Why Grave Robber is such a weak class ?

[Juadeirla]

Why is Grave Robber such a weak class still after all these years. Pure DD class without support and cannot do more damage than others. I will take Houndmaster instead of Graverobber in every situations - he can heal himself, he can stress heal a group (!), He have a stun, DOTs and he can do the same damage as Grave Robber and target every enemy position and he can guard. Whats the point of Grave Robber if Houdmaster already exist and he is so much better?

Grave Robber is a weak class, pure dd with average damage without utility, overshadowed by others still after all this years. She needs a rebalance. Even arbalest can at least heal someone. Even shieldbreaker becomes a good class. She needs a stun ablity at least.

[spaceweezle]

I'm not personally a fan of relying on rng based types of mitigation, especially when the game already imposes enough of that on you by default, And especially when I know full-well how inherently evil rng systems are.

But I have recently observed how effective dodge can be, at least in the early-game. I had been stacking HP and Prot on my teams for the longest time, essentially because my team compositions demanded it. So I had a really good sample size for observing <0 dodge progression- 70 odd hours of gameplay.

Then today I decided to switch around -dodge trinkets to dodge trinkets on my Hellion and Vestal for one particular encounter. Effectively going from 0 or a deficit to 14-18 dodge. I was pretty impressed with the results. Over the course of several dungeons I'd estimate a 300% increase in dodged attacks, which worked wonders for the boss encounter alone.

Conversely, my Leper and Crusader were getting hit consistently but for inconsequential amounts of damage, but this is also relative to their HP pool. The Prophets Rubble was doing 7-10 damage from a 50hp pool, but when My Vestal eventually got hit it was for 20 odd damage out of 32hp- this kind of thing scares me, as does running squishy heroes that only synergize with dodge defence.

I can only see this getting worse for max level dungeons. The utter reliance on rng to dictate whether a hero get's one-shot or doesn't suffer a scratch doesn't sit well with me. I wouldn't go as far to say that dodge isn't viable, but I would say that HP and Prot seems more consistent and is possibly safer. But the choice between either seems to be largely dictated by which heroes you run.

As for the Graverobber, I actually like her mechanics. I would love to give her a try but my roster is full of my usual suspects.

[Skinny Pete]

Escrito originalmente por spaceweezle:

As for the Graverobber, I actually like her mechanics. I would love to give her a try but my roster is full of my usual suspects.

While I obviously don't mind having high dodge, GR's real strength is in the ability to act first and quite often kill an enemy before they can do anything. That, which often happens, gets me halfway to my first round goal of killing two enemies before anything happens.

If in the second round of a fight it's basically already over, I'm already in recovery phase and can de-stress or heal up if, for instance, I got clobbered last fight. But if you focus on high ACC, high SPD, and damage when appropriate (i.e. against the specific mooks of the kind of dungeon you are in), this won't happen often.

Lunge is probably the best attack in the game that can't hit rank 4. That's its only real weakness.

[No One]

For some reason DD doesn't roll an accuracy check for each target of an AOE. It rolls once and then compares the same roll to everyone's dodge.

[RopeDrink]

Escrito originalmente por FlintX:

Since the "specialist" negationist there didn't even bothered to watch more than 3 seconds.

Your video reaffirms more of my points than it rebukes. You're 100% focused on trying to prove that dodge is consistent (with stack) >> against the one who said dodge is 'inconsistent without stack', when the real criticism was based on how turn-inefficient it is to stack it in the first place, not how consistent it is when you do or don't.

There's no sense claiming 20~30 dodge is a 'reliable' baseline for X difficulty tier when you had almost double that value and still ate Grouper crits in easy content (which could happen repeatedly) -- and getting there involved more used turns, trinkets and dedicated hero abilities (compared to just stunning or killing the target so that any amount of dodge would become irrelevant with each successful kill/stun). Sure, you can keep going until dodge resembles consistency, or you could, you know, enter a recovery period.

You can win either way, and nobody claimed one or the other was 'better' - but I stand by my view that dodge is inconsistent (without stack) to a point where focusing on it over more commonly used stats is more turn inefficient when dealing with 90% of trash fights.

Escrito originalmente por Skinny Pete:

While I obviously don't mind having high dodge, GR's real strength is in the ability to act first and quite often kill an enemy before they can do anything. That, which often happens, gets me halfway to my first round goal of killing two enemies before anything happens.

If in the second round of a fight it's basically already over, I'm already in recovery phase and can de-stress or heal up if, for instance, I got clobbered last fight. But if you focus on high ACC, high SPD, and damage when appropriate (i.e. against the specific mooks of the kind of dungeon you are in), this won't happen often.

Lunge is probably the best attack in the game that can't hit rank 4. That's its only real weakness.

This is more in-line with what I'm saying.

Dodge trinkets, Trickery, ANT-Vapours, MAA-buffs, high baseline dodge characters -- and even considering ACC debuffs to boot? Been there, done that, still pressing Lunge.

[spaceweezle]

Escrito originalmente por Skinny Pete:

Escrito originalmente por spaceweezle:

As for the Graverobber, I actually like her mechanics. I would love to give her a try but my roster is full of my usual suspects.

While I obviously don't mind having high dodge, GR's real strength is in the ability to act first and quite often kill an enemy before they can do anything. That, which often happens, gets me halfway to my first round goal of killing two enemies before anything happens.

If in the second round of a fight it's basically already over, I'm already in recovery phase and can de-stress or heal up if, for instance, I got clobbered last fight. But if you focus on high ACC, high SPD, and damage when appropriate (i.e. against the specific mooks of the kind of dungeon you are in), this won't happen often.

Lunge is probably the best attack in the game that can't hit rank 4. That's its only real weakness.

I can see Lunge being quite potent despite that restriction, as it's almost always the case to have priority targets in positions 3/4. The only problem seems to be that the GR trades off a lot of utility for a questionable damage output advantage.

I think OP does make a fair point by making a direct comparison to HM. He is not that far behind in damage, yet comes bundled with what most would consider to be the best toolkit in the game.

But I won't actually know if that trade-off is actually worth it until I play her. She strikes me as being the ultimate risk/reward hero, And possibly one that is best used by very experienced players. So perhaps it is best that I don't play her right now lol.

[RopeDrink]

I can see Lunge being quite potent despite that restriction

Lunge is to R3 what Iron Swan is to R4. The damage is very similar and comes from the highest speed hero in the game. The difference is that Lunge can be used on R1-2-3 from R4-3, rather than only on R4 via R1 like Swan, so it's more flexible. Even without increasing GR speed, she will go before a substantial amount of trash enemies by default and comes with high (if not the highest) base crit, not to mention good crit mods in general.

By simply increasing GR's ACC/DAM, even if you neglect increasing her SPD further, you're guaranteed a lot of dead or maimed priorities before a fight even begins - and the less opponents to deal with, the less you have to worry about being hit by something. Compliment that with similar abilities and/or stuns from other heroes and the value of dodge becomes less and less relevant (on top of its already existing failings), especially as the aggressive option requires no ramp-up while the defensive one does. The downside = she's wet paper.

Lunge is one of the primary selling points of a GR even if you neglect the stealth mechanic. The fact she has good dodge and crit is more of a passive a bonus.

I think OP does make a fair point by making a direct comparison to HM.

The closest heroes to GR is HWM and SHB who are in a very similar boat to her statistically and kit-wise >> mobile assassin archetypes who's primary benefits come from moderate-to-high speed (projectable) damage above all else.

I wouldn't compare GR to HM as he's a flat-out generalist who you don't often consider from a raw damage perspective (other than his projection). HM, CRU and FLA are all generalists who fulfill all kinds of things (damage, healing, stress-healing, stunning, guarding, etc), but you rarely take them solely for their damage type. The main reason I personally like HM's is because their single-target stun is really good and they can project against all ranks from the same position. The only thing better is killing the target outright.

Hypothetically -- if you took a GR instead of a HM, you gain more speed and mobility, slightly better accuracy, piercing, optional blight, optional stealth, bigger burst (which HM can't match without biscuit), guaranteed trap disarm, and an in-dungeon disease cure. They both have stress-related and scouting-related camping skills, though HM's is better overall (including anti-ambush). In turn, you lose a potential (immobile) stunner, stress-healer, guard, marker, and a relatively beefy self-sustainer with impeccable projection.

As someone explained above -- if you're one of the few people who value dodge, you technically benefit more from a HM than you do a GR seeing as they have the same baselines and his method involves guarding people while stacking it (with no per-battle restriction). The fact he can stun in-between also helps a lot.

[Lord DeLacy]

Topic is about GR's right?

I'm new to the game and all I know is that I like the GR. Shadow Fade and then bang, it's almost a guaranteed kill in round 2 (whilst the GR is safe in round 1).

Typically the enemy R4 is dead after round 1 and R3 is stunned. So GR in round 2 gets to choose which enemy to kill (usually R3).

Once the stress casters are down, I can frolick all I like with the enemy R1's/R2's

Recently discovered MAA's ability (with trinket for MAA R4 bonus) to PROT, DODGE, HP and GUARD. Man, my party never had it so easy. The MAA simply puts his shield around them, dodges most things, reduces damage when he does get it and has high HP.

From a newbies point of view, GR's are fun. I don't know what's meta and what isn't, I just play to have fun.

[rompier02]

GR shadow fade doesn't work against bosses in Veteran & higher level. She can be targeted even while in that mode. Think as long as you having fun with her the hell with what other people say. That is why I play vid games for fun.

[No One]

Escrito originalmente por RopeDrink:

the less opponents to deal with, the less you have to worry about being hit by something

Toxin trickery increases dodge by 13%. Killing something reduces incoming attacks by 25%, which is like 25-ish dodge that applies to the whole party.

[spaceweezle]

Escrito originalmente por rompier02:

GR shadow fade doesn't work against bosses in Veteran & higher level. She can be targeted even while in that mode.

Damn, that changes my whole perspective on her. Shadowfade was the main selling point for making her a decent pick. That's actually a pretty huge caveat.

Boss encounters would be the one instance where I'd be heavily relying on that to prevent insta-gib. Good thing you've brought this to my attention.

[RopeDrink]

Damn, that changes my whole perspective on her. Shadowfade was the main selling point for making her a decent pick. That's actually a pretty huge caveat.

Shadow Fade certainly isn't what makes her a decent pick and was never that great even as a raw defensive button.

It was arguably much better before the rework because it could stun enemies. When it was reworked into a stealth-buff, it could (initially) be spammed due to no target requirements, allowing her to repeatedly increase her +DMG to obscene levels whilst the enemy (trash or boss) couldn't do anything to her. Stack it up, unleash attack, watch big damage number kill the boss. It was promptly fixed to nobody's surprise.

Apart from that fun fact, it's rarely worth using unless you want to move backwards or you'd like her to avoid certain enemies/attacks -- maybe even to funnel attacks onto someone else in some niche scenarios.

The main reason it ever existed was so that the GR could go backwards after a Lunge. The stealth component is nice and all, but the +DMG buff makes people think that it should be done first (when in reality, you really, really, really don't need to because Lunge's raw unbuffed damage is more than enough to facilitate quick wins).

Same principle applies to the Jester and his pocket nuke. The rework makes it so that using any of his other abilities stacks upcoming Finale damage, but by the time you've done this, the fight is generally already won, rendering it more of a boss-finisher.

Seriously, just Lunge.

[sasiji]

Escrito originalmente por rompier02:

GR shadow fade doesn't work against bosses in Veteran & higher level. She can be targeted even while in that mode. Think as long as you having fun with her the hell with what other people say. That is why I play vid games for fun.

Untrue statement.
Some bosses ignore stealth on most attacks (like siren, Shrieker or prophet) but others (like necro, swine prince, flesh, most of vvulf attacks exept bomb itself) doesn't have stealth ignore at all and only way that allows them to attack is aoe that target anyone that isnt stealthed.

And NONE of base game bosses get additional stealth ignore per difficulty.

[RopeDrink]

Escrito originalmente por sasiji:

Escrito originalmente por rompier02:

GR shadow fade doesn't work against bosses in Veteran & higher level. She can be targeted even while in that mode. Think as long as you having fun with her the hell with what other people say. That is why I play vid games for fun.

Untrue statement.
Some bosses ignore stealth on most attacks (like siren, Shrieker or prophet) but others (like necro, swine prince, flesh, most of vvulf attacks exept bomb itself) doesn't have stealth ignore at all and only way that allows them to attack is aoe that target anyone that isnt stealthed.

And NONE of base game bosses get additional stealth ignore per difficulty.

Not to mention that stealth won't save the hider from AoE attacks so long as said AoE attack can target someone else and includes the stealthed slot in the attack.

A lot of bosses have AoE's of some description (Fulminate, Tenderize, Devour, Pressure Crash, Condemnation, yadda yadda). This works for and against the player seeing as the same thing applies to stealthed enemies, like using a JES Harvest to hit R2 so that you also hit a stealthed unit in R3.

Doesn't make stealth any less of a defensive button (and a semi-decent one at that), but I wouldn't open a fight with it when you could just lunge.

[rompier02]

Escrito originalmente por sasiji:

Escrito originalmente por rompier02:

GR shadow fade doesn't work against bosses in Veteran & higher level. She can be targeted even while in that mode. Think as long as you having fun with her the hell with what other people say. That is why I play vid games for fun.

Untrue statement.
Some bosses ignore stealth on most attacks (like siren, Shrieker or prophet) but others (like necro, swine prince, flesh, most of vvulf attacks exept bomb itself) doesn't have stealth ignore at all and only way that allows them to attack is aoe that target anyone that isnt stealthed.

And NONE of base game bosses get additional stealth ignore per difficulty.

Before you start hurling accusations look at what you type. Did I specify any bosses? AOE damage hits every one.

Escrito originalmente por sasiji:

Some bosses ignore stealth on most attacks (like siren, Shrieker or prophet.

Your types not mine. So what is untrue here?

Escrito originalmente por sasiji:

And NONE of base game bosses get additional stealth ignore per difficulty.

So professor please show where I typed this?

sasiji has Darkest Dungeon® 7 Feb @ 5:20pm
Some skills can ignore stealth.
Iirc all or almost all shrieker attacks ignore stealth toavoid 1 GR exploit.

Nuff said. I know which of us is making untrue types here.

[sasiji]

Doesn't work against bosses In veteran and higher lvl.

-You don't tell ANY boss and you tell that anti stealth factor is related to difficulty in the same sentence.

Aka meaning veteran+ boss ignore stealth.
Reality is: Some bosses ignore stealth, some don't ignore and difficulty does not affect stealth ignore factor.