is stress healer a crucial role?

[Private Pyle]

My pos 3 is usually taken by jester or HM, its a safe composition usually but is it better to just take another hero with more damage output or CC?

Id like to experiment but i also would like to not die. :D

[ggg]

Hi War Master,

It depends on whether I'm taking out a group that I've already started working on.

I usually try to have at least some stress relief unless I am taking out a group where I've locked in excellent quirks (& removed negatives), and also have them upgraded (skills & armor/trinkets).

For me, mobs & locale also affect the choice-- there are certainly areas where I'd feel more comfortable with a dedicated stress healer.

If you have enough heroes, tailoring the team for the particular dungeon really does help.

[Ivan Jamal]

Fast kills and consistent stuns are often better at countering stress than trying to heal it off. Camping is also a great tool for that, if it's available.

[Radio Star]

depends on the comp you're going with, but generally speaking a stunner is going to be better in the long run than a stress reliever. That said, one of my groups is literally built to just be very hard to kill, and the jester has proven invaluable due to it's ability to make up for the comp's weakness to stress.

That said, Jester's abilities are pretty nice to get a nice battle boost, and it does synergize very well with Flagelent to stack bleeds up.

[Private Pyle]

HM and Jester are usually never bad. Early game its just too ez to default to those classes to keep stress low.

Pos 3 seems like such a big slot.

[Radio Star]

Originally posted by War Master:

HM and Jester are usually never bad. Early game its just too ez to default to those classes to keep stress low.

Pos 3 seems like such a big slot.

It really is when you think about it. 4th usually goes to the healer to keep them from harm, but third can go to a damage dealer, a stunner, a jester, buffer, and so on. Lol, seriously. First and second slot? Throw in a Leper, Crusader, or something that can take a hit and deal damage. Maybe a highway man if you're more melee. Third Slot? "Huh... well, I have this, so... but it's this zone.... hmm...."

[Gilmoy]

There are 2 kinds of damage, hence 2 kinds of healers.
Both are important enough to be bullet items on your weekly checklist:

[_] who heals? (it does not have to be Vestal, you can fill this role with other classes)
[_] who stress-heals? (it doesn't have to be Jester, other classes can cover it)

Or, more generally:
[_] what is this team's answer to stress?

Some acceptable answers are:
[x] Jester -- this is easy for newbies

or
[x] L3-L5 Crusader, or Houndmaster, or Arbalest/Musketeer

or even:
[x] alpha-stun everybody with a fast stun team, take 0 stress in the first place

That last bit is obviously brittle if anything goes wrong (so 1 time in 100 fights), but can be a hoot to play when everything works right. It demands some expertise, good trinkets, an "ideal" build, and a bit of daredevil adventurism. If it works, it works.

The point is that you should always think about how every team of 4 will answer stress. Healing it with a stress-healer is a bit of a sledgehammer, but it works.
Other solutions also exist, and they're worth exactly your success rate with them

~~~~~~~~

Generally, at L4-L5, the secondary healer classes (HOU in stress, CRU and ARB/MUS in both) get strong enough with their minor heals that you could rely on 2 of them to cover each healing role. That opens up many new team combos that don't blindly use VES-JES. Off the top of my head:

+ ARB and OCC to heal, HOU and OCC to stun, HOU howls, add another stunner like ABM.
A perfectly good stun team, and it still covers both healing roles.

+ SHB as goon, HWM as goon, CRU as dual-healer, oh hey, all 3 can dance.
Add any 4th dual-healer like ARB, and this looks like a big-damage dancing team, with 3 goons doing a whirlwind. Still has both heals covered.

+ PD as double-stunner, but that eats a backrow slot, so already you lose 1 of VES or JES. So splash in CRU as front-row dual-healer, and you have 2 slots left. Could even start CRU in #3 and open with Holy Lance, then stay in #2 and swing his sword.

And so on. Each week, for each team, you consider who's got the healing roles covered, but you also look at their offensive strengths (stun, or damage, or can hit #4, or can dance, etc.), and find combos that go together.

A team with 0 healers is also a valid solution. If that team can win so fast it never takes the stress, or takes moderate amounts and camps twice to cure it all, that works. If it works, it works. This level of bravery is not for newbies. Generally, you need to have great stun trinkets on the best stunners, and lock in 1-3 +SPD quirks each, to achieve reliable top-of-round-1 stun-locking. By week 80 or so, you could surely build those teams if it interests you.

[No One]

It's significantly easier with than without, but no it's not necessary.

Early game stress healing is weak, around 60% of the power of late-game stress healing, swapping it out isn't too bad. Cry havoc more than doubles in power between level 1 and 5. If you're worried about it, early-game is the time to experiment.

On the other hand, level 0s have serious stress problems. Between a bonus 25 stress for entering level 1 dungeons and the +10% stress taken, it's like they have an inherent debuff of +50% stress taken. That's kind of a lot.

Remember, crusaders can also soothe, which can free up a back row.

If a party doesn't work for you, try taking the leper out. Leper parties can work, but you the player have to work a lot harder to make them work. Much easier to use a good class. (Clue's in the name.)

[Moon Moon]

Hardly neccesary

Camping can fix most of the stress accumulated throught the quest, but overall stress mobs should be your top priority and you should kill them, stun them, pull them to front, etc.

[RopeDrink]

A well greased comp that's set up properly and has as many comforts as possible (eg. trinkets, skills, hero upgrades, hamlet upgrades, max-level for the dungeon, etc) -- not to mention combat-specifics, like projection, speed, good damage, stuns, a little self-sustain (etc) will have a lot less intake compared to similar or identical comps with less luxuries.

A lot of the time, being able to control the battlefield and/or dunk enemies before they can act will save you from so much healing and stress-healing that they're barely required.

On the flip side, I'm reminded of one particular person who was convinced that OCC was mandatory for success in DD and relied so heavily on healing that they used to take 2-3 of them (like VES + OCC + OCC + damage dealer). The irony is that such a setup is basically inviting the enemy to slap them around so that all you can do is spam heals in response -- and they had no stress-healer, which was made MORE apparant because they were stuck in a recovery loop all day and being stressed constantly. Meanwhile, any kind of remotely standard comp would have gotten much, much, much farther, even with fewer or no shealers/healers.

In short, yes, you can do so much to prevent the need for healing in the first place -- but not to a point where having them is no longer a good idea.

[oakie5275]

Yes, it is pretty required if you are trying to play the game in an optimal way. You also always pretty much need a Vestal. Since the jester is the best stress healer, that just leaves you to decide who to put in slots 1-2.

The Crusader and Houndmaster can also stress heal, so in the Ruins and Cove I sometimes take a Plague doctor/Crusader instead of taking the jester. If I'm running a houndmaster, I still like to run a Crusader with it if possible for extra stress heal. With the Flagellant you can run a strat where you don't care your flagellant becomes afflicted, and just use him to heal the others. Edit: Like someone else said below, he can't become virtuous

[RopeDrink]

You also always pretty much need a Vestal.

Except you don't. It's no secret that VES+JES are No.1 in those respective roles and will often be paired together for the ultimate safety net, but they're not required. They're just the easy option in a "No reason not to use them" position.

Personally, I avoid using Vestals almost all of the time, restricting them to very specific boss fights, one-shot Court runs from start-to-finish, and Endless mode.

Some of the most successful runs in endless mode doesn't even include Vestal or Jester in the comp, and taking him/her to the Court is just an easier/safer option when you want to complete it using one invitation -- and that's not saying you couldn't do the same with alternatives. Hell, you could take any healer or shealer you like and leave if it gets testy. Invitations are another infinite resource after all. Taking them is just safer.

I use Jester's more often solely because they're bleeders, which fit my most commonly used compositions. The fact he's the best stress healer in the game helps -- but then, HM and FLA are also bleed-capable stress-healers and are far more versatile and have better damage by comparison -- not to mention the ultimate generalist, CRU, who can fit into almost anything.

It is, after all, a game where you could win with quad Antiquarians if you really, really, really wanted to. The other ways are just easier/simpler/quicker.

[No One]

HM-PD-CRU-FLG
Healer: not required.

FLG cannot go virtuous, regardless of how much +virtue you put on him. That check is simply skipped in his case.

[oakie5275]

Originally posted by RopeDrink:

You also always pretty much need a Vestal.

Except you don't.

Thanks for the sub-optimal advice!

[Skinny Pete]

Originally posted by oakie5275:

Originally posted by RopeDrink:

Except you don't.

Thanks for the sub-optimal advice!

Except it's entirely correct. Outside of the Court and the Farmstead, which nearly require a VES-JES backline, Vestal is not the optimal backliner. VES is in most dungeons a noob crutch, because it is mainly noobs who desperately need a full party heal every other round. The reason it's a reliable backline in Court and Farmstead is these locations shower you with constant unavoidable damage and stress, hence the need for reliably mitigating this. In other dungeons, outside of a few boss fights, the better way of mitigating this is just killing whatever is inflicting damage and stress before it can do it.

[RopeDrink]

Thanks for the sub-optimal advice!

My post was a statement, not advice.

It's no secret that you need far less sustain when you speedily strangle an opponents ability to inflict the need for sustain in the first place, which is in line with the OP's original query regarding preemptive vs reactive -- a very old and tested topic that's been done to death.

Ironically, the heroes that are best at achieving this do not include Vestal or Jester -- outside of an average stun. Their projection is sub-par, and a one-shot back-rank pocket nuke (Finale) has since been neutered to a point where it's rarely used at all. Their strength primarily resides in healing/shealing, and this is only as strong as your need for it. There are better options for pretty much everything else they can do.

Nobody will deny that the VES & JES (especially in tandem) are the No.1 sustainers in the game, and that either/or can make life easier almost everywhere -- but that does not equate to a requirement in any sense of the word unless you personally rely on them for your success.

Outside of the Court and the Farmstead, which nearly require a VES-JES backline...

Only in a traditional sense. You need neither for small Court missions -- not that there's much reason to do them. If you had the invitations and inclination, you could chip away at long missions with quad Antiquarians -- outside of Bloodmoon, of course, in which case there are various solid alternatives. It's just easier to slap a Ves/Jes in the mix and call it a day.

Same applies to Endless - which you can't really 'win' outside of the introductory missions and personal goals like a 300-wave achievement. Regardless of whether it was pre or post nerf, one of the largest clears I recall involved 1200 waves with no Vestals or Jesters at all, and the idea behind the comp in question can still be put to the test regardless of pre/post nerf.

If all you care about is generating currency for trinkets, you can use whatever you like -- but once again, it's just easier/safer to slap a Ves/Jes in there.

Standard content speaks for itself, especially normal boss-fights - a lot of which don't need sustain at all (if you exclude the fact you have to reach them first). Same goes for Shrieker and Hamlet Assault.