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Reclaim can crit, but no heal (including Reclaim) is affected by crit chance.
You can't boost Reclaim's healing with +healing skills trinkets on the Flag, but you can use +healing received on the recipient.
Support Flagellant is kind of like a Vestal that's worse in every way but can kind of stress heal. Keep in mind that the massive heals from Redeem are RNG-based--there's no guarantee your Flag will get hit--and Reclaim is pretty bad at getting heroes out of sticky situations as although it can protect against DoTs on Death's Door it restores HP very slowly and will probably just let heroes die to regular attacks instead. That means you'll need a secondary healer to deal with bad RNG when it crops up (much like Occultist) whereas Vestal has no such requirement.
Hitting things while also having good healing is kind of the point of Flagellant. If you want a character dedicated to healing there's little reason to not run a Vestal. If you want stress heals you could probably do better with Ves+stress healer than Flag+off-healer. You can still run support flag, of course, but it won't be optimized.
The issue with FLG healing is entering fights without being able to top up the FLG. On the other hand the point of having front-row healing is generally to run a PD, so it's not that critical. In other words try HM-PD-CRU-FLG.
OCC doesn't need an offhealer as long as some ground rules are observed. Bleed chance zero, +20% healing, and heal early, heal often, mainly.
Assuming all this i guess FLG can be used as full support esp as 4 of his skills can be used from any position. He alone with certain trinkets can make the team close to invincible unless they are hit by a crit couple of times in a row.
He doesn't mind getting hit as much as most do, but that doesn't mean he's free to eat hits. 38 max HP isn't spectacular and both of his defensive skills encourage putting DoTs on him. It's not too unreasonable for enemies to cut through all his HP in a turn and then die to a Reclaim or Suffer DoT he put on himself. Doubly so if you're hanging around 50-80% HP trying to bait enemies into dropping you low enough for a Redeem/Exsang--you don't need to deplete much of his HP to put him in twoshot range of most enemy parties. Or if you've used Endure and put a SPD buff on him making him potentially go before any secondary healers that could prevent a death from a DoT.
The issue is more with him *not* getting hit. If enemies decide to ignore him, there's not a lot meaningful he can do early in a fight especially if you ignore Rain and Punish. The most you could do is Suffer to try to draw fire but self-marks are not consistent.
As above, running a full support build does not offer much that the regular build doesn't. You can use Reclaim to negate DoTs and heal, you can use Endure to recover stress (albeit unsustainably), you can use Suffer to negate DoTs (but not as well as Reclaim) and to make Endure more sustainable, and if you ever take too much damage you can recover a ton of HP with Redeem.
So what does that get you? Virtually every build runs Redeem and virtually every build that isn't paired with Vestal runs Reclaim (though the usefulness of running Flag and Vestal together is questionable), so those are moot points. Suffer has almost the exact same function as Reclaim, and most of its effects can be emulated with a stress resist trinket or by camping if you needed to. Endure is the only thing not all Flag builds might be running, so you can simply swap Endure in and get most of the benefit of support Flag.
Unlike a Vestal you can run support Flag in the frontlines, but you can also run regular Flag in the frontlines. So why run a frontline support flag when you can just do a normal build?
Reclaim does heal for 125% of an unboosted Divine Grace in total, but if you want to get a hero out of a bad situation you need a lot of healing all at once so that they get out of range of an enemy's damage. Reclaim doesn't do that. If a hero is at 2 HP then the 4 HP you get from Reclaim won't do much to protect them unless they had a DoT (which a sufficiently strong heal would protect from anyway)--it still takes two attacks to kill that hero. There's also a chance of enemies acting before that hero gets an action, meaning you could potentially spend Flag's turn on a heal and then lose the hero anyway since the heal only kicks in when that hero gets a turn. Hence the need for an additional healer unlike Vestal who is run with enough healing bonuses to take heroes out of range of non-crits the moment she gets to act.
You can try to use it preemptively unlike other heals, but there's no guarantee that enemies will go for the enemy you tried to heal. If you didn't bring bonus bleed resist you may even just put the Flag in danger instead of the other hero since he's putting a decent bleed on himself.
Healing trinkets and frequent heals don't help if enemies decide to focus fire. Besides, if you're going to spam heals with an Occultist to try to get around his RNG you may as well just run a Vestal who is purpose-made for spamming heals.
I regularly run punish/sorrow/endure/exsanguinate, and even exsaguinate is about the PD making suffer redundant. Glass shard is nice. PD-OCC-HM-FLG, the backline cleaver.
Spoken like someone who hasn't tried it.
Not really, no, because heroes don't go from full to 0 in one hit. Further, low-HP heroes are fast. Also apply this to the previous point.
I twice ran JES-FLG-VES-HEL through the ruins because lol melee vestal. First one without divine grace or any +stun. No, this is not an efficient idea, but it works anyway.
In fact it's possible to guarantee it, albeit inefficiently. Can you work out how?
Could you kindly not, it hurts.
...thus still in range of the most dangerous situation, the crit-bleed, which FLGs laugh at. E.g. collectors. This is a point against the vestal. Even occultists win this one since sometimes getting them out of crit range is better than never doing so.
What, do you not bring stunners? I solo heal with an occultist all the time, and I consider catching a death's door debuff to be a failed run; only happens due to user error. To get a party with neither stunners nor offhealers you have to be doing it on purpose.
+2 speed is a lot, VES can't one-shot a slime, etc etc.
My mistake, I've corrected my post. I forget about his low HP buffs since I never deliberately trigger them.
What's the point of Exsang here, exactly? Why not run one of the heals? 3 extra bleed on a frontline-damage attack is nothing groundbreaking and running Reclaim or Redeem would let you support a bad heal on the Occultist better. Personally, I'd ditch Endure and Exsang for both so that both the Occ and the Flag can focus more on attacking, since PD stuns will give you tons of time to make sure the backline never gets a chance to stress (plus if you really need stress heals the party is semi-functional if the Occ and HM are swapped and HM is given his stress heal).
I've used Flagellant plenty and have seen plenty of scenarios where a character would have died had they not also been boosted by Battle Heal or Battlefield Bandage. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that having a hero below 20HP in a Champion dungeon when you can heal for at most 4 HP is a terrible situation.
You do understand how much RNG there is in SPD rolls, right? Unless you feel like securing an 8-SPD advantage against everything you encounter there's always a chance of this happening.
There's also the matter of it working in reverse: if the low-HP hero goes before both the Flag and the attack, then they don't get healed until their next turn, which gets them killed.
You've got a chance to heal exactly one person before enemies get to attack. Said enemies can then attack a hero that isn't the one person you are able to heal. Unless you're fighting enemies who can only hit your front ranks or you deliberately run less than 4 heroes, it's not possible.
You joke but trinkets that can prevent Reclaim bleeds aren't available until Champion missions, plus it's a lot harder to prevent bleeds on a Flag that isn't level 6 due to how bleed resist and Reclaim's bleed chance scale. Only real way to do so without accepting a 10-7% bleed chance with Clotter strats is to run Cleansing Crystal which also guarantees that your Flag has bad attacks.
Sure, Flag helps more with an uncommon (if difficult-to-prevent) situation, but that doesn't change the fact that he's worse at dealing with common situations. "Enemy crits and bleeds one hero" is a lot less likely than "grog smash twice". Also worth noting that the Flag is only superior if the hero is at very low HP or fighting a high-damage enemy. Most Vestal builds run enough healing bonuses to take heroes at 10+ HP outside of the crit range, too.
So sure, the Flag is slightly better (if still not good) at preventing bad situations against a Collector, but for the other 99% of the dungeon where you aren't fighting enemies that crit for 30 or 45+bleed the Vestal still wins out.
Did I say my strategies hit Death's Door?
You're unlikely to be oneshot on round 1 with a properly-built Occultist party but enemies are still pretty good at wiping out over half a hero's health regardless of how much you can stun. It's not unusual to get someone at 10HP on round 1 especially if you focus on stunning stress dealers instead of the enemy DPS units. Then it just takes 1 failed heal to be looking at a hero that's within easy 2shot range and can't receive a heal until the next turn.
Of course I run stunners with my Occultists, in fact I can afford more than with a healbot Occultist build because my Occultists aren't forced to spam heals and can afford to run stun/ACC trinkets.
+2 speed is a lot, VES can't one-shot a slime, etc etc. [/quote]
+2 SPD is a good bonus for healers but can be irrelevant if you fail a heal. It's really good for supporting his other skills, but we're talking about a healbot.
Occultist is inconsistent at oneshotting slimes on Darkest, can't do it at all on Bloodmoon without a crit or damage bonuses, and has worse base ACC than a Vestal. For that matter Occultist can't oneshot most enemies--you're cherrypicking a low-HP Eldritch enemy because it happens to be something Occultist might score a oneshot against.
It's a HOT. If it bothers you that much make it 8.
I already mentioned that heroes do not hit zero HP in one attack.
Then you heal them too. The enemies can either focus the injured hero, who is now healing, or else they hit the other hero who is also already healing. I wouldn't recommend running three GRs but as long as someone has more than 3 hp max it's going to be fine.
Reclaim 1 bleed chance 120 - 65% base resist - 15% collar - 30% blood charm = 10%. Guess you need one extra level to keep it at zero. Buy bandages for level 0. I keep wyrd reconstruction two levels behind until later. ProTip, never have reclaim at level 3, it's just bad.
Also HM-PD-CRU-FLG has a PD, so *raspberry*
"When you're in no danger even if you forgot to give your vestal trinkets, the FLG isn't quite as good." Well, yes I have to concede that point.
No that's pretty uncommon. Have to do something like bone general crit on a hellion after the herald buff, and that's three enemy slots taken up. I curse generals for this exact reason.
Double swordfish hit on a GR, one is a crit, she didn't dodge any, and you didn't stun/kill one of the fish even though you've got a lunging crit machine who is 1 hp away from being the squishiest hero.
Maybe a solo-healing FLG is bad versus a large corpse eater team? Need to make some special plans?
Are you playing in the dark? I certainly wouldn't try torchless solo healing occultist. At worst, OCC-BH-CRU-LEP. In the light, after I'd gone about 100 missions in a row without having to use the PD backup heal, I realized it's not necessary.
You shouldn't be taking noticeable risks of two shots by round 2. One enemy is dead. Another is stunned. Stun or kill another and the fight is decided in your favour, and that's worst-case scenario. Bone generals take up two slots so you're golden. Groupers can't focus three ranks all on one target, so again one stun or bonus death and you're fine. (Alt: you used blinding gas and can kind of do whatever else you want.) And so on.
+2 speed means your occultist is vastly more likely to heal before a problem develops. Your vestal is certainly better at dealing with a DD situation, but they're that much more likely to need to deal with it. Though if you play properly neither will deal with it.
Vestal can't even on a crit. OCC has nearly 1 in 4 crit chance. Further, kills in two hits even if he rolls minimum both times. Judgment's minimum damage is 4.
...and you're nitpicking the argument. There are a lot of eldritch enemies. Slimes in particular are a pain if not cleaned up. The knife always does 33% more damage than judgment and crits 9% more often. Why bring up 5 acc and not that? (43.5% more expected damage, 93.7% on eldritch.) The occultist heals well enough and does everything else better.
--
Fun fact: most of the enemy crit machines hit for 20, putting the FLG at 18, one hit away from DD but not low enough to heal himself, so he has to be healed by someone else. I see him hit 16 all the time. 15, not so much.
In that fight it's probably fine but with a new four-pack he's in genuine danger of being crit and then hit again, and then you're taking DD checks. ProTip: don't try to solve it by opening with exsanguinate.
Not if that Occ rolls a 0 you don't.
What exactly is your point? If someone is at low HP and needs to get out, you care about what you can heal now, not what you can heal 1-2 turns later when enemies have had their chance to score a kill.
Heroes could already be at low HP before they get hit. If someone hits Death's Door over the course of any number of attacks and your response is to Reclaim, they could still take another attack before the healed hero gets to act (unless enemies have no actions left and the healed hero does). Obviously a hero doesn't get dropped from full to 0 HP on the regular but if a hero is already damaged then this scenario can happen.
Then you've spent two of your Flagellant's turns on trying to recover and made him basically worthless for the fight, since his attacks also need time for him to work--a Flag that only gets to attack on turn 3 is probably not going to hit anything important and whatever he does hit will not live long enough to take much bleed damage.
Meanwhile the hero that actually got hit is recovering slowly because Reclaim is a HoT, so if enemies continue to focus fire them then there's a good chance of them dying unless you have secondary healers. That 4HP you gain from a reactive Reclaim is not going to stop much.
Why on earth would you use Eternity's Collar? That dumpsters your DoT chance just like Cleansing Crystal except you need to run two trinket slots to make it work instead of just one, so you don't even get the opportunity to make your bleed chance resemble something good with Bleed Amulet.
For that matter you could run Blood Charm+Garlic for much the same benefit with less awful bleed chance and the ability to level Reclaim properly.
Running underlevelled Wyrd also greatly increases the risk of 0 heals which IMO are more dangerous than the odd bleed.
Again, there are still periods of time where the Flag is bleeding. If the PD goes first you don't get a chance to remove the bleed until next round. Which potentially gives enemies a chance to focus the Flag, which potentially means he dies to his own bleed.
Battlefield Medicine is good for keeping the self-damage from Reclaim under control, but you can't ignore the fact that it's sticking a big bleed on someone who has little max HP to spare. Especially if you decide to open fights with it.
"When you're in no danger even if you forgot to give your vestal trinkets, the FLG isn't quite as good." Well, yes I have to concede that point.
[/quote]
You're using Mr. Free Gems as an example, dude. Nobody who can get to Champion thinks much of Collector--there are plenty of regular encounters that are worse.
No that's pretty uncommon. Have to do something like bone general crit on a hellion after the herald buff, and that's three enemy slots taken up. I curse generals for this exact reason.
Double swordfish hit on a GR, one is a crit, she didn't dodge any, and you didn't stun/kill one of the fish even though you've got a lunging crit machine who is 1 hp away from being the squishiest hero.
[/quote]
Plenty of things. For example a Bone Soldier crit plus a Bone Defender max roll hits for 34, which puts anyone with Vestal HP or worse at or below 10 (even Hellion is only at 12). The reverse (Defender crit, Soldier max roll) only does 2 less damage. As you've mentioned, the typical enemy crit machine crits for 20. Most enemies that aren't solely stress-inflicting can hit for around 10. Many squishy heroes are easy to drop to 10ish with just 1 crit+1 high roll and non-tanks aren't far behind.
Slapping a 4HP or even an 8HP roll if they get to act twice will still not be enough to stop the crit machine from putting them to Death's Door on their next action. Then it just takes one goblet or stress curse or axeblade or whatever to kill. Same deal for Wyrd: enemy hits for 30ish, you Wyrd on reaction, you roll badly, enemies finish.
You can say "oh just stun and kill them lol" but really, you're probably not going to gun for those first, you're going to whack the wine skeletons--after all you're going to take unsustainable stress if you don't, especially if you've been stacking Endure stress on your Flag and drawing attention from the stress dealers. Doubly so if you're fighting something like CC enemies where you can't consistently outspeed them and have to deal with 50-HP 30% PROT bleed-wielding backliners.
Not saying Vestal is a perfect solution to these either, obviously you're better off trying to prevent them using Flag's damage or Occ's support than trying to heal. But if you're running solo Occ/Flag these situations are very lethal and you don't have any defense against them for when they happen--even if you can make them happen less often
See, that's the thing... if you're playing properly you're using Occultist's actions on stuns and support skills and maybe attacks depending on your build, because he's better at support than healing. But you're suggesting you play him like a Vestal and spam heals, so your Occultist isn't doing the things that prevent bad situations. So you still run into them, you're just worse at dealing with them than Vestal is when they come.
Gambling on a sub-25% chance (because dodge) is a brilliant idea. Gambling on the 60% chance of both attacks hitting is also a brilliant idea.
Occultist would be better off going for the stun (+10 relative ACC with only a 15% fail chance with Demon's) than using stab. Vestal can't do much because it's Vestal but if somebody else rolls short then she can step in with Judgement.
Because A) the knife is still bad relative to other heroes when not fighting eldritch, especially if not running ACC, and B) Judgement can hit rank 4. As an aside, it's also ranged and works in rank 4 so it's boosted by Natural Eye, Ancestor's Pistol and Prophet's Eye whereas Stab isn't--not super relevant if comparing healbot Vestal to healing+whatever trinket Occ, but it's something.
Both skills mostly function as a means to clean up nearly-dead enemies unless you're specifically running a damage build on the Occ. Your Occ is running a healing bonus so they're not running a damage build. Judgement is generally better at cleaning up near-dead enemies since you don't need much damage to do that anyway and the improved range+ACC makes it more consistent and versatile for cleaning trash than Stab's marginal damage bonus. Both are wretched without bonus ACC though so I don't consider the finer points of each skill to be of much relevance unless you took the time to put an ACC trinket on either hero (in the case of Occ, that would mean ditching Pistol if you were using it).
Obviously, if you optimize for it Stab is way better (although still not good relative to most regular heroes unless fighting Eldritch). The main reason I don't consider Stab's damage bonus is because even if better than Judgement, it'll miss constantly and tickles on a low roll--better to use one of his more consistent skills, i.e. Hands or Vulnerability Hex if you have mark heroes.
They actually can, though. Rank 3/4 spearfishes and then 1/2 can hit them in the front. You should always bring a Cove team that is fast enough that this never happens because you've, at worst, already killed one of the back ones and stunned another.
Luckily there's PD and blinding gas and that should never, ever happen.
You're right, he instantly suffers a heart attack and dies if that happens. Mea culpa.
I don't run dodge parties. In 2 turns the enemies are dead, not hitting me twice.
It's a very bad idea to enter fights under full health with a FLG main healing for this exact reason.
Healing is worthless. Neat.
I'm not. Care to try again? What could I have possibly meant by a -bleed collar?
If the PD goes first I use blinding gas, so no, not really. There's also a crusader. I obviously need to explain what that means, but I can't be arsed.
Not really, no. Collector is more or less the worst case scenario for a FLG healer. You gonna address the corpse eating elephant in the room? I had hoped you knew something I didn't.
I can't remember that ever happening; too much can go wrong for the enemy. They both have to hit the same low-health target without dodges and the defender has to not defend, and so on. I didn't say impossible, I said uncommon.
Yeah, that's true. They won't, however, take any deathblow checks, which is the important part. Unless you're letting enemies live and stay unstunned.
Player error, not RNG.
I love nobles, they die so easily.
Don't try to solo FLG heal in CC. The enemies are vaguely dangerous. Do try PD-JES-♥♥♥-OCC, though, it thinks CC packs are adorable. I like how you imply chevaliers are fast. Mosquitos aren't critting anybody down.
If you're playing properly you take exsanguinate and redeem off the FLG because the occultist makes them redundant. In the ruins I'm going to start swapping battlefield medicine for suffer too.
Nobody needs healing. Then he crits the slime and nobody will come to need healing. Further you forgot the +5, it's 68%. Also why are you running a frontline, apparently non-healing occultist without +acc?
95% stun resist vs. 180% stun after class stun trinket. 78.6 chance to stun vs. 82.5 chance to hit once. Nearly kill slime, cherry tap with retribution or hound's harry or... Sometimes crit and get to kill the other slime too vs. almost completely wasting the crits. So yeah, brilliant, thanks. Always nice when the theorycrafting confirms what I was doing anyway.
Apparently this slime is your finger trap.
Sure can! Wait...is there anything an occultist has that can hit rank 4? It's almost like my response was predictable in advance...
(It's funny because you can run ancestor's scroll + sacrificial cauldron + warrior of light if you want. I don't normally, but I do sometimes.)
Hex is awful. Actually less reliable. Have to go first. Wastes OCC crits. With two rolls low ones can be compensated by high ones. Can't cherry tap properly without knife on the bar.
I've destroyed that thinking before. Go into a real fight. I used HM-OCC-♥♥♥-MAA. Use the OCC's regular attacks and then rerun the fight in your head using the mark instead. (ProTip use +acc on the OCC.) It occasionally breaks even, and is otherwise worse. Can't even use the prophet's eye or pistol because you want the OCC to go first. Can't drop the HM mark since prot stripping is so valuable. Hex is so bad.
As much as I loath quad-groupers, you can at least play around the fact that the front/back two can only hit the front/back two. Even with a FLG front/main healer, the guy is one of few candidates likely enough to go before them and bleed the suckers to death, whereas a Vestal will have to wait until last (unless you're plopping Chalice or something on her).
Occ can blow them up or contribute to the 'stuns stop you taking damage' mantra.