform. It's rare - outside of cheesing an easy battle for a more permanent gain - where I'd dip so low in my toolbox to use those self buffs.

Though I will use Toxin Trickery in my 3-GR team, because I don't bring a healer with them.

[Lujo]

Vapors is actually quite ok, it's a decent ole buff. If you've got a stunbot PD with 2 stuns and battlefield medicing, your probably in a habit of attacking with other guys anyway, so if he catches a break between the stuns and whatnot buffing someone else to go stupidly fast and hit a bit harder isn't such a bad idea at all. Leper, for example, hews much better at only -10 rather than -40, etc.

This leaves him incapable of doing any damage himself, but I've (accidentally) done this in a succesful DD run, so It's probably not bad at all. Should be rather good with Riposte if you're in a situation to trigger it often and all that.

[dnrob7]

Defence buffs like Bulwark of faith and the Leper's defence buff can be very much worth it at times.
There will be many situations where you simply can't put an enemy down with the turns you have left and knowing you are going to have to soak one or two and meeting it with high Prot% is a decent strategy.

[voragoski]

I've found that Tracking Shot and Bulwark are great early game. Bulwark helps you save on torches, and if it brings you back up from Dim to Radiant your entire team basically gets buffed. Tracking Shot is almost necessary if you want a remote chance to hit those pesky Madmen or Courtiers at the back (Tracking Shot also does damage, and every little bit counts early game). With the Antiquarian I haven't really used Vapors so much as the aoe team dodge + guard abilities, but I probably should have, since the Antiquarian is only really useful for buffs anyway and the faster hits from my main damage dealer will help.

So far as I've seen, Revenge isn't worth it. Your Leper is better off getting +acc buffs from camping or his gear, and using his moves on his already solid attacks, Withstand for heavier fights, and Solemnity for the heal on both HP and stress (or moves like Purge to knock the enemy team around). Hellion buff is useful for bleed / blight heavy fights in a pinch, too.

As what others have already said, buffs are best used if they're team buffs, defensive buffs, or can be used on other heroes that can do stuff better than your hero can (eg. damage buffs on damage heroes). Pure +damage buffs are normally not worth it.

[No One]

All-battle buffs are great for bosses.

+acc buffs are useful if you can't get +acc trinkets, or you're fighting the shrieker.

In general a buff should sacrifice an attack to pay off in spades later. In darkest dungeon the buffs do not normally pay off.

After trinkets, MAA's command has an expected 154% return on damage. So, about as much as grapeshot, but it takes three turns, and caveat: nobody can not attack, or you'll fall behind. Don't try to heal or do any low-damage stuns.

On top of this, as you mention, damage ought to be frontloaded. A good party can easily kill both backliners on turn 1, but they can only do that if nobody is buffing. A party should never take four attacks in a single round, but they're awfully likely to do that if someone is buffing.

Revenge actually does pay off pretty well. You're caught up two turns later, and it's not like the leper can normally help kill the back anyway.

Basically enemy mashes aren't set up to let you use buffs. Even on bosses, their value is dubious. Except, as I said at the top, if you can't get enough +acc from trinkets, then they can prevent RNG screw and get a nice consistent performance. Or if you're endless and it's time to cheese crit stacking.

[RopeDrink]

I personally don't bother with buff-skills outside of endless or specific boss fights. However, I will definitely Bulwark/Withstand/Bolster etc in Endless given they are one-cast-per-battle and last for waves of mobs, so there's no reason not to when each non-boss wave involves starting with forgettable fodder.

However, depending on the buff (mostly the spammables), some last for X number of rounds and don't automatically reset just because combat ended, so there are times when you could squeeze in buffs pre-enemy death in one fight and walk into another fight with said buffs still active, which is a nice boon to have -- a great way to end a corridoor fight before walking into a curio/boss-room, or a double-corridoor fight, or before the next phase of endless (seeing as you lose no rounds when ported to the item-room).

[Magni]

The battle-length buffs are great ifyou're in a fight that's gonna drag on a while either way. Certain enemy combos, bosses, the Farmstead. Bolster on the MaA is great in general, having -stress in every fight makes a huge difference across an entire expedition.

[laveley]

Like already stated, buffs are only really worth it on boss/long fights.

[RopeDrink]

A very common group I go into Endless with for a quick 100 kill // 100 shards is VES > CRU > HWM > SB.

I call it my MillerKiller team as they comfortably annihilate the first two bosses and can typically reach the third. When doing this I definitely take Tracking Shot, whereas I'd rarely consider it for standard content as more comp-freedom leads to less need for per-battle buffs and the availability of alternative answers to stealth-mobs.

As for endless, you can tracking shot at the beginning if you feel there's no major threat, use it as a sneaky 'finisher' that just happens to buff your damage, or use it in tandem to ruin stealthers -- no matter what way you do it, it's a crit and damage buff for the rest of the wave - but it's primarily there for boss fights.

Eg. Due to how Miller works, if you have the locket, he buff someone, summon a mob, freeze it - this leaves you free to cast self-buffs. After that it's DAdvance - he will start reaping after it is up, so you're gaining totally free/buffed damage on the boss that can't be guarded.

Same applies to second boss. Team usually has the shard pushed into phase 2 before the little ones explode, yet if they do, there's a very high chance the HWM will crit/riposte -- and kills earned this way prevent on-hit effects from landing, so if it was a stress-attack, for example, and he kills it by riposting, nobody gains the stress effect. 2nd phase involves constant AoE, so again, even more free damage -- and not having this buffed by something such as Tracking Shot is a total waste.

[Lujo]

The defensive self-mark +prot buffs on the crusader and leper are really good. You won't use them in every fight, but when you know you won't burst enough things down they are the moves to make.

De-stealth moves in general can seriously alter a fight so keeping tracking shot around as something you otherwise use to finish guy off can pay off.