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Now, in case crit actually applies to heals, too, it's pretty obvious what that something else is. I've been told crits improve stun chance on a crit with a stun attack, and they obviously improve damage, so if they also improve heals it's no wonder why I'm doing so well with Vestals in general. I give them a bunch of +acc and +crit.
And you certainly don't want to give up anything for healing boosts. Even the trinket slot, if you've got anything better to put in it.
It's not in the patch notes that I can tell, which doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't happened.
so basically this gonna be a vestal thread and u gonna write about that "offensive vestal" thing
which is hey if u got stuff to share why not amirite
still
ideally u want to use camping for stress heals and buffs, sometimes for stuff that's gonna save a chunk of gold like removing diseases. once you exit dungeon health heals, but stress doesn't. so you're always building stress somewhere usually, and if you can cheap out by curing stress in camp instead of in town, then you do it. if you're a dirty skinflint min-maxer anyways
so stating that you can cure hit point in damage in camp - yehhhhh and u can eat expensive food too, true, true. but all in all, healing in combat and not having to do it in camp is nice, so u can save those camping time units for other stuff
'course it really depends on where the party is in terms of speed and expected damage. like, if u have a buncha high SPD high DMG characters that can hit rear ranks then usually they kill stuff and vestal chips in here and there whatever. on the other hand if you don't really have a safety margin (which can happen a lot) u can run SPD on Vestal and try to do some offense.
but saying "offensive vestal" - well basically low base speed, indifferent damage, targeting limitations, single-target stun, basically you're going 40/60 on chip if u spec for SPD (which is better than 20/80 sure but still) and cutting your healing. and you know you need the healing. so it really comes down to whether the 40/60 chip damage is going to make up for the healing lost, and you could make that argument to some degree, but once you start looking at head trinkets and whatnot, healing really starts getting boosted pretty high.
anyways if u were using vestal for offense imo u need to boost that SPD or what's the point really then if u wanna do somethin else then hey sure crit why not. esp if ur gonna run a haste chalice so screw ur stun over anyways
Well, that's good to know. And probably a good thing it's like that, too.
I get where the idea came from, but no, that wasn't he intention. I remembered folks complainign about the Occultist not being dependable enough, and about the Vestal being useless, and though about how I don't use healing trinkets on healers and do fine and have fewer complaints... So I wondered why that was, like, exactly.
You know, if it's due to something I'm doing right and that could be pinned down, then it would've been good advice.
I always figured one of the things newer players don't know and more veteran players do is that you can get quite a bunch of food from curios in certain directions. And also how recently that one fellow thought you should only do short runs because he didn't understand how good camping is in general.
I find that I can generally heal up while camping without putting too much (or any) effort into it, and the munching on food isn't that much of a problem. Certainly not big enough of a problem to sacrifice 2 trinket slots on a healer, and this hasn't really failed me even in the Farmstead.
I really dislike the head trinkets because the stress price on those is like keeping "the worries" disease on a guy. Whatever they give doesn't feel like it's worth the attrition, and all it takes is one serious stress hit landing for the enemies to start focusing the person with the most stress. I stay away from them and I don't feel like I'm missing out...
Vestal's not really meant to be the topic of conversation, but I wouldn't dream for screwing up my stun chance on a Vestal for a healing boost. I've played her with boosted healing a few times recently to see if I'm wrong, and sure, she heals better, but I really wouldn't give up the stun for that. It's not as bad a stun as people make it up to be without any trinkets. Provided you don't throw it at tings with very high stun resistance it will stun what you throw it at, and that's always a good opening move (and later it usually buys me a free turn to do whatever with the other guys). But lets not make it a Vestal thread.
But getting back to the core of what you were saying, they probably should make heal crits buffable as it would make it easier to balance some heals- some of the ones that don't normally heal for that much given the speed of the healer (Battle Heal) might be better as a low base value, high crit chance heal. Heal crit % chance could also be an applied buff on several heroes:
Arbalest- Battle Bandage also gives +% chance of crit heal on the target
Antiquarian- Gives bonus heal received on crit heals on the target
Didn't have problems with no-healing-trinket Vestals at all, either, quite the opposite - I seem to be the guy with the least complaints about her on this forum. I don't stall, I don't put healing trinkets on her, and I consider her the most powerful character in the game. But, again, please, let's not make this about her. There's certainly a point to what you're saying, but it might be that it's less of a concern than it might look.
And I really think staying away from large stress penalties on trinkets is a good idea. They seem to paint a bullseye on the guys carrying them.
haste chalice is +spd, -stun. not +heal -stun. like hey if u gonna try nonstun chip dmg then it is wat it is.
prolly u were referencing to something I hadn't mentioned but still - just what trinkets are u running on vestal anyways and under what conditions
it's bad because it's slow single target without particularly high base stun chance (amirite)?. u kno the drill. high SPD high dmg into kill, or stun gives more time to kill, kill prevents now-dead enemy from attacking.
so either u boost spd and go opportunistic stun (which isn't crazy but it's still only 40/60 unlike plague doctor) or, well, whatever.
so proly the real question is what trinkets ur using.
google. not that google is the be-all end-all answer to everything but it ain't not either.
https://www.reddit.com/r/darkestdungeon/comments/72azsd/is_building_crit_vestal_viable/ (note that thread is dated)
so isn't this thread answered? just sayin
Either she's in pos 4 and gets the pos 4 boss stuff, Prophet's Eye for sure and then really whatever else (likely the Matchstick but anything goes). If she's in pos 3 it's just Feather Crystal and Focus Ring. If it was earlie in the game it'd be the +10 acc greaves + whatever. Been playing around with her crystalline trinket, too, looks nice.
Bog standard +acc +speed + damage/crit. I put a stun trinket on her in an Endless run when I found one. She was fine without it, and fine with it. She doesn't need anything but +acc +speed +dmg, really. You don't need her to dodge, you don't need more stun cause you don't want her to be the main stunner, you don't need to boost her heals much...
Sure but it takes plenty of things out for a round while you focus the other guys. Stuns pirhana's regularly, stuns most if not all stress guys if there are two things in the back row. I throw it out on big guys who don't have a particularly high stun resistance and don't mind that it occasionally fails, too.
I mean what's she gonna do on first roud anyway, especially if she moves fast? No need to heal anyone most of the time. You can hit something with Judgment, but that's better used for finishing stuff off, especially if you've tanked a hit. So you just throw a stun. It does it's job.
Yeah, sure.
I never did the math, but i'm fairly certain that because of that + crt trinkets are generaly better than +heal ones, specially for occ that already have high base and skill crt. For vestel, i still use one heling trinket just because her base and skill crt is so garbage'rish that is temmerary to depend on it.
You mean they do work on heal crits? Are you sure?
No, thats not what i said. I'm referring to crit buffs. You know, the buff you character gains after landing a crit.
Anywho, my question's been answered. Left me wondering about both why people seem so drawn to healing trinkets, and why I seem to be doing so fine without them. So here's a closing textwall on healing trinkets.
I'll use the Vestal as the major example because folks tend to stick healing trinkets on her, and talk of those is most often specifically talk about her. Healing trinkets boost only one skill - in Vestal's case two, but it doesn't matter - and the skill they boost isn't one you want to be using at all.
You only want to use that skill if something went wrong. Having good accuracy, crit, damage, stun or whatever else makes it less likely that something will go wrong. And other skills will generally be more applicable in a lot more situations than a heal. You just notice it when it's a good idea to use it. You can heal with food and resting, too, so the need to heal in-fight isn't really that high. And when you do need to use it, you need it to take as many people as possible off of deaths door, more than you really need it to heal one guy back up to full. This is in part because enemies mostly have their targets chosen by RNG, and it's long and complicated. So let's leave that at that.
If you list out all the healing trinkets (Vestal and universal) what's there to choose from? (Assuming that the wiki is up to date)
- Healing Crystal: +15% Heal. *Not really worth a slot*
- Profane Scroll: +33% Heal, +15% Damage +10% Prot // +15% Stress - only in pos 2. *All the boosts combined don't add up to enough to not play her in the back, even if this is probably THE way to play a full +Heal Vestal, as she can heal herself and everyone else for mid-range ammounts while tanking, which is rather nice. But this doesn't do much for her if she's in the back.*
- Tome of Holy Healing: +25% Heal // -15% HP. *This effectively has no downside, but it doesn't really change the numbers on her better heal enough unless you also put a healing trinket in the other slot. So it's either one slot for not much, or two slots for... boosting one skill which you may not have to use much at all. By not all that much.*
- Sacred Scroll: -10% Stress +33% Heal // -10% Stun -33% Damage *This is just awful. You're effectively only boosting one skill, while lowering the effectiveness of every other move you could be making. This trinket is just completely awful.*
- Junia's Head: +30% Heal // +20% Stress *Monsters do focus people with the most stress on them, so adding +20% stress easily sets you up for getting stressed out in a hurry. It also doesn't combine well with other trinkets with +stress maluses. And you don't want your healer stressing out.*
- Ancestor's Scroll: +25% Heal +25% Stress heal // +10% Stress *You're better of with the Tome of Holy Healing for the Vestal.*
- Salacious Diary: +33% Stress heal while camping +25% Heal *The CC trinkets are mostly obviously better than most other ones, and this one's clearly ok in the healing department.*
- Heretical Passage: +20% Heal w Holy Water in inventory +25% dmg vs. Husk +25% dmg vs. Eldritch // +10% stress *Clearly the best of the bunch because it adds +heal to things which are worth a trinket slot*
Apart from the crystalline one, which would be a good trinket even without the healing, none of the others compete well with other things you could put in their slots. If you don't put at least +10 acc on a guy, you're hurting any skill which targets enemies. So none of these beat even Steady Bracer (+10 acc ranged, -2 dodge), let alone all the rare sources of +10 acc.
If you put two healing trinkets on, no matter how good they are, you've reduced her to only 2 skills (or one, effectively), even if you use trinkets which don't have downsides. Because playing with no acc boosts is just asking to miss way too much, even on guys with better natural acc than the Vestal. And people can still die on you AND people can certainly get stressed out. Against stress dealers you're playing a 3 man party, more or less.
But say you put her in postion 4 and you use Prophet's Eye, which is, frankly, a broken item. You get +15 acc +3 speed and -15% stress in position 4, so effectively no downside to that. All that from one trinket slot. She doesn't need dodge and tanking anyway, she's got no blights and bleeds, so those stats cover a lot of what would make sense to boost on her anyway. Say you don't want the eye on another guy, so you give it to the Vestal. You've got one trinket slot left.
Heretical Passage is an obvious fit for dungeons with Eldritch and Husks, so that's insta-pick. But other than that - is spending a trinket slot on a 25-33% healing boost actually worth more than getting more damage or more stun chance? You're not going to be a healbot with only that much of a boost, but since you're fast and accurate, you might as well also do more damage. Because you really want to be using your stun and attack more than you want to be healing, with any character, and you can supplement any healer with food and resting if how much you heal already isn't enough to fill people up.
What it boils down to, with the Vestal, is that no healing item that she can use gives +acc and you really want +acc on everyone (+10 at least). Outside of possibly some very niche parties. And even if that leaves you with a trinket slot, only one healing trinket doesn't make that much of a difference. It's not that you couldn't put one in that slot, it's just that putting something else there is probably going to do you more good.
This logic has served me well over a long time of playing and I never had what seem to be the usual gripes about the Vestal - low accuracy, low damage, low stun chance, "useless", "only good for her heal" and such. Quite the opposite. I'm pretty sure I could rack up a 1000+ in endless with no healing trinkets on her (even if I'd likely use the crystalline one which is technically a healing trinket but that's more like a bonus tacked onto a damage boost).