Debuffs punish too much

[Fennec Fawx]

Before I begin, just want to say that I love this game to bits and this is more of a discussion, not a rant as such even if it appears to look like one. I am just confused on the debuffs as it feels like a forced difficulty spike rather than something that makes logical sense. Thanks

So, most attacks seem to carry debuffs now since the games release, I only just started playing darkest dungeon last week, haven't played since houndmaster came out in early access, somewhere around that time. I am okay with this, until now that I have seen the majority of the game, I can safelty say most of these debuffs seem ridiculous. They seem enchance the difficulty in a fake kinda way. Most of the attacks that have debuffs put onto them dont need them at all mostly because they dont make sense and it's entirely unneccessery, they only exist to make the game more "difficult"
Here's what I mean:

One of my best examples is the webber spider, it's web attack marks you and it allows it's partner spiders to deal extra damage with the spit and bite attacks, this makes sense, but the web carries a debuff, -20 or 30 something % of blight resist? What? I understand this is again to enchance the power of it's fellow spiders attacks, but it seems a fake way to increase difficulty in a silly illogical way.
Lowering blight resist is a not needed at all, the damage from the spit is enough to make this combo effective and makes these enemies very threatening as is, the debuff just makes it unnecceserily harder, just to punish you forcefully. If you really need a debuff associated with your attacks, why not go the more logical way. A more clear cut and obvious debuff would be a small speed and dodge debuff, the hero gets shot by a spiders web and is somewhat immobilized by the thick silk, lowering their speed and dodge. It would make more sense at least.

Another example, the cultist duo, they are everywhere and they are super annoying.
Rend for the old gods adds a stress resist debuff, allowing there fellow cultist witches and acolytes to do crazy amounts of stress with their incantations. The Cultist Acolytes and what not already do enough stress, we dont need stress debuffs forced down to make the game punish you more without real good reason.

Final example I can think of from the top of my head right now is bone defender, axeblade reduces stun and move resist, but why? I know a axe is a sharp and powerful tool, but I dont see much reason for it to carry the debuff other than to make it's other attack a lot more annoying. Dead weight is already a threatening attack as is, you dont need debuffs to make it worse, it's fine as is and it just makes the game more annoying then neccessery. The same can be said for bone commanders but it makes more sense logically at least this time, the giant undead skeleton slams his huge mace onto you, crushing you with full force, lowers stun resist. Makes sense, a heavy blow like that would take you right out of it and make you more prone to dissorientation, if it didn't already. But the problem is that ground pound, once again, is threatening enough on it's own and you dont need to debuff the hell out of us to make it worse.

I know I went in huge detail unnecceserily and I apologise for the length of this.
TL;DR, Most debuffs seem to exist for a fake difficulty increase, rather than having a actual good reason to be there at all.

Thank you for reading and I dont mean to anger anyone. Just wanted to present my thoughts :)

[aardvarkpepper]

Originally posted by Fennec Fawx 💀:

TL;DR, Most debuffs seem to exist for a fake difficulty increase, rather than having a actual good reason to be there at all.

Thank you for reading and I dont mean to anger anyone. Just wanted to present my thoughts :)

yeah and I read every word btw even if I abbreviated to just the quote above.

yeah people are gonna rant and people are gonna get mad internets right? basically just be polite no need for self-deprecation.

As to whatever fake difficulty increase well maybe "whatever" isn't a considered term, I'm feeling pretty sick (why not take a nap cos when I dunno things are spinning around a bit and I feel kinda barfy so yeah sleeping is just kinda weird atm) - but anyways - as I read it you're not actually concerned with difficulty increase, it's just that you want the game to have more versilimitude, the game should make sense, llike the web should slow or something instead of giving poison debuff &c &c &c.

So you would be okay with it if they just made spider attacks straight up do more venom damage? Hey yeah that is a serious question from reading the OP supposedly the concern is the difficulty level? but all the examples I read are about versilimitude? so it's a legitimate question.

Then if you want to say that game balance is secondary - hey. I'm not going to argue that point. My opinion is that things should make sense in games as much as possible. Personal opinion.

Couple game balance things you didn't mention, not sure they're important to your argument or if you consider these counterarguments but whatever.

You have different enemy targets that combine to create a nastier effect. Let's say that's a deliberate design. (whatever that's a made up assertion I know but just go with it).

So when you have a Leper that can target front row enemies but not back, you don't eliminate the back row enemies but you do take out the additional debuffs at least.

So when you have classes with different debuff resistances (they do have different debuff resistances) further different trinkets change debuff resistances maybe up maybe down, that's another dimension they want to bring in; if you only encountered debuffs once in a blue moon, wouldn't be much point to having resistances in the game now would it? Legitimate question, not a rhetorical question, mind, if you have a counter, I wouldn't say it's impossible, you could say that debuffs ought to be the province of boss monsters and although they ought to be a part of gameplay &c - hey that's perfectly reasonable only it pushes things into the domain of personal preference but eh).

Or whatever arguments about game balance and stuff.

Now again as I see it the real objection isn't game balance or difficulty in the OP, it's versilimitude, so let's get a response on whether or not that's an accurate assessment.

did i dun good on reading comprehension?

[Fennec Fawx]

Originally posted by aardvarkpepper:

Originally posted by Fennec Fawx 💀:

TL;DR, Most debuffs seem to exist for a fake difficulty increase, rather than having a actual good reason to be there at all.

Thank you for reading and I dont mean to anger anyone. Just wanted to present my thoughts :)

yeah and I read every word btw even if I abbreviated to just the quote above.

did i dun good on reading comprehension?

Yeah you did good, and I did make it sound sorta confusing that I presented it as a fake difficulty discussion and it turned more to logic problems. My problem is a mix of both but I showed one side way more than the other so I understand the confusion. When I said I was okay with the spider spit doing more damage on a marked target, it's because it's what makes them a team, with good difficulty with good reason.

The debuff has no reason to be there as they are already threatening enough, it just makes the game more punishing, but it feels forced, and makes no sense.
That's basically what I meant in all of it, but I didn't present it properly so I'll edit the thread in a moment.

[LaserGuy]

I gather that the debuffs were added to try to give some strategic synergy to the monster groups. As you say, the cultist brawlers debuff stress, and the acolytes can do more stress. The acolytes also mark, letting the brawlers do more damage. Vicious circle.

On the whole, I don't find the debuffs too annoying. There's a few that are nasty (of the -20 Dodge variety), but usually those aren't paired with a strong attack. -20% bleed resist doesn't really make that much difference. Even the stress resist debuffs actually don't make a huge difference... -20% stress damage is really only like 3 extra points of stress on a typical attack.

It would be nice if there were more ways to counteract debuffs though. Right now you have herbs, and you have the Arbalest rallying flare skill (but that only adds a minor buff to resistance, and not enough to justify having a character spam it). Having a skill or two that can remove debuffs entirely would make the situation pretty reasonable, IMHO. Off the top of my head, I'd pick Battle Heal (Crusader), Cry Havoc (Hound Master, whole party but only a %age chance, same as the stress relief) and maybe Emboldening Vapors (Plague Doctor).

[Fennec Fawx]

Originally posted by aaron.m.barlow:

I gather that the debuffs were added to try to give some strategic synergy to the monster groups. As you say, the cultist brawlers debuff stress, and the acolytes can do more stress. The acolytes also mark, letting the brawlers do more damage. Vicious circle.

On the whole, I don't find the debuffs too annoying. There's a few that are nasty (of the -20 Dodge variety), but usually those aren't paired with a strong attack. -20% bleed resist doesn't really make that much difference. Even the stress resist debuffs actually don't make a huge difference... -20% stress damage is really only like 3 extra points of stress on a typical attack.

It would be nice if there were more ways to counteract debuffs though. Right now you have herbs, and you have the Arbalest rallying flare skill (but that only adds a minor buff to resistance, and not enough to justify having a character spam it). Having a skill or two that can remove debuffs entirely would make the situation pretty reasonable, IMHO. Off the top of my head, I'd pick Battle Heal (Crusader), Cry Havoc (Hound Master, whole party but only a %age chance, same as the stress relief) and maybe Emboldening Vapors (Plague Doctor).

I just edited my original post but I dont wish to waste time with you reading it all again, but I got my point kinda across wrong. Basically my main gripe is that most debuffs exist to make the game more punishing without good reason, cultist brawlers increas stress damage, but it's not needed, acolytes stressful incantation is threatening enough, but when the bralwer stacks the debuffs on, oh no 40 stress just lands on a heroe's lap.
Most debuffs just feel entirely unneccesery

[Lujo]

Oddly enough, to me it sorta feels like the enemies make way more sense once their attacks start applying debuffs. So the exact opposite, I don't mind the fact that it makes the damages go up and the various abilities to trigger more often or what it does to the difficulty, I find it refreshing that they start presenting actually senisble, readable mechanical threats.

The crusher crab in the cove, for example - not only does he bleed you, but he also makes you less able to staunch the bleeding. Which you do with herbs, which are very good to have in the cove for the curios. Very nice!

Another point in favor of debuffs is that self-buffs in the game are quite lame by default, because of action economy - having a monster waste a turn buffing another monster is often a really bad move for it, but applying a debuff which might help the other guy (or itself) as part of an attack, that does seem to work.

It would be interesting to see more enemies with 2 moves, one of which is always used to just buff, debuff or push something, though, too many things are tacked onto attacks as things stand, and the lack of enemies with 2 moves is making stun spam seriously overpowering.

[h0b0king]

Originally posted by Fennec Faux:

Basically my main gripe is that most debuffs exist to make the game more punishing without good reason, cultist brawlers increas stress damage, but it's not needed, acolytes stressful incantation is threatening enough

Many players don't think that though - this is just a complaint about diffiuclty, and while it's perfectly legitimate to say "I find the game difficult and wish it was easier" trying to buttress that subjective sense with the arguemnet that difficulty one dislikes is somehow "fake" and "punishing without good reason" seems rather polemical.

I appreciate that to make the game harder the monsters got some synergistic debuffs rather then across the board increases. Remember herbs can remove debuffs, and you quickly know where a debuff is coming from which makes targeting more important. With the cultist example - increased stress is far less important a debuff when ther are no enemy stress dealers, but when there are and you know you can't take them down that round, it may be worth stunning or killing the debuffer instead.

Same with spiders. Now I always killer the spitters first, but there's a case to be made for removing the mark with an arbalest or killer the webbers (not a good case, but it's an option). Simply increasing the raw damage of spiders or the raw stress damage of cult witches might have a similar effect on difficulty,but seems to me a far less interesting way to effect difficulty.

[Answulf]

I pretty much agree with the others - what started off as a strong point about verisimilitude turned into a weak point about difficulty.

It may not be your ideal way to deal with debuffs, but worth pointing out that there are several ways to help protect against them, too - character abilities, trinkets, quirks and Holy Water. So if you feel debuffs bug you more than normal, you could put greater emphasis/value on combating them directly.

[Nemo, Forevermore]

Some of the debuffs really don't make much sense, but I would disagree with the Web/Blight debuff. Someone caught up in spider webbing would have a much harder time avoiding a venom inject. I do feel that certain debuff chances should not even roll unless another effect was not resisted (i.e. -Blight Resist should not be rolled unless the Stun succeeds or +Stress Dmg should not be rolled unless Bleed succeeds). This would at least allow a person with high stun resist to completely brush off webbing attacks. This would make the mechanics more interesting.

I just created a discussion to offer some suggestions for Debuff Removal being added to certain class skills. I was always surprised the Hellion doesn't have a way to remove the debuffs she accumulates with half her skills. Add even more debuffs from enemies and you get some nasty effects in later difficulties.

I also expect a lot of people to chime in about how this game is easy once you learn to cheese mechanics and people just need to "Git Gud", so I also want to suggest that Red Hook should add another level of difficulty like Expert Mode or Madness Mode if you are looking for a title with some spice.

[Ghin]

TL;DR Bring herbs.