Monsters Surprised... Actually sucks

[GarbageCollector]

Especially considering most of the characters that increase the odds of it happening are glass cannons, and the people to heal them are often slower than a lot of enemies. Nothing quite like getting hexed, treebranch smackdowned, then hexed again before your dudes get a turn in between.

Are there any trinkets currently that actually reduce probability of the monsters being surprised? Classes? Actually gives me a decent idea for some mods...

[Skinny Pete]

Some of the backer trinkets do it, so it's possible. I can't think of a normal thing that decreases it.

[Mike Loeven]

I think there is also some funkyness going on in how turn order is calculated .... I have on many occisions had certain characters go out of order or have a monster somehow aquire multiple turns in a row dispite their speeds being lower than the hero in question

[GarbageCollector]

Originally posted by Mike Loeven:

I think there is also some funkyness going on in how turn order is calculated .... I have on many occisions had certain characters go out of order or have a monster somehow aquire multiple turns in a row dispite their speeds being lower than the hero in question

I was under the impression this was intentional. At the start of each turn everyone gets 1d8 added to their speed before the turn order is established. Theoretically the only assured turn order is if someone is 9 speed faster than someone else, but that's kinda rare.

It can definitely all play into the same problem though. Given the way death's door works in this game, basically turning every move in pokemon's false swipe, having more enemies take turns in a row is actually far more likely to be catastrophic than spreading it out between turns your party takes, even if it means them going second. That's basically why I think "monsters surprised" ends up way more likely to screw you in the long run, than it is to help.

A balanced team can counter sustain forever and let you respond, but if you give RNG that chance, eventually it's gonna roll 10 natural 20s in a row and crit one of your dudes into oblivion.

[Mike Loeven]

Worst speed based BS I ever encountered was when I Wiped in Darkest with a team of L6's fully upgraded because I got surprised and all 4 cultists gave my vestal "the finger" instantly removing my healing capability

[GarbageCollector]

Originally posted by Mike Loeven:

Worst speed based BS I ever encountered was when I Wiped in Darkest with a team of L6's fully upgraded because I got surprised and all 4 cultists gave my vestal "the finger" instantly removing my healing capability

Ouch. I feel ya. 4 Cultist Priests? Rough.

Idk if their targeting is fully random, but if it is, that 25%^4, or just below a .4% chance of them pulling that off. Add the possiblity of dodges in there and you're looking at a true miracle of horribleness.

[Blastom]

The drawback, as far as I noticed, is that for some slow parties, the monsters will move twice (one at turn 1 end, one at turn 2 begin) in a row after the alpha strike, which can result in burst damage taken.

Generally for most parties, monster surprise means a couple of monsters will be killed before them can act, which is always good.

So if your party is built with glass cannon, you should be able to kill more than half of the enemy party in alpha strike. I think the main point is that your party may under geared or under skilled for that dungeon. Getting some upgrades from the blacksmith or guild may make you love monster surprised.

[GarbageCollector]

Originally posted by Blastom:

The drawback, as far as I noticed, is that for some slow parties, the monsters will move twice (one at turn 1 end, one at turn 2 begin) in a row after the alpha strike, which can result in burst damage taken.

Generally for most parties, monster surprise means a couple of monsters will be killed before them can act, which is always good.

Yep exactly. If the enemies are weak enough or your party is bursty enough, you can usually capitalize on the surprise, but it's virtually impossible to kill all or sometimes even just one of the enemies in one turn, with certain types of parties. Giant + 2 artilleries or an artillery and a crone is brutal, at least for my party most of the time.

[Blastom]

Originally posted by smokytehbear:

Originally posted by Blastom:

The drawback, as far as I noticed, is that for some slow parties, the monsters will move twice (one at turn 1 end, one at turn 2 begin) in a row after the alpha strike, which can result in burst damage taken.

Generally for most parties, monster surprise means a couple of monsters will be killed before them can act, which is always good.

Yep exactly. If the enemies are weak enough or your party is bursty enough, you can usually capitalize on the surprise, but it's virtually impossible to kill all or sometimes even just one of the enemies in one turn, with certain types of parties. Giant + 2 artilleries or an artillery and a crone is brutal, at least for my party most of the time.

Giant is crazy :) and why weald is the worst dungeon.

[GarbageCollector]

Originally posted by Blastom:

Giant is crazy :) and why weald is the worst dungeon.

You can say that again. He's not even supposed to be the superminion! The virago is. Giant is worse than virago, skiver, bone bearer, and squiffy ghast imho.

[Blastom]

There're difficulty spike at the first several times to level 3 and level 5 dungeons, especially for the weald.

[Blastom]

Originally posted by smokytehbear:

Originally posted by Blastom:

Giant is crazy :) and why weald is the worst dungeon.

You can say that again. He's not even supposed to be the superminion! The virago is. Giant is worse than virago, skiver, bone bearer, and squiffy ghast imho.

There'll be another super minion at level 5 in weald

[GarbageCollector]

You talking about the big slimes?

[Blastom]

Originally posted by smokytehbear:

You talking about the big slimes?

Worse than them

[Sir Francis]

Originally posted by smokytehbear:

Especially considering most of the characters that increase the odds of it happening are glass cannons,

No character just passively increases monster surprises.
If you mean camp skills, sure, but these heroes are usuall fast and have high damage, so when you surprise: (average battle)
1) half the enemies die before they get to move, another one gets stunned.
2) enemies act once (1-2 actions)
3) your fast team members go first on 2nd round bc the fast enemies are already dead
4) you continue to stomp

If this is not your average experience with surprises then your party is way too slow, defensive, not enough burst (insert synonym for "horrendous" here)

[GarbageCollector]

I think you're missing my point. It is my AVERAGE experience.

Rarely however, something goes wrong with this and you get stuck with monsters taking simultaneous turns in a row. It opens an opportunity for disaster.

My point most broadly is simply that it can be more dangerous than normal for monsters to take consecutive turns, even if it means them going second.

This game's long term progress is not about winning big, it's about not losing. In later levels with tough and/or fast enemies I find monsters surprised events tend to result in bigger unnecessary successes but also a very small increase in probability of catastrophic failure.