Hellion, am I missing something?

[Timmy the Tooth]

Is it just me, or is hellion extremely meh? I typically run her with either Heavens Hairpin and Legendary bracer, or Focus ring/legendary. She just seems to completely suck. Often misses (no acc quirks) but when she hits, does pretty crap damage. I have her running iron swan to clear out that back row as that's what I've read her biggest use is, and she NEVER does much damage back there. Heck she has just done 10 damage in a row my last 4 uses of it..at level 6. I feel like my antiquarian does more damage..

[Khan Boyzitbig of Mercia]

Something isn't right there, I've had few issues with hellions and mostly due to them being rather squishy compared to other frontliners.

Check if you have any major debuffs on them as hellions will debuff themselves with some abilities.

[Timmy the Tooth]

Tippler, bloodthirsty, dipsomania, winded, claustrophobia
Nothing that should affect her damage or acc. Base stats are all in the white. Skills and Wep/arm are all fully upgraded

[RopeDrink]

Often misses (no acc quirks)

A measly +10 ACC (on a hero who starts at 85 baseline) will come into question at the whiff of DODGE. It's serviceable, but if you're worried about missing, it's time to grab some more.

When she hits, does pretty crap damage

She has a paltry 2-4 | 3-7 damage deficit compared to a Leper -- compensated by a broader range of trinkets/stats and a far more flexible kit, with only her movement or bleed skills having variable damage mods. Her damage is perfectly fine.

Heck she has just done 10 damage in a row my last 4 uses of it..at level 6. I feel like my antiquarian does more damage..

Her baseline is 10-19 at max level (Iron Swan = 0% damage mod), and you claim to be using damage trinkets, so to hit 4x10s in a row, you're either hitting PROT (which is rare for R4), affected by quirks, or the memory is cheating.

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Not saying she's the best hero in the world, but she's got one of the higher-end baselines with a good stall kit, self-sustain, and access to most ranks from her prime position - so you can do infinitely worse than take a HEL in a lot of cases.

I would never take her solely for Iron Swan (as back-rank projection is more of a team effort, not a sole hero job) -- but if you do, then all you have to do is check the baseline, consider ACC/DODGE (or PROT), and do a little maths to see why she's hitting low in that instance.

Ultimately, she's a solid hero - and one of the four heroes who make the best Court stomping team in the game, but if she's just there to tap Iron Swan, then she's easily replaceable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1QNyN8aDCY

[Timmy the Tooth]

Could have been prot that fight, it was the collector (which we barely took out and had 3 DeathDoors because of her inadequacy). The next fight she hit a 13 against the witch.. I am sure it's just really bad RNG, but if a back row hitter can't take out the back row in 2 turns, wtf are they even in for?

[RopeDrink]

if a back row hitter can't take out the back row in 2 turns, wtf are they even in for?

Respectfully, one should consider not putting all backline eggs into a single 4-6 SPD basket and letting it survive long enough to eat two Swans. That's just asking for trouble.

Again, projection is more of a team effort. Sure, it's nice that she can hit R4, but if that's all you're focusing on, then you'd be better served by faster heroes rather than a HEL.

Failing that, you're still hitting R4 with 6-12 > 10-19 damage, not including quirks and trinkets, which is not bad by any means, but it's still below-average speed, thus not the best "dedicated R4 blaster" option, especially not by itself.

Her main selling point is not Iron Swan by itself, but rather, being able to hit EVERY position from R1 with good baseline numbers -- R1/R2 (0%), R3 (-35% / -50%), and R4 (0%), and she also retains decent viability when moved backwards. As such, she is one of the best front-rank 'turret' heroes, along with a broad range of viable trinkets to fluff it up even more.

To hit 4x10s in a row, you'd have to Swan with no +DMG and roll the lowest number repeatedly, or hit enough PROT to negate +DMG trinkets and quirks, which is unlikely.

Personally, I use HEL's in Bleed comps, which means she's there to smash R4 (IS), R3 (IIB), provide stalling via R1/R2 (Yawp), and either looking after herself (Adrenaline) or slapping front liners upside the head with +20% BO's.

Of all her buttons, Swan is one of the least used, because the other three will typically have it dead or controlled before a Hellion can act, so she's either there to finish off a straggler, stall/sustain, or bruise whatever's still alive after the opener.

[Khan Boyzitbig of Mercia]

The Collector isn't a squishy r4, nor is the Hag, if you knew you would be going against an R4 boss you shouldn't be relying on just the Hellion.

Most backline enemies will actually die in 1-2 hits from a Hellion, but not (mini)bosses.

[Timmy the Tooth]

The witches I were referencing weren't the boss hag. Sorry I can see why that was confusing, my bad. Just regular old hall fight stress witches.
I never go in without at least 2 people that can hit that back row. I was going after hag so I decided to use a suggested team of Mus/Occ/BH/Hel. BH or Occ would mark (they had similar speed), Hel would swan, Mus would aimed shot. If that Mus didn't roll a high hit or crit, it was rolling into next turn with 0 kills and typically that back row was getting at least 2 stress hits off (along with every other enemy getting a turn). If the hellion missed, we started to struggle. So it would routinely take me 4-5 character actions to take out that back row with this team.
I don't usually use this comp, but I was heading in to finish the lvl 5 hag and read this comp was the best.

[RopeDrink]

Mark strategies have their fans, but I would generally dissuade players from using them, and I certainly wouldn't call that particular team 'the best' at dunking Hags. Any standard DoT team would have a much easier time (with far less effort involved).

MUS, BH and HEL are below-average in speed -- typically equal (or slower) than the boss, which has two turns per round, thus your marks fade quicker - not to mention losing heroes via the pot, making it worse.

When I take HEL's to the Hag, it's to pump the boss full of IIBleeds and let her melt to death.

[Timmy the Tooth]

I can't argue with you Rope. It was my first time using that team and I figured I'd go with it because it was the one suggested in a boss guide here on steam.
I am going through all the level 5 bosses before I try the DD. The one I did right before this was the wall and I took PD, Hound, Abom, Flag (also from that guide) and WOW, they cleared the floor with EVERYTHING on the way and then just MELTED that wall. On the way to boss PD stunning back row, abom stunning 1 or 2 or tossing puke here and there (all landing against the pigs thanks to class stun trinket) with Flag burning back and tossing a heal if needed. Might be my new favorite non ruins party.
Edit: I think it was because I just ran this party before the one for hag that the disparity is what bugged me. Same guide for boss suggestions, one group dominated and one group seemed to have what felt like a weak link in the Hellion.

[RopeDrink]

Might be my new favorite non ruins party.

A lot of that power can be attributed to the typical stun-meta, with PD and ABM being some of the best at it -- and rest assured that bleed comps work fine in the Ruins too.

Once again, regarding back-rank nukes and control, you're typically better off with faster options -- sometimes even a GR or HWM with TDag or PShot for less overall damage. Little can survive two moderate pokes (unless it's a boss, mini-boss, or certain niche battles), and hitting faster generally works out better than merely hitting harder.

However, very little can compare to double-stunning the (typically) most important half of the battlefield as a fight opener, and Plague Doctor is the type of hero who can elevate garbage comps into being serviceable (even if you take that stun away from her).

It's always nice to have access to buttons like Iron Swan, but overall, it's one of the slower and more limited options, so she's not the best at that one specific task.

[MoraedoN]

some heroes just dont click for you. I wont blame you if you dont like hellion
but saying your antiquarian deals more damage than your hellion is just wrong.
Hellion surely has low crit rate compare to HWM but she can do other stuffs, she is good to bleed and against bleeding stuff, she is also a versatile frontliner unlike leper
overall I would agree if you say she is jack of all trades but master at none. if you really dont like her then you should find other frontliner that is match for you

[RopeDrink]

Originally posted by MoraedoN:

saying your antiquarian deals more damage than your hellion is just wrong.

The OP's exact words were:
"I feel like my antiquarian does more damage..."

They didn't say Antiquarians actually DO more damage (thankfully).

Originally posted by MoraedoN:

Hellion surely has low crit rate compare to HWM but she can do other stuffs, she is good to bleed and against bleeding stuff, she is also a versatile frontliner unlike leper
overall I would agree if you say she is jack of all trades but master at none. if you really dont like her then you should find other frontliner that is match for you

Compared to most front-line "turrets", HEL has far more range, flexibility and usage - while still retaining high baseline damage - cementing her as one of the best overall bruisers.

Her main selling point is being able to hit EVERY position from R1 with good baselines -- while also retaining decent viability even when moved out of her prime position. Even if you play her in R2 or R3, she can still chunk 75% of the battlefield, and if surprised, shuffled, or moved OOP, her mobility works from as far back as R4, as does her self-sustain, so you typically won't be crippled during such emergencies.

She deals decent raw, can easily slot into bleed comps (which are stupidly strong), can top herself up, and is one of the most solid heroes overall. If you treat her purely as a Swan Bot, she becomes infinitely more replaceable (compared to using her as an R1-R3 bruiser/bleeder).

[Timmy the Tooth]

The antiq comment was sarcasm, hence the use of the word feel. I don't think my 6 damage dagger hits are harder than the hellion...
Anyway, I'm going to stick to using her in bleed groups from here on out.

[Alex Darkcrowne]

Her Damage against Bleeding targets is kinda nutty.
Solid damage overall outside of that, around Crusader's.
Her CoM trinket is one of the best.

She can hit all slots. Has decent survivability.
Doesn't get crippled by shuffles.
Self-heal which also clears DoTs.
One of only two double stuns in the game.
Good camp skills.

[Timmy the Tooth]

Yes yes, good point on the CoM trinket Alex. I was actually saving to pick that up next. I have Abom's, SB's, and HWM's. It really opened up Abom for me in terms of enjoying the class, so I will see how hellions works out.