Darkest Dungeon®

Darkest Dungeon®

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Archgoose Jun 5, 2021 @ 4:31pm
Reminded Why I Quit Playing Darkest Dungeon
So I saw a streamer playing Darkest Dungeon and was enthralled by the new classes modders had introduced to the game, so I came back and started a new game. Everything was going awesome, I was thoroughly enjoy the new classes, everything was going great until I decided to try my first Medium challenge. Then all that came to a crashing halt and I got a harsh reminder of why I stopped playing Darkest Dungeon. Went into the mission with my strongest crew, equipment and skills upgraded as far as I could, proper trinkets for each member, with a damage and stress reduction buff from the previous mission no less, and my squad was just absolutely decimated in three battles. When my strongest character died, I literally just closed the game. So infuriating. This game has absolutely ridiculous power curves, and while I know some people will claim "That's the point", I hate it, I absolutely hate it, and this experience completely ruined the game for me. Green missions are now boringly easy, I've defeated all the Green bosses, and if I have to slowly grind away at Green missions for who knows how long just so I can even think of doing a Medium mission then screw that, I have other games to play with faster payoffs for enjoyment. If Red Hook wants me to invest more time in their game they need to make that mid game entry much much much less punishing.
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No One Jun 5, 2021 @ 5:49pm 
Most of that didn't happen in reality, only in your mind.

You can't solve it because trying to address the hallucinations will not have much effect on the logically-unrelated real world.

I agree though. Your hallucinations do sound like a terrible game.
Gilmoy Jun 5, 2021 @ 7:23pm 
How the heck do you lose 1 hero in a Veteran (L3) dungeon?
I suspect you are not ready for Champion (L5)s, either.

Don't say "upgraded as far as I could".
Say "upgraded to the maximum level allowed". That is what you "can". That's the standard. Always do that first.

It's easily(*) feasible to keep your Blacksmith, Guild, gold, and your 1st 4 L3s all upgraded to L3 everything, with 0 "extra" weeks needed for grinding. The L1 => L2 => L3 costs are pretty mild. (* using Antiquarians properly, maximizing curios, minimizing supply wastage, etc.)

The L4 => L5 jump does outpace your usual gold income, so you may need to park your first four L5 heroes for several weeks to cover the gap. Beating all eight L3 bosses with your B and C teams (more than) suffices. So you can grind bosses, or grind random dungeons. But it sounds like you haven't reached that milestone yet.

Never, ever enter a dungeon with any of your hero gear or skills underleveled.
Pay to upgrade them to the level of the dungeon.
Park them in a nursing home for however many weeks it takes to afford that.
Then streamline your play so that it takes 0 extra weeks to afford that.
RopeDrink Jun 5, 2021 @ 8:27pm 
Hardest part of the game is week 1-5 (give or take a variable amount of extra weeks depending on luck). Realistically, it stops once you start pushing towards multiple level 2 heroes who can stomp all over Novice dungeons and/or you build a solid collection of trinkets to give lower-level heroes the pep to bypass that. So, it's different per run -- but the very first 5 weeks are the hardest regardless due to having limited-to-no hamlet features.

Veteran provides a mini-spike because it is the opening of a new dungeon tier where your heroes no longer over-level or over-gear the dungeon (outside of any aid provided by trinkets and pre-embark buffs), but this is also smooshed by hitting level 4 and/or by above-mentioned trinket collection. By the time you can delve into Veteran, you should already have a solid page of trinkets to pep up the poor level 3's (who absolutely should be upgraded as much as humanly possible).

Champion is the main spike as you no longer out-level/gear content anymore, but similar rules apply. It's infinitely harder diving into Champion with level 5's than it is level 6's, particularly if - like any dungeon tier - you're doing it without max possible upgrades of all kinds.

Basically, your first few runs into a new dungeon tier are some of the most important because there's a mini-hurdle to overcome, but the veteran spike really isn't all that big.

The true difficulty is snuffing the torch.

EDIT: The above doesn't go into other important details, like the comps you're using. Anyone aware of the dangers will be pushing for any advantage they can get during the initial spikes, including a solid comp with proper trinkets and max possible upgrades. Doing so renders the spike as minimal as possible.

If you're being mopped around within the few few battles of a new tier, you're doing something very wrong -- especially if you didn't consider the beautiful retreat button to save your investments.

If Red Hook wants me to invest more time in their game they need to make that mid game entry much much much less punishing.

Given the marketing involves mention of difficulty, punishment, lack of hand-holding, etc, that aint gonna happen. Meanwhile, people who've put in the time to dissect the game will tell you that (a) they are not having your experience and (b) the game is actually too easy despite said marketing.
Last edited by RopeDrink; Jun 5, 2021 @ 8:38pm
Archgoose Jun 5, 2021 @ 9:57pm 
Originally posted by Gilmoy:
How the heck do you lose 1 hero in a Veteran (L3) dungeon?
I suspect you are not ready for Champion (L5)s, either.

Don't say "upgraded as far as I could".
Say "upgraded to the maximum level allowed". That is what you "can". That's the standard. Always do that first.

It's easily(*) feasible to keep your Blacksmith, Guild, gold, and your 1st 4 L3s all upgraded to L3 everything, with 0 "extra" weeks needed for grinding. The L1 => L2 => L3 costs are pretty mild. (* using Antiquarians properly, maximizing curios, minimizing supply wastage, etc.)

The L4 => L5 jump does outpace your usual gold income, so you may need to park your first four L5 heroes for several weeks to cover the gap. Beating all eight L3 bosses with your B and C teams (more than) suffices. So you can grind bosses, or grind random dungeons. But it sounds like you haven't reached that milestone yet.

Never, ever enter a dungeon with any of your hero gear or skills underleveled.
Pay to upgrade them to the level of the dungeon.
Park them in a nursing home for however many weeks it takes to afford that.
Then streamline your play so that it takes 0 extra weeks to afford that.

What do you mean by a nursing home?

In the doomed run I had two L4's and two L3's. They had lvl 2 Gear and lvl 2 Skills (as that's as far as I've been able to upgrade the Guild Hall and Blacksmith so far given the heirlooms I've collected). I was rolling with mostly Rare, one Ancestral, and a few Uncommon trinkets.

I take issue with the game saying that the run is intended for Lvl 3 but then even Lvl 4's get utterly destroyed.

Like, look, you guys seem like you're really hardcore players with all your terms and such, but I'm not. I'm a casual gamer, I like my games to high five me and tell me how awesome I am. If I want a problem to solve, then I'll go to work. I use games as a way to relieve stress, not generate it. I'm not looking for a challenge in my gaming, I'm looking to have fun and stomp things. I love the aesthetics of this game, and I've always been an advocate of creating multiple different difficulty levels so everyone can enjoy what they want. If you want to deal with a meat grinder, then have at'er with a higher difficulty, but if you're like me and you just want to have fun romping through the game world slaughtering every eldritch terror that looks at you cross, then I don't see why that's such a blasphemy. Just let me have my fun. That's all I ask.
Drokmon Jun 6, 2021 @ 1:50am 
Originally posted by Archgoose:
What do you mean by a nursing home?

In the doomed run I had two L4's and two L3's. They had lvl 2 Gear and lvl 2 Skills (as that's as far as I've been able to upgrade the Guild Hall and Blacksmith so far given the heirlooms I've collected). I was rolling with mostly Rare, one Ancestral, and a few Uncommon trinkets.

I take issue with the game saying that the run is intended for Lvl 3 but then even Lvl 4's get utterly destroyed.

Like, look, you guys seem like you're really hardcore players with all your terms and such, but I'm not. I'm a casual gamer, I like my games to high five me and tell me how awesome I am. If I want a problem to solve, then I'll go to work. I use games as a way to relieve stress, not generate it. I'm not looking for a challenge in my gaming, I'm looking to have fun and stomp things. I love the aesthetics of this game, and I've always been an advocate of creating multiple different difficulty levels so everyone can enjoy what they want. If you want to deal with a meat grinder, then have at'er with a higher difficulty, but if you're like me and you just want to have fun romping through the game world slaughtering every eldritch terror that looks at you cross, then I don't see why that's such a blasphemy. Just let me have my fun. That's all I ask.

You'll want at least Lvl 3 gear and skills before starting veteran runs.

As the difficulty ramps up, you'll find fewer runs that you can complete as handily as apprentice ones. Long champion runs, for instance, can see success but you're team comes hobbling back on Death's Door and on the verge of a heart attack. This is quite normal.

I feel you on the fun factor that you described. Sadly, this game is not based around that particular fun factor. Something like Deep Sky Derelicts might work better for you (similar gameplay in some regards, reversible death mechanics, you can more easily build a ROFLstomp-worthy team, etc).
Archgoose Jun 6, 2021 @ 9:19am 
Just out of curiosity are there any mods that decrease the game's difficulty? If there is not, could there be?
Gilmoy Jun 6, 2021 @ 12:19pm 
Originally posted by Archgoose:
1. What do you mean by a nursing home?

2. In the doomed run I had two L4's and two L3's. They had lvl 2 Gear and lvl 2 Skills ...
<yoda>Around the survivors, a perimeter create.</yoda>

2. L4 doesn't matter. Your L4 fights like an L2 because (s)he had only L2 gear and skills.
For all intents, she is L2. That's what you paid for, and that's whom you brought.

L2 dies in L3 dungeon, shame on dungeon.
You bring L2s into an L3 dungeon, shame on you.

The simplest fix is to abstain from all L3 Veteran missions for a few weeks. Leave your L3/L4 heroes idle in your hamlet. (That's the #1 "nursing home": just leave them idle.) Take other junior roster members through more L1 Apprentice missions, prioritize the heirlooms you need (that means you discard the others), repeat until you fully upgrade Blacksmith and Guild to L3. Yes, this means you must build and manage several teams of different levels.

Even with poor emphasis on your early heirlooms, this phase lasts only 6-10 extra weeks. So that's "all" the extra patience you need. With a bit of foresight and planning, you can shrink this phase to +0 extra weeks, i.e. your Guild/Blacksmith + gold supplies keep pace with your top 4 heroes so that they all reach L3 simultaneously.

It goes without saying that, every week, you bring home enough gold profit to fully upgrade next week's team. That's not hard. Fill up your entire pack with 16 slots of the highest-value loot you find (and discard all other loot), never bring home any low-value store supply, and you should easily net 6-8 slots of gold or gems = 6 * 1.75k = 10.5k + the mission's fixed gold reward of about 3k. So each week costs ~4k in supplies to earn ~12k + 6 slots of heirlooms, and that pays for next week's team. (Later, with 1 Antiquarian, you could routinely bring back 3k + (6 * 2.5k) + (20 * 0.5k) from Antiquarian's artifacts = 28.0k. That doesn't make you rich, but it does let you play in the medium league of paying for 4-6 Sanitarium slots every week. In a way, that is being rich.)

~~~~~~~~

DD is not a casual, one-off, pinball or solitaire game. It does not exist for you to curb-stomp it. It was designed to be a despairing, horror-filled, mind-numbing grind, which makes you suffer. That was its original lure, its gimmick to differentiate itself from all other games on Steam. It's meant to cause you pain. That's exactly why we die-hards love it. If all you want is to run around, kill everything, and have game pat you on back, DD is maybe one of the worst games you could choose.

Stepping back a bit, I find that I agree with your OP: You shouldn't play DD for that. DD plays you to pat itself.

More deeply, and more to the point, every time a new player like you cries: "I died because it's TOO HAAAAAAAARD", Redhook devs pat themselves on the back, and say with glee, "YISS IT WORKS". They will never change the game to cater to you. They love that their game killed another gamer. That was their design intent and sales pitch, and they are perpetually delighted that their formula keeps working.

Ergo, elevate yourself to beat this game, or choose another game.
We can help you with the first part.
Last edited by Gilmoy; Jun 6, 2021 @ 12:21pm
No One Jun 6, 2021 @ 12:27pm 
Originally posted by Archgoose:
Just out of curiosity are there any mods that decrease the game's difficulty? If there is not, could there be?
Don't need mods, it's in the options menu.

Can turn off corpses, stalling, DD debuffs, crits, and make retreat automatic.
Gilmoy Jun 6, 2021 @ 12:37pm 
Originally posted by Drokmon:
Long champion runs, for instance, can see success but [your] team comes hobbling back on Death's Door and on the verge of a heart attack. This is quite normal.
No, it's not. Normal is that you come back from long Champion dungeons with 0 damage and single-digit stress. Accumulating either kind of damage is not normal. Heal all of it at the end of every fight (or don't take the damage in the first place), and the only stress you bring home is from walking corridors after the last fight, since there was no more fight to heal it.

This scales up. If you can do 1 long Champion run with 0 damage and nigh-0 stress, you can do 20 of them in a row. We do exactly this to unlock and finish the 8 L5 bosses, if you have the completionist urge.

The sole exception is if the L5 dungeon spawns a Shambler's Altar, and you choose to fight it near last. Shambler's little spores will stack some stress on you before you win, and if this is nearly the last fight in the dungeon, you don't have enough easy L5 fights :steamhappy: remaining to heal your stress down to 0. Then it's acceptable to bring back ~100 stress each, and pay in town. Actually killing the L5 Shambler is not hard (or if it is, improve team until it isn't). Macaroni-and-cheesy trick: Shambler always shuffles your party, so pre-shuffle yourself into reverse order, and laugh as it unshuffles you, then win.
Last edited by Gilmoy; Jun 6, 2021 @ 12:37pm
Qilue Jun 6, 2021 @ 1:39pm 
Originally posted by Archgoose:
Like, look, you guys seem like you're really hardcore players with all your terms and such, but I'm not. I'm a casual gamer, I like my games to high five me and tell me how awesome I am. If I want a problem to solve, then I'll go to work. I use games as a way to relieve stress, not generate it. I'm not looking for a challenge in my gaming, I'm looking to have fun and stomp things...

I feel you :) But you choose wrong game for relieve stress hehe
It's easy game but you need to accept this percent chance.
One time u can have clear run and another you wipe on 1 or secound battle in the dungeon.
With good preparation u can withstand more but u never know when happen miss fest and your enemy use it ruthlessly :P
One and best adwice is to know when u should run ;)
Then u should have more fun, but still this sudden turn of events slowly destroy your sanity anyway :D It's fun but the same time super annoying game :)
RopeDrink Jun 6, 2021 @ 6:43pm 
With good preparation u can withstand more but u never know when happen miss fest

Accuracy is a thing. There are very few 'miss-fests' when you're stacking it - which you should be. If you're not, you can't complain about heroes not hitting things.

This ties back to the earlier point about the first 5 weeks, because your heroes are at their lowest possible level, have next-to-no trinkets (if any), and you lack hamlet features to at least upgrade or cherry-pick your skills for more accuracy and/or synergy, not to mention lacking heroes to form good comps - and the one's you do get are randomized with none of the above aids.

Alas, the OP has since admitted to walking into Veteran with level 2 skills, meaning lower accuracy, lower potencies, and if the gear wasn't upgraded either, far less survivability -- and probably no good trinkets either due to rushing. Can't exactly blame the game when doing such things. It'd be like cutting your leg off before a football match and then claiming the match was unfair when other people run circles around you. Easier to blame the other players than to admit you might need a prosthetic at the very least.

I like my games to high five me and tell me how awesome I am.

Recommend looking a little deeper into games before buying, then. Don't know about you, but I don't buy rogue-likes expecting back-slapping and commendations - I do so expecting it to kick my backside and make me work for my victories. Having said that, Darkest Dungeon is by far the easiest roguelike I've played to date.
Last edited by RopeDrink; Jun 6, 2021 @ 6:59pm
Panfilo Jun 7, 2021 @ 10:40am 
The fact that your skills were only level 2 was the problem.

Weapon, armor, and skills should all be at the max rank for a given hero level. The resolve level contributes comparatively little; +10% to resists/level. Weapons are a bit better, +1 or 2 damage, +1% base crit, and every other upgrade gives a valuable +1 speed. Armor is a decent boost too; +5 dodge, and +2-5hp per upgrade.

But ability rank is by far the most important, because it governs most support skills and most importantly, base accuracy. Neglecting this has the biggest impact going into veteran and champion dungeons, which is why it's so important to upgrade it as soon as you can.

This is also why I spend a good long while keeping my heroes lvl 2 if possible-because if I can't upgrade their skills to rank 4 then they aren't ready for veteran dungeons yet, and if I lack the portraits and money to unlock the upgrades then I need to make that a priority in apprentice missions.
Vic 20 Jun 8, 2021 @ 11:28am 
Originally posted by Archgoose:
Originally posted by Gilmoy:
How the heck do you lose 1 hero in a Veteran (L3) dungeon?
I suspect you are not ready for Champion (L5)s, either.

Don't say "upgraded as far as I could".
Say "upgraded to the maximum level allowed". That is what you "can". That's the standard. Always do that first.

It's easily(*) feasible to keep your Blacksmith, Guild, gold, and your 1st 4 L3s all upgraded to L3 everything, with 0 "extra" weeks needed for grinding. The L1 => L2 => L3 costs are pretty mild. (* using Antiquarians properly, maximizing curios, minimizing supply wastage, etc.)

The L4 => L5 jump does outpace your usual gold income, so you may need to park your first four L5 heroes for several weeks to cover the gap. Beating all eight L3 bosses with your B and C teams (more than) suffices. So you can grind bosses, or grind random dungeons. But it sounds like you haven't reached that milestone yet.

Never, ever enter a dungeon with any of your hero gear or skills underleveled.
Pay to upgrade them to the level of the dungeon.
Park them in a nursing home for however many weeks it takes to afford that.
Then streamline your play so that it takes 0 extra weeks to afford that.

What do you mean by a nursing home?

In the doomed run I had two L4's and two L3's. They had lvl 2 Gear and lvl 2 Skills (as that's as far as I've been able to upgrade the Guild Hall and Blacksmith so far given the heirlooms I've collected). I was rolling with mostly Rare, one Ancestral, and a few Uncommon trinkets.

I take issue with the game saying that the run is intended for Lvl 3 but then even Lvl 4's get utterly destroyed.

Like, look, you guys seem like you're really hardcore players with all your terms and such, but I'm not. I'm a casual gamer, I like my games to high five me and tell me how awesome I am. If I want a problem to solve, then I'll go to work. I use games as a way to relieve stress, not generate it. I'm not looking for a challenge in my gaming, I'm looking to have fun and stomp things. I love the aesthetics of this game, and I've always been an advocate of creating multiple different difficulty levels so everyone can enjoy what they want. If you want to deal with a meat grinder, then have at'er with a higher difficulty, but if you're like me and you just want to have fun romping through the game world slaughtering every eldritch terror that looks at you cross, then I don't see why that's such a blasphemy. Just let me have my fun. That's all I ask.

So you bought the wrong game for you and are seemingly seeking an argument over something that is entirely your fault?
No One Jun 8, 2021 @ 1:40pm 
Most have difficulty killing all the apprentice bosses without levelling everyone to 3. It's hardly impossible to do so, but it's not a natural way to play.

Levelling to 3 doesn't take 'who knows how long' it takes 3 and a half long missions, starting from 0. If all the apprentice bosses are already dead, this will 100% provide enough heirlooms to get level 3 upgrades. If you have more than one party then it should be much shorter.

Veteran missions are easier, rather than harder, than apprentice missions. ("Medium" refers to length, not difficulty.) You can tailor your parties, they don't have to go in at level 2, and you (should have) trinkets. That is, unless you go in underlevelled.

If you think the game is hard, maybe try getting stuff to 3 before going into level 3 missions. Is this difficult? It seems fairly obvious to me. Don't handicap yourself and then get mad at the game for your own actions?

Even going in underlevelled isn't a big deal unless you don't know what you're doing. DD was a game of attrition five years ago, but it isn't anymore. If your party is suffering attrition (and you're not playing in pitch black) then that's a player problem, not a game problem. If you find apprentice missions boring but don't know how to play yet, that is a player problem, not a game problem. In particular, it means you think there's too many 4v4 battles in this 4v4 battle game. It is better to play games you like rather than games you don't like.

By the way, if someone dies, it is always the case that you should have retreated several turns before that. It does not take great insight to realize you're losing the fight. You can try to RNG it out if you want, but it's better to start retreating before you take death door checks. Especially if you find hero loss to be very painful, as OP does.

It should be impossible to have all the apprentice bosses dead and have only one party (which just suffered a loss). Though in any case trying to max out barracks capacity is a good idea. E.g. you can use a second party to gather cash to upgrade/prepare a first party. Also, more characters means more party variety, which prevents the game getting monotonous.

There's also the possibility of real bad RNG. It does happen, occasionally. Maybe it would have been fine to just try a second time.

Finally you can read the spoiler guide and play on easy mode instead. Skip all the fun learning and simply tediously apply the best strategies.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2065003292
Archgoose Jun 9, 2021 @ 5:18am 
So I went and played a game of Civ VI, I'm almost done with that, that calmed me down quite a bit, and now I'm preparing myself for a return to the Hamlet.

As for this thread for the most part I've been ignoring a great deal of the comments, as I find them at best unhelpful and at worst straight up rude, but for the rest I have gleaned some valuable insight from them.

For example, I am willing to admit that I overreached, I was overambitious and overeager, and that overconfidence led to disaster. I still feel the game has some blame to take, it should be made more clear that (Lvl 3) means lvl 3 in Skills and Equipment not Lvl 3 in character level.

To answer some questions: Yes, I have defeated all the beginner bosses (including the Farmstead) and I found them very easy. I attribute that to using Modded Classes that made many of the battles trivial and having played Darkest Dungeon before I am familiar with the bosses and what teams to bring to bear against them, so the battles were surprisingly easy. I also suspect that using the expanded Barracks mod (in order to allow the representation of all the modded classes) probably slowed my game progression as I'm unsure how you all are getting your heirlooms so quickly. I'll post what week I'm in and what progression my buildings are upgraded to, but I don't see how you could be Lvl 3 ready in the first 6 weeks, and before anyone says anything every dungeon I work to fully clear and I never leave an Heirloom behind (gold is easier to come by so I will leave gold behind before I'll leave any Heirloom).

Finally, I will say again that I'm not saying that the game should be made easy for everyone. If there's one thing I despise it's people making rude comments about that. What I'm saying is that for hardcore players they should be allowed to keep their difficulty, but for casual players there should be difficulty modes designed for them, like so many other games have. That way you can still brag about beating the game on Nightmare while we can say we had a blast playing on Beginner. Take Civ VI for example, they have difficulties ranging from Chieftain to Deity, and I've never played anything above King. I love that game, and I respect watching streamers who play it on Deity, but that's not for me, and I'm glad the makers of Civ recognize that both casual and hardcore gamers are markets equally worth courting, and I commend them for doing such. Games that specifically cater to hardcore markets I feel are losing out on a huge market share and a lot of possible sales. I did not buy the wrong game, I knew what Darkest Dungeon was when I bought it, like I said I love the art, the aesthetic, the mechanics, the only thing I dislike is the difficulty, and I have applauded every add-on they introduced to make the game easier. I give the developers money because I like the concept of their product, and in doing so that permits me to also say what I wish about that product, and make suggestions on how to improve it. If you, a fellow purchaser of the product, can't handle that then that's fair, you're entitled to your opinion, but know it's not going to change mine, so I would recommend saving your time rather than waste your words.
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Date Posted: Jun 5, 2021 @ 4:31pm
Posts: 114