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Now he can gain it even while stress relieving or buffing the group, not just by damage. It's a good way of 'building a nuclear weapon in your pocket and keeping it for later' option. I personally always play with Dirk, Harvest, Buff & SHeal for endless waves, and swap out Dirk for Finale when I know a boss fight is around the corner. For general content I just go with Dirk, Harvest, Slice and SHeal to maximize his interaction with the middle-ranks. The buff is only worth it to polish off the tiny few percent miss-chance you might have, but mostly if you're not wearing ACC trinkets (which most people would be).
His move-set is fine.
You're late to the party about Holy Lance, ancient news at this point. My typical endless comp is VES>JES>HWM>SB -- 3/4 of them can dance through the ranks, so only one has an issue if shuffled too far. This is old hat by now - you'd be better off with two Crusaders doing that seeing as the JES likes to dictate when he moves due to his SHeal and Buff positioning restriction, whereas a CRU doesn't care whether he's moved or left behind.
Anyways my gripe was that slice and harvest are way too similar - sure someone could say it’s like the Leper having slash and hew, but unlike a high DP character that must be restricted to front row damage the Jester should be more interesting (He is the most brightest, extravagant hero - yet is move-set has two repetitive moves on it).
Furthermore, what separates and distinguishes heroes from one another over stats is their move-sets, and I feel like having two similar moves on a single hero is a waste. As someone who develops character mods this feels like a major waste as Red Hook have not fully tapped into what they can make a hero do in the context of their game's parameters.
-- I was about to write a few move ideas to get you a general gist of how you can add a move into the move-slot that not only makes the hero gameplay wise more distinguish but also fit within his world character, but then I realised that’d be putting too much effort into a steam discussion.
Anyways, in conclusion, there are so many interesting things you could of done with a thematically really out of place character but they decided I was more better to just make him a one time enemy removal which turns into a mediocre support with a less-then mediocre damage pool.
Edit: [Just did some censoring so steam won’t put those annoying censor hearts.]
Slice/Harv are only similar due to both being a bleed ability. It's like comparing Chop to Hew on a Leper - both being an impact attack, one ST, one AoE. There is still a huge difference between the application of an AoE attack for 50% damage, and a ST attack that is closer to being baseline. Harvest is great as a harass button vs stealthers or for finishing off enemies while still effecting another on the board. His ST version is better as a projective attack that happens to also cause bleed, so if you absolutely want to kill that R3 enemy but don't want to move, Slice. The 30'ish percent lower damage is often off-set by the fact it has a 5pt bleed, so while his overall raw impact-damage is not amazing, it's nice having a range of options that don't boil down to 'just spam Dirk'.
There are an infinite number of times either Dirk, Harvest or Slice are the better options. I do not see them as similar in any way other than him having two bleed skills. It is a sub-role overshadowed by the main reason you even have him there - to heal stress - and Finale is the middle-ground that lets him play whatever way he wants and still generate a respectable nuke button inbetween.
He's better now than he's ever been if you ask me.
He has good bleeds, AoE, an attack that completely IGNORES guard, a pocket-nuke, one of the best buffs in the game, the best stress-heal in the game, and all this on one of the most mobile heroes on the roster. Improving his middle-ground abilities would make him pretty obnoxious. Some would say he is already. Despite all that, Harvest and Slice are two of my most used Jester buttons. They could be improved, sure, but I wouldn't change them.
Second one first second one..
Second first but before the last.
I'm going to bed
it's not a question of fine or not fine in game balance terms
op's just saying the move could be more interesting
let's use one of them thar aardvark analogies
op: "i feel this could use some tarragon and roasted vegetables on the side"
response: "oatmeal is nutritious, enjoy oatmeal, nothing wrong with oatmeal"
but the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ censor hearts are the best part
My reply indicates I did, yes. My opinion doesn't change. They are only similar because hey, bleed. He already has three movement skills, one of which ignores guard, two obnoxiously good utility abilities, one of which has him as one of the most utilized heroes thanks to the importance of stress, and the other almost equal thanks to the crit-changes.
He has an ST bleed, an AoE bleed (both of which are his only stationary offense), and an AoE debuff/setup for his pocket nuclear weapon -- all of which is buffed by any of the previously mentioned skills. Is this not extravagant enough? He is at no loss just because he has an ST+AoE bleed, hence why we've both have pointed to things like the Leper.
Hell, you can run comparisons between it and HM's ST & AoE bleed. Hell, we can compare it to CRU's Smite & Scroll. Hell, we can compare it to SB's SnakeBlight and Impale Blight. Hell, we can compare it to BH having pretty much two similar impact-attacks that only vary based on whether the target is marked or stunned, or the fact he has a ranged ST stun and a melee ST stun. Hell, we can compare it to GR having an ST dagger and AoE dagger. Hell, we can compare it to the PD having ST blight and AoE blight.
All heroes can rightly fall into your category one way or another - does this warrant change? More flavour? They're all completely different already in their own unique way as it is and each fill vastly different functions, but will also come with somewhat similar skills due to how the game is designed.
Again, my TLDR was 'He's fine'. It's not an insightful or fruitful answer, but the last thing I could care about is the similarity between an ST and AoE attack, bleed or not. Their application/use is still quite different thanks to stealth and bleed-stack. I'd understand the point more if it was back in the day when factors such as stealth/endless didn't exist AND DoT's on the whole were completely sub-par, but right now? No, I'd rather keep what he has because their usage/benefit is very different, regardless of how similar one may call them.
But hey, that might just be me. I'll stop here. Maybe others feel differently, but I just don't see the problem.
However where the jester is really strong is vs size 2 since that size 2 will always overlap with another position in a group of 4 enemies. I also have teamed him up with abomination and since they're both fast the middle two enemies usually die on their first round when they tick for ~8 dmg on their turn.
But in general I get your complaints, he seems like a very average fighter for normal engagements which are over quick, before his buff amounts to that much. On a long boss fight though that buff gets a lot of use and then you can dirk forward one move and land a super strong finale. I just kind of struggle with how to use him. If he's mainly a buffer for your team, you still need heals like a vestal, then I find my team somewhat lacking damage.
If slice off could hit position 4 I'd be all about it. Or if it did way less bleed dmg like the hound masters 2 per round for 3 rounds but it did 90-100% of dmg. Dirk would only be good then for moving forward to use finale or to bypass guard but I feel like that's ok.
And I disagree on vestal not being offensive. Of course she's not the best dmg, but she holds her own just fine for the utility she brings. Have you ran vestal in 2nd position? She does a lot of dmg, especially vs unholy. Her main drawback is she can't use the single target heal from there, so I usually only do this with a backup healer like crusader (really strong those two in ruins) or an arbalest to buff healing. If you want to run a stress healing hound master but double ranged party the hound master has to be 3rd or 4th and second ranged guy is usually 3rd, like arbalest, hound master, vestal, leper/crusader/man at arms/bounty hunter. Then all can self heal if vestals aoe isn't keeping up or with bounty they all mark for each other. Hound master position 2 is viable but you lose access to the stress heal for longer boss fights.
Closing thoughts, has anyone tried jester + man at arms for double accuracy buff on a fight like the shreiker? You only get 4 rounds to kill that stupid bird, and it has 62 dodge on champ. So even with like focus and sun ring you're at +15, for something like bounty hunter he has 105 on collect bounty. That's 125 base with the games hidden +5, then +10 for the opening round of buffs is 135, if you land an occultist mark bird drops to 42, so you'd hit like ~90% of the time with that setup. I don't know if it has enough damage though. Bird bleed resist is very high so the jester isn't doing that much until he burns finale. Maybe you drop the man at arms and add a second dmg dealer like arbalest or houndmaster.
I just typical either run a partial mark or high DP team for the shriker - just target the nest if you're having issues with accuracy.
POS 2 Vestal is more of gimick than anything else, like you said, you give up high-healing but also the ability to hit the back row hard for a half-decent melee attack/some kinda eh spells. There are many heroes that can take up POS 2 and do that job way better than the Vestal, and also you really need to focus enemy POS 3/4 (stress dealers) during the first few rounds in most fights so I'd rather run judgement.
Not really. Their SHeals work very differently, with the lesser SHealer compensating with flexible projections, an actual stun, self-heal and being a marker. As nice as all that is, he is to stress-healing what the OCC is to healing - unreliable - hence the JES sees a lot more use in that role much like the VES does for healing. It's also ironic that both OCC and HM function better up-front compared to VES/JES, which just adds to the pile of similarities in the mix.
They are the king and queen of their respective duty (when in their meta-position), which tends to translate to being specialists with weak alternatives, while the generalists like OCC/HM by comparison have more rounded kits but don't excel at anything in particular.
As it should be. The fact he has a better pocket-nuke compared to before is a big plus compared to his past version, but he should NOT be a killing machine in general when he's already gross in a SHeal role. Same applies to a Vestal. She has good sniping and access to a mostly reliable stun, but if you overtuned her more (whilst remanining the best healer), then there is even less reason to consider anything else, ever. Most people don't even consider CRU or HM for SHeals anymore, and you'd be insane to rely on a lone OCC or MUS/ARB as a Healer.
The cost of taking that potency is that they're lesser in other spots (usually). R2 Vestal, even with all the R2 trinkets in the game, will not compete, nor will a damage-orientated Jester forgoing stress-healing when there are just better options. This doesn't apply as much to OCC/HM due to their versatility.
A lot of these things are prevelant with many classes. Most of the LEP's weaknesses can be called a karma-bomb for having the highest base-damage. It'd be nonsensical for him to have whopping projection and mobility with his base-damage and +buff potential. You can't have your cake and eat it. Want the best ST stress-heals? Then you'll be doing it at the cost of tools the alternatives provide. Same with healing etc.
Here's the thing, a maxed level Howl has a 74% chance of stress healing and targets the whole team. Rather than thinking about it like OCC with Wryd think about it like Divine Comfort from a Vestal, and since we're talking about stress you shouldn't be allowing your team to be hit by too much stress anyways, it makes way more sense to bring a HM who can not only team heal stress chip but also enact a major support/high DP hero (even if the jester has instant enemy removal).
Also, when thinking about stress healing you can't think of it as regular healing because you can take major precaution to preventing stress healing (few enemies can outright deal stress damage) - however it’s hard to prevent regular damage since every enemy in the game deals it. This is why the vestal's consistant healing is more favoured - people near or at DD can be taken out by any remaining enemies, whereas with stress its hard even accumilating it if you take out stress dalers. That is why I think that Jester's S-heal is amazing in the Darkest Dungeon quests (where stress damage as common as regular damage) but kind of useless anywhere else.
Anyways this is getting beside the point so if one anyone wants a tl;dr of my first point: Slice and Harvest way too similar - a way more interesting move could fill one of the two and it seems like waste to give a move-slot to something so repetitive.
You are over-selling. It has a chance to heal each individual, not the whole team, hence you cannot reliably de-stress people who need it the most, thus he is the OCC of stress-healing. Just like OCC vs VES with healing, HM has the potential to heal far more stress over the course of a run than a Jester, but it's simply not reliable.
The ARB/MUS has the version you describe: it either works for everyone (except her) or it doesn't work on anyone at all, ie. she rolls once. HM does a roll per hero and heals for 6 (unmodified) multiplied by 0-4. Jester will do 12 instantly on one hero with no questions asked and also applies a -stress buff on top of that, hence he is the VES of stress-healing -- the key word being consistency. I did not compare stress-healing to health-healing, just using common examples/memes relating to consistency to describe how HM/JES function in a stress-healing role.
For HM's to even be comparible: per cast he has to heal at least 2 people to reach 12 stress-healed, that's 2 out of 5 (0-1-2-3-4) and even then it doesn't come with the stress-buff JES provides. NOTE that I'm not saying he's a bad stress-healer, but the VES/OCC comparison does apply no matter how you try to cut it.
Most stress-healing situations boil down to particular heroes needing it more than others - HM sucks at this due to having no direct control. Nobody does it better than the JES due to potency and consistency. HM can't deliver without time & luck. I consider HM one of the stronger heroes in the game on average, but I'd still prefer a CRU s-healer over a HM in a lot of cases simply because having direct control is powerful in itself, even if the potency lacks.
Is that a joke? All crits cause stress and a hefty chunk of the bestiary has either flat stress-nukes or even a mix of health+stress damage - others resort to AoE stress + Horror. The average stress-nuke, even from weaker mobs, ranges from 12-18. Stress is the primary health-bar - you absolutely must treat it as such unless you're fishing for virtues.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1442004714
All it takes is a little stress-nuke focus and a HM or CRU has their work cut out for them, and one of those IS consistent. On top of that, if they are stress-healing then they are not helping to prevent more by attacking. A HM may help more in that aspect than a JES can, but by then the damage is probably already done.
90% of classes in the game have this supposed problem. Sounds like personal preference to me.
You went up against Darkest Dungeon enemies - I addressed that issue before
Even champion cultists (standard // non-darkest dungeon version) mark with their stress-nukes and provide similar problems - DD versions just chunk much harder and work better in tandem.
Hell, even a handful of sow-the-seeds on one hero will require attention no matter who you have, and if the HM doesn't luck-out on curing them over time, then it becomes a problem. Meanwhile, CRU/JES just target, press button, job done - JES more-so thanks to potency and buffs, hence he's so common in such a setting.
HM is much better in standard content given fights actually DO end and you can micro-manage inbetween. In endless, there is no grace period until the wave is done, and even a HM spamming nothing but Havoc/Stress-Heal may still miss out on healing those in actual need, just because it CAN happen, and doing this means he's not killing anything along the way, making his bad-rolls more noticable.