Why is Antiquarian so bad?

[Gazebo]

Seriously, this class brings absolutely nothing to dungeon. Not as good at stacking poison as PD, her heal is a joke, the only somewhat good thing is vapors, so you basically just spam them through the entire combat. And even that loses value in late game. So in the end, it's a wasted slot. Two wasted slots in fact, since you are required to babysit her all the time.

In return, you get more gold. Which you gonna waste on healing affliction, because you were going through dungeon with basically 2-3 heroes. And if she dies mid-quest, her passive immideatly goes away and you lose your bonus gold.

How am I supposed to get one to level 6 to complete challenge? Can we ask for better or none Antiquarian in DD 2? Why did Red Hook make such ass hero?

[RopeDrink]

Antiquarian is bad? That's news to me.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1095632449

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1663412923

But seriously, she's not as bad as you might think despite Red Hook's intention of having her be a poor combatant.

I loathe dodge-comps, yet she's very popular in them. I believe the highest-scoring endless run (before the changes) was Ant-Ant-Maa-Maa with thousands of kills.

If you, like me, can't stand the idea of dodge-comps, then there are other worthwhile strategies you can use, such as a basic ProtMe-Riposte comp.

Another thing you need to be aware of is that despite her lack of potency, almost everything she does provides mini-buffs. With specific trinkets, you can make her healing comparible to an ARB/MUS bandage, which isn't bad, and it also provides DoT resistances. Her blight may not be the most potent, but it can hit any rank and also debuffs blight-resistance. She can de-stealth, which isn't vital but still handy, and happens to be quite speedy, plus various other quirks - but primarily, she is your go-to for phat lewt and that is the way it is.

In short, she's not there to win you a DPS or Sustain race, but if you're struggling to get one to level 6 then we'll definitely have to review how you're playing them (or who you're playing them with).

I stack Antiquarians quite regularly and use them very frequently, beit for gold or just for fun. It's not difficult to complete dungeons of any difficulty while using them. I'd start by reviewing the comps you're building around them, because while I must repeat that I do not find them that bad in combat, you still do need to account for the fact that one slot is being taken by a hero that is designed to not be as strong as the rest, so if the 'rest' suck, she's going to suck more.

[Gazebo]

Originally posted by RopeDrink:

In short, she's not there to win you a DPS or Sustain race, but if you're struggling to get one to level 6 then we'll definitely have to review how you're playing them (or who you're playing them with).

I prefer aggro comps that can hit at any position and move around. I also came to learn that stuns are very very important. So say for Ruins I run Vestal/Crusader/Shieldbreaker/MaA. Got stuns, got back row attacks, got ways to reposition in case of shuffle. I also really love marking comp (Arb/HM/Occ/BH), works wonder on bosses. So basically i value high damage, mobility, variety of possible targets and stuns. You can see that Antiquarian is as far away from that as it gets. If I don't drop at least 1 enemy per round, the comp is considered inoptimal.

(Also I'm mad that I lost lvl 5 antiquarian in last battle of dungeon because OF COURSE she was focused by everyone and OF COURSE she failed the very first deathblow test. And now that I think of it, I didn't make use of Guard me at all, maybe that was my mistake).

[No One]

Originally posted by RopeDrink:

Another thing you need to be aware of is that despite her lack of potency, almost everything she does provides mini-buffs.

If parties were FF4 with five characters instead of FF5-6 with four, I might run ATQ in nearly every party.

In return, you get more gold. Which you gonna waste on healing affliction

I killed champion prophet with my ATQ party. That estate had more gold than I could spend, and that was before the bank existed.

[Davrick]

Protect Me is a ridiculously useful skill. Not just for keeping your Antiquarian alive, either; it focuses damage on a single character, which makes healing easier, and it gives the protecting character +Dodge and +Prot, so they're taking less damage overall. It also combines really well with Riposte. Make better use of Protect Me and you'll come to love the Antiquarian.

[Panfilo]

Protect Me lets a tank actually tank. It makes self buffs like Withstand or Bulwark considerably more effective and is amazing with a riposite hero. It's a great way to keep her alive. Her AOE dodge buff works great against AOE enemy abilities like sweeping fire or boar rush.

Her camp skills aren't too shabby either. She's gets one of the biggest self stress heals, next to flagellant, and you have a chance at getting a decent trinket. Her own trinkets are also pretty useful.

Outside of that, since she's not really a powerhouse then it means you can throw 'utility' trinkets on her. Ancestors map +lantern benefit your party without really gimping the Antiquarian in the process. This means setting up her own quirks can be fun too, you can stick with Generalist quirks that benefit everyone instead of solely making her more killy. This also means the few diseases that have buffs can kind of benefit her. If you're spamming protect me /vapors all the time anyway, then Grey Rot and the Yips are actually beneficial.

I particularly like taking her on 'activate' quests because you already lose 3 inventory slots and might end up taking the whole map to find all the quest curios. The extra stacking really helps offset the opportunity cost.

[LinkR87]

It's kind a risk reward with a dash of luck. Not every run is the same. I have had runs that go almost too well with an anti in tow and you start to reeeealy hate the inventory limit. That's the monkey's paw scenario you get for all that loot.

[Justice]

The whole point of Antiquarian is to get you more loot. She wasn't meant to be a good fighter. It's all intentional design

[Actimel]

There is no BAD or GOOD heroes in here, its just what people are used to play and can make it through entire game. People are laughing when I say, Leper is good, and im making the entire game without any looses, nor heroes nor HP in the final fights, no stress, no nothing. Im clearing the entire game with Leper as my main damager and people find it funny, so what Im gonna bet my 2 cents here, there is no good or bad heroes

[Skinny Pete]

The super basic strategy with ANT is just spam Protect Me on a HWM and always having Riposte on. It makes her actually useful and about half of all enemy attacks get shoved right back down their throats.

Another tactic is making her super dodgy and spamming Invigorating Vapors. This isn't as powerful as ANT/HWM but is fun to do sometimes.

Also throw a healing trinket on her and she moves from a nearly useless healer (other than DD rescues) to a mediocre healer.

Also don't underestimate her utility as a finisher for already weakened enemies. Her attack is weak but she can do it from anywhere and hit three ranks with it so. . .meh. . .but use it when you can.

[TSense]

"Oh man, I got high level heros and I am really good at this game, knowing most enemy skills down to the numbers in my head - and I still have to grind for gold.

If only there was some sort of reward for bringing only 3 fighters to a dungon or something..." -Betatester

[Skinny Pete]

Originally posted by TSense:

"Oh man, I got high level heros and I am really good at this game, knowing most enemy skills down to the numbers in my head - and I still have to grind for gold.

If only there was some sort of reward for bringing only 3 fighters to a dungon or something..." -Betatester

If ANT weren't weak her special ability would make her ludicrously OP.

[RoboSauce]

Originally posted by Skinny Pete:

The super basic strategy with ANT is just spam Protect Me on a HWM and always having Riposte on. It makes her actually useful and about half of all enemy attacks get shoved right back down their throats.

Another tactic is making her super dodgy and spamming Invigorating Vapors. This isn't as powerful as ANT/HWM but is fun to do sometimes.

Also throw a healing trinket on her and she moves from a nearly useless healer (other than DD rescues) to a mediocre healer.

Also don't underestimate her utility as a finisher for already weakened enemies. Her attack is weak but she can do it from anywhere and hit three ranks with it so. . .meh. . .but use it when you can.

Yep this right here- she is a good finisher that allows damage dealers to get more work done. I think she is fun, but only use her in the short 90% exploration dungeons, mostly because you can only carry so much.

[Uncle Al]

Originally posted by RoboSauce:

I think she is fun, but only use her in the short 90% exploration dungeons, mostly because you can only carry so much.

She's actually really good in long runs. Take enough provisions to activate every single curio you're going to find, and don't bother keeping anything except high value gems (sapphire/ruby) and her two antiquity types until you start making room naturally in your inventory.

Yes you can only carry so much but her antiquities stack incredibly high (20x500g and 5x1000g) so that's where you make your money.

Add to this that you can use trinket scrounge twice in a long dungeon. Sure mostly it gives you junk, but it will drop rare and very rare trinkets occasionally. It also seems level independent. I've got as many rare drops with low level antiquarians as high level ones.

[RopeDrink]

People are laughing when I say, Leper is good, and im making the entire game without any looses, nor heroes nor HP in the final fights, no stress, no nothing. Im clearing the entire game with Leper as my main damager and people find it funny, so what Im gonna bet my 2 cents here, there is no good or bad heroes

This is a misconception. Leper is good. The issue is that mostly everything is better due to the meta, but this is only worth debating on matters of efficiency. In the end, the gap between all heroes is relatively tight, so when people call Leper the worst combatant in the game (which he is by miles), that isn't the same as saying he's awful.

You can play double-Leper comp if you like and can probably do pretty well with it, even beat the game, but that doesn't change the fact that doing so is extremely inefficient compared to almost any other alternative, which (again) only matters when discussing the meta.

Same logic applies to an Antiquarian, except for the fact that the ANT was specifically designed to be a weaker combatant for different perks, whereas Leper suffers (unintentionally) because his design is the least suited to the meta. You can just as easily beat the game whilst using (or even stacking) Antiquarians - it is entirely possible - but the efficiency of doing so is only worth debating from a meta-standpoint.

I've completed many dungeons on Vet and Champ with comps like Triple-ANT + Random, but that doesn't stop me from recognizing the simple fact that this is infinitely easier to achieve with a proper comp. In short, you beating the game or not losing heroes while using X or Y, by itself, doesn't actually mean anything in relation to the discussions you are referring to.

If you don't care about meta then it doesn't matter - meta is NOT required to win or have fun - but don't be one of those people who mistake all meta-talk as 'laughing at people for not playing meta', as that is rarely the context of such discussions. You will find that quite a lot of Leper-critics (myself included) don't actually dislike the Leper.

[No One]

Originally posted by RopeDrink:

only worth debating from a meta-standpoint.

Not only that. Many players struggle with this game, and if they're using lepers they're making it worse.

The leper may not be unintentionally bad. His name is 'leper' after all. Part of the RNG of the game is getting bad rolls at the stagecoach. See also: pep talk.

Ideally you would get mediocre heroes and good trinkets or something like that, so each playthrough would be about solving a slightly different problem. Although in practice I just wait until the stagecoach gives me who I want.