TIL Virago can spawn more than once

[Mulciber]

I'm playing on radiant, decided to try a long, champion-difficulty weald quest for the second time, since the virago ended my first one since I was unprepared and had nobody to attack the back slots.

My first encounter was the Virago and three grave nibblers. I sort of shrug and say "oh well, at least it's out of the way." I have a long, drawn out battle against the Virago as it dodges my Hellion's Iron Swan and resists my Plague Doctor's afflictions. They all hard-target my plague doctor, even when other characters were marked, and his stress skyrockets past the 150 mark before the Virago is killed. I decide to continue, thinking that it can't get much worse, now that I've killed what I thought would be the only Virago.

Cue the giant in my second encounter. "Well, crap," I say, but bad RNG is what it is and I just roll with it. Crits everywhere, targeting whoever the hell he wants besides my self-marked Crusader, everyone ends up on death's door at least once, and the poor doc finally just dies to a death's door heart attack. I finally prevail, and decide to camp. I do my thing, heal the rampant stress and mortality debuffs, and decide to push on for a few more rooms so I can at least recoup my preparations costs.

Encounter 3: The Hateful Virago.

What the f***.

I ran and abandoned the quest on the spot. F* the weald, f* the giant, and most importantly, f* the Virago, everyone responsible for the Virago, and everything they stand for.

Side note: I *do* in hindsight understand the Plague Doc probably shouldn't be in the Weald, ever. That was my one mistake. The rest was just bad RNG and/or bull-honkey. Who on earth decided the Virago was a good idea?

[Drokmon]

Indeed, Virago and champion Weald are brutal. It's like fighting a mini Shrieker every time.

I've found no real solution to dealing with them safely. I tend to wipe out the other enemies (and their corpses) first before focusing on her. She'll always deal a bunch of damage to the party, and the frequency at which she is encountered during a run will generally dictate whether that run can be completed or not.

If you want to try taking them down faster, the only thing I can suggest is Arbalest w/ Sniper's Mark and Wrathful Bandana or Occultist w/ Vulnerability Hex and Demon's Cauldron. Both will debuff her insane dodge and the marks will speed up kills when you use the right skills.

[Justice]

safe team against Virago would be:
Crusader - vestal - highwayman - man at arms

Start holy Lancing and pistol shoting virago until she is dead. By the time Crusader reach rank 2, virago *should be* dead.
Man at arms defend position 2 hero to prevent high dmg against Giants and mark attacks on your team. You can put team accuracy buff skill on man at arms, bolster to increase dodge.

[Mulciber]

Originally posted by Justice:

safe team against Virago would be:
Crusader - vestal - highwayman - man at arms

Start holy Lancing and pistol shoting virago until she is dead. By the time Crusader reach rank 2, virago *should be* dead.
Man at arms defend position 2 hero to prevent high dmg against Giants and mark attacks on your team. You can put team accuracy buff skill on man at arms, bolster to increase dodge.

Originally posted by Drokmon:

Indeed, Virago and champion Weald are brutal. It's like fighting a mini Shrieker every time.

I've found no real solution to dealing with them safely. I tend to wipe out the other enemies (and their corpses) first before focusing on her. She'll always deal a bunch of damage to the party, and the frequency at which she is encountered during a run will generally dictate whether that run can be completed or not.

If you want to try taking them down faster, the only thing I can suggest is Arbalest w/ Sniper's Mark and Wrathful Bandana or Occultist w/ Vulnerability Hex and Demon's Cauldron. Both will debuff her insane dodge and the marks will speed up kills when you use the right skills.

Thank y'all for the tips; I'll keep it in mind next time I attempt champion weald, but I'm still probably going to leave long quests in there alone forever. The salt is too real.

[No One]

If your stress got to 150, you did something very wrong, and it's time to leave.

Looks like you found out how marks aren't to be relied upon. Or even used, really. If you want to stop a giant critting your front row you either need someone with 185% stun chance, or something which protects both ranks, not half of them.

If you build for it, you can stun a giant 85% of the time with the plague doctor. You can also put her in row 3 and use incision, though I normally don't bother. The problem with your party isn't the PD. Healers are necessary but that aside the PD is just the best character.

One problem: using iron swan on a virago when the maggots are still alive. I would bleed out a maggot to make sure it dies.

There are no spawn restrictions except for wandering bosses. It's just a list of probabilities. If it wants, it can spawn a virago/giant on every fight.

[Mulciber]

Originally posted by No One:

If your stress got to 150, you did something very wrong, and it's time to leave.

Looks like you found out how marks aren't to be relied upon. Or even used, really. If you want to stop a giant critting your front row you either need someone with 185% stun chance, or something which protects both ranks, not half of them.

If you build for it, you can stun a giant 85% of the time with the plague doctor. You can also put her in row 3 and use incision, though I normally don't bother. The problem with your party isn't the PD. Healers are necessary but that aside the PD is just the best character.

One problem: using iron swan on a virago when the maggots are still alive. I would bleed out a maggot to make sure it dies.

Mark wasn't something I had relied upon much until then; nothing else really merited using it when I had it in my party before. Based on other games I'd played, I figured it would be a strong/true taunt skill, bringing most or all damage onto the marked character. Clearly I was incorrect, I will remember such.

I *strongly* agree PD is the best. Her backline AOE Blight DOT is a life-saver, but so many things are resistant to it in the weald it's hard to do anything with it, particularly in the encounters I was in. As for the Stun, I don't have my guild fully upgraded yet, nor do I have the artifacts needed to allow for any level of consistency when Stun resistances are upwards of 90.

As for letting the maggots live, that was purely because the first time I encountered the Virago, this being the second, I did exactly that and nearly wiped my party because I couldn't heal, I didn't have anything strong enough to damage the backline (a mistake I've made sure never to repeat), and I couldn't kill the fungi quick enough to re-allow heals. That said, with this comp, I likely could have remedied all of those problems and avoided the absolute wrecking the Virago gave me.

TL;DR: most of these mistakes come from lack of experience; I only just began embarking on champion-level quests. I'll keep these in mind, though. Thanks for the advice!

There are no spawn restrictions except for wandering bosses. It's just a list of probabilities. If it wants, it can spawn a virago/giant on every fight.

So I learned, yes!

[RopeDrink]

Based on other games I'd played, I figured it would be a strong/true taunt skill

A lot of people would have been a lot better off if they realized it sooner. It's a common misconception reached by many, despite there being no indication of it anywhere. While some accuse DD of not being the most informative game on the market, the tooltips generally still tell you all you really need to know -- and the words 'taunt' or 'threat' appears absolutely nowhere in that type of context.

It often leads to this weird notion that heroes like the Crusader or Leper are 'tanks' -- big beefy heroes that attract attention away from squishies (which simply doesn't happen except when dealing with enemies that have mark-related attacks). In reality, they're meatsacks -- or in MOBA terms, 'bruisers' -- in a game where you are infinitely better off just killing or stunning the enemy rather than trying to build yourself up to 'take hits' in any kind of way. It also doesn't help that they're slow as snails drowning in treacle with a bad case of arthritis, with a lot of enemies (if allowed) throwing attacks out before said 'not-tanks' actually get to act most of the time.

When in doubt: be faster, have stunners, and be ready to dunk R3 and/or R4. A simple recipe for an easier time.

MAA is the only true tank in the game. He can also self-mark -- not that doing so is EVER a good idea unless you absolutely want to funnel the attacks of very specific enemies like Fungal Gropers. Even then, it's generally not a good idea.

Honestly, self-marking should never, ever, be considered a buff in any way, shape, or form. It is a literal debuff. The only difference is you're casting it on yourself rather than an enemy doing it. Whether the developers intended it to not be garbage in some other way, or are using it as a negative 'trade-off' for casting certain abilities (similar to how a FLA debuffs or bleeds himself by using certain skills), is up for debate.

Either way, you've learned some good lessons. Being able to attack (or at least control) the back-ranks is one of the most important non-statistic-related factors in DD. It shouldn't take long for a player to realize that all those pesky stress-nukers (and various health nukers and debuffers causing you woes) are all sitting nice and snug behind 1-3 other enemies.

As for the Virago, she's undoubtedly the nastiest champion-centric mob. No doubt about it. However, despite almost being worth considering as a mini-boss, she is literally just another enemy in the trash-pack rotation, so you can very well meet multiple Viragos in your future run.

You know this now, which means you can prepare for it, or at least have it in mind -- which is essentially the way you learn the game. You trip up, then figure out how to dampen it, or at best, avoid it entirely.

[No One]

If you're dodge-tanking with a jester, the mark is pretty cool. But yes it's almost always a debuff. The CRU's 30% prot is a joke since marks grant at least +50% damage on almost anything that cares about them. Nerfing defender was good, but CRU's non-repeatable buff didn't also need nerfing.

Maybe you would emergency mark when someone is hurt. But, better idea: emergency inspiring cry or battle heal.

CRU and LEP are tanks if you have both of them at the same time. Many enemies are restricted to 1+2 and most to 1+2+3, meaning stuff is much less likely to go wrong. As opposed to what I do and have OCC in row 1 where he can even be hit by point blank shot.
The one time I would use marking self-prot is having a CRU-LEP front line and facing a giant. Crit into this, sucker. (Well, also the swine king, who incidentally clears marks with his attack.) Also both can survive a treebranch crit even before the prot.

One enemy cares about marks and can reach the back, but then my LEP is in row 1 where they can't care about his mark. Bone arbalests. Mainly these skills seem to be in the game for flavour, rather than to be trained or used.

--

Originally posted by Mulciber:

I don't have my guild fully upgraded yet

Found the problem.
The transition to champion is hard on the order of the first 10 weeks. Tied for first, in other words. Making it even harder than it needs to be will make it hands-down the hardest part of the game.


Maggots don't leave corpses and the virago can't use them. They're just in the way.

Even if there is something in front, bleed out is the way to go, so you can let it bleed out and not leave a corpse.

I normally don't even have plague grenade on her bar. Blinding gas is always the right decision unless they have 245% stun resist, and even then there's often a cloaked hag next to the virago.

But yeah the first time you see a virago it's a huge kick in the teeth. Surprise(!) gimmick. Once the gimmick isn't a surprise, I find what causes me problem is the mark when she spawns with fungal gropers, and when she crits her puke-push and then my OCC starts meme healing.

[RopeDrink]

CRU and LEP are tanks if you have both of them at the same time

Some might even refer to the old video "The Wall" (VES-MAA-CRU-LEP - an actual tank, two bruisers, and the queen of heals) -- but I consider choking up R1-R2 with, not one, but two treacle-coated arthritic snail meat sacks as falling into a similar trap anyway.

You are more than likely going to have to take those hits due to most of your opener/control stemming from the remaining two slots -- more so if they're slow and/or lack stuns/projection to stop it. Well, least the front two have a CRU stun, which only hits the front and is slow from the get-go, on top of neither CRU nor LEP being able to project from those positions except for Intimidate.

In terms of the wall (going for all three beefcakes at the same time), that compounds the issue further. Basically, winning through sustain or outlasting (despite the game not liking the idea of healing through damage, nevermind taking too much of it), whilst putting yourself in a position where you just kinda have to.

I attribute The Wall to that category of 'waste time sustaining through what you could otherwise typically win in 1-3 rounds of standard fare' - similar to marking, dodging, etc. They all work in their own way (and all the nitty-gritty just boils down to another success vs efficiency discussion), but you could just do the usual drivel and be done quicker in general.

[Justice]

Originally posted by RopeDrink:

I attribute The Wall to that category of 'waste time sustaining through what you could otherwise typically win in 1-3 rounds of standard fare' - similar to marking, dodging, etc.

The Wall quite capable to do very formidable damage (especialy in Ruins). You have Leper and Crusader who can 1 shot enemies in turn one. While man at arms secure Vestal or stun enemy. The wall is a guranteed sustainability WHEN you need to recover or stall. Man at arms and Leper can move around frontline enemy to bring squishy ones to front and even if they will reach back by their weaker skill - they will meet crusader holy Lance to the face.

[No One]

Originally posted by RopeDrink:

You are more than likely going to have to take those hits

On the other hand, if you're taking those hits anyway because your skill isn't there yet, having a couple beefy frontliners means those hits aren't a big deal.

♥♥♥♥ can go wrong without ♥♥♥♥ going wrong, if you see what I'm saying.

Originally posted by RopeDrink:

but I consider choking up R1-R2 with, not one, but two treacle-coated arthritic snail meat sacks as falling into a similar trap anyway.

Can do a similar thing with solo JES + SBR. Or two of either, for that matter, but why would I give up reach and armour piercing or the ability to manage stress?

[Mulciber]

Originally posted by No One:

The one time I would use marking self-prot is having a CRU-LEP front line and facing a giant. Crit into this, sucker. (Well, also the swine king, who incidentally clears marks with his attack.) Also both can survive a treebranch crit even before the prot.

Not in my experience... I was taking crits in the order of 55 damage, which overwhelmed even my Crusader's health bar. It's one of the main reasons the giant is as big of an issue as it is for me, though I suspect that's more of an equipment issue on my end.

Originally posted by Mulciber:

I don't have my guild fully upgraded yet

Found the problem.
The transition to champion is hard on the order of the first 10 weeks. Tied for first, in other words. Making it even harder than it needs to be will make it hands-down the hardest part of the game.

Yeah, it's a priority; the only thing slowing it down is that, to make up for all the heroes I inevitably lose anyways along the way, I've been trying to upgrade the recruitment levels, so I've been splitting resources across the blacksmith, the guild, and the cart. I'm recruiting level 3 heroes now, which is *way* better than losing a Champion/Legend and having to re-start out with a level 0. I'm definitely feeling that difficulty spike you mentioned, though, so I'll probably put the sole priority on the guild instead, for now.

Maggots don't leave corpses and the virago can't use them. They're just in the way.

Even if there is something in front, bleed out is the way to go, so you can let it bleed out and not leave a corpse.

I didn't even consider this; ugh. This is stuff I knew already, but I didn't make the connection at the time. It would have made the encounter bearable.

I normally don't even have plague grenade on her bar. Blinding gas is always the right decision unless they have 245% stun resist, and even then there's often a cloaked hag next to the virago.

I usually have Plague Grenade, Noxious Fumes, Blinding Gas and Combat Medicine. Plague Grenade usually lets me kill both fodder backline stress dealers in two turns, and I usually have someone(Vestal) who can stun one of them in the meantime. The remaining stress dealer normally has an even chance to miss anyways. The cloaked hag's a ♥♥♥♥♥, but she wasn't there this time and usually the plague grenade takes her out if I don't have a Flagellant or Twilight Dreamer on my team.

But yeah the first time you see a virago it's a huge kick in the teeth. Surprise(!) gimmick. Once the gimmick isn't a surprise, I find what causes me problem is the mark when she spawns with fungal gropers, and when she crits her puke-push and then my OCC starts meme healing.

Yeah, she was my first encounter with a champion-exclusive enemy. I've since encountered the one in the Cove and the one in the Warrens, which are both a bit rough but not nearly on the level of the Virago. That puke-push is definitely awful.

[No One]

Crusader max HP at level 5 is 61.

[Mulciber]

Originally posted by RopeDrink:

Based on other games I'd played, I figured it would be a strong/true taunt skill

You know this now, which means you can prepare for it, or at least have it in mind -- which is essentially the way you learn the game. You trip up, then figure out how to dampen it, or at best, avoid it entirely.

Yep; all of your points are things I've come to realize. It's part of the learning curve, and said learning curve is no small part of the fun I have with games as punishing as this one. The Virago just seemed like a league above the usual.

As a side note, more to your point about being faster, stun and dunk on R3 and R4, I've fallen in love with the Flagellant, Plague Doctor, Houndmaster and Jester for precisely these reasons. PD/FLA's backline AOE make them stars at this, and the Jester makes everyone hit harder and faster. Houndmaster's ability to hit anyone from nearly anywhere has made him a firm favorite of mine, even if his overall efficacy is somewhat party-dependent.

[Mulciber]

Originally posted by No One:

Crusader max HP at level 5 is 61.

It may be a negative quirk holding him back, then. The one in question has low-50's, but I've also only got second-to-last armor upgrades at the blacksmith.


For those of you assuming I have access to max-level skills/upgrades due to my achievements indicating I've gotten some, that's because I got a town event that sent a completely maxed Level 6 Flagellant my way when I was still working with Level 3's and 4's. Dude has been a star, but I can't make others like him yet.

[RopeDrink]

The Wall quite capable to do very formidable damage (especialy in Ruins). You have Leper and Crusader who can 1 shot enemies in turn one. While man at arms secure Vestal or stun enemy.

That largely compounds my point. They have huge damage on (typically) low priority targets and provide it slowly, often against teams containing faster troublemakers further back. As a result, most of the pressure is on your remaining two slots to prevent stress or health damage while you even the odds. The saving grace is -- it's a team that can allow a few hits through without caring about it as much, and two of said heroes are stupidly sustainable.

Leper is one of the least likely heroes to die in the game and the CRU is the ultimate generalist with almost the same healthpool. If you want anyone to take a few slaps, you'd rather it would be either one. However, if you put the LEP in a vacuum, it's less of a benefit, because his presence allows more intake that won't always be centered on him. Multiply them and you get the overall problem, even if you can still work around it.

Meanwhile, the well-built squishy team focusing on control and back-rank destruction above all else is going to wham-bam you from one fight to the next far quicker in general, and there's a reason why a vast majority of complaints come from people using slow heroes (especially in multiples).

Ultimately: nobody is saying comps like the Wall can't work - it absolutely does. It just boils down to the typical "victory" vs "efficiency" argument, which not many people truly care for.