Duration of buffs/debuffs

[a.n.dre]

Greetings,
I have played hundreds of weeks on this game, and was attempting to figure out why the buffs to self were so bad. Theoretically, they are not even that bad at all, so why do they just absolutely fail to deliver ingame? Maybe what I am about to say has already been stated before, but I believe the lack of power from the self buffs comes from the fact that they never really last the 3 rounds they are "supposed" to. In-game, after you use a buff it says it will last for three rounds, but due to the game's per-round discount method, you get the last discount of the duration BEFORE you play, along with the "ticking" of damage over times, meaning you only get TWO effective rounds of the buffs. Same goes for debuffs, the enemies (or your warriors) get the discount when they play, meaning a 3 round debuff is only effectively debuffing TWO attacks. Since debuffs in this game are so strong I dont think this is disastrous, but the buffs really suffer from this. In the case of the leper, for instance, he would get the THREE full rounds of the debuff (the revenge debuff) but only 2 buffed attacks. I have tried this, I have seen it. Mathematically, many of the buffs have a powerful delayed effect, you spend a full round buffing to get bigger payoff at the end, a simple no-brainer. But the buffs really feel like they were meant to last for the full 3 round, otherwise they would just be terrible, as they are. So, was this meant by the developers, or did they overlook it?

[Reyggor]

I suppose the important part of buffs are the expected order of action in your team and if you're using offenive/defensive buffs, speed buffs for example actually do offer the full 3 turns worth of buffing as the turn order is determined before the characters act (obviously) and although the buff wears off before actions are taken the order of action is already decided, dodge will also offer buffs against all 3 rounds of incoming attacks for slower heroes.

Offensive buffs and single target buffs can lose some value however since as you noted they may only help on 2 attacks.

I tend to use a lot of AOE buffing/in party effects like healing/stress heal/guard, the only 'offensive' based buffs I would consider would be speed debuffing at the end of turn which would namely be Bellow for the Man-at-Arms, that being said he does have Bolster and 100% chance of +5 Speed is almost certainly better than 90% of +7 Speed; particularly if hitting that 90% chance involves +ACC/+Debuff chance trinkets over other trinket choices.

TL:DR Speed based AOE buffs are pretty damn useful, others I would question.

[Enfild]

Yeah, that sucks, why dont just make buffs/debuffs count in the end of your turn, rather than in the beginning? It will just make some skills more usefull without really unbalansing anything.

[a.n.dre]

Reyggor, I agree with the speed aoe buffing, especially "dat battle ballad", which also gives accuracy and crit. And yes, Bolster better than Bellow because those who tend to dodge Bellow, the ones with high dodge, are precisely the ones you really want to slow down, guys with really high speed who usually are the party-breaking stress dealers.
Enfild, I agree, and also believe that perhaps damage over time procs might make sense to count at the end, making at least grave robber not as uncomprehensibly squishy (toxin trickery please at least to increase defenses!)

[Reyggor]

Originally posted by Enfild:

Yeah, that sucks, why dont just make buffs/debuffs count in the end of your turn, rather than in the beginning? It will just make some skills more usefull without really unbalansing anything.

You would still only have 2 turns worth of buff as the buff would lose a round of buffing after using it on the round that you used it.... does that make sense? That sentence just looks wrong to me is all.

[Ruuuby]

Yea I've always had a problem with the duration of buffs. Never really find it worth it to spend a round buffing with for example the Helions adrenaline. There are good buffs like the Arbalists blindfire which is an attack + speed boost in one. If buffs were to last longer than I'd be more inclined to use them.

[Warchild698]

Self-buffs/debuffs should definitely tick off AFTER hero's turn.

[incarnite_azurnum]

Do note that multiple uses of a buff/debuff not only resets the duration but also stacks buff/debuff.

[No One]

It's a bit tedious, but it is simple to mod the game to make buffs last four rounds, effectively doing the same thing. ".duration 4" in the scripts/effects file in all the relevant places. It's a plain text file, and there are a few .duration examples if you want to look at them. (Bulwark has .duration 1 which is supposed to affect the mark but also affects the buff....)

If you make a typo the game won't load, so probably best to keep a spare unmodified copy.

Revenge will still be bad. Total damage profit: 20%. I suppose that's not negative like it is now, but it's really not worth the debuff...and especially not worth waiting a turn to kill something.

Debuffs are still pretty bad, because in most cases if something manages to live for three rounds and get three actions, you're doing it wrong. There's a few niche uses.

[Reyggor]

Originally posted by incarnite_azurnum:

Do note that multiple uses of a buff/debuff not only resets the duration but also stacks buff/debuff.

This isn't quite true, the buff/debuff indicator may show 3 rounds remaining for all 3 stacks of buffing, but it'll reduce down the buff value each turn, for example;

If a Man-at-Arms uses Bolster for 3 consectutive turns with +5 Speed each time it'll show +15 Speed for 3 rounds on the indicator but the next turn it'll show +10 Speed for 2 rounds as one of the stacks falls off, the same situation is apparent if you look at Bleed/Blight damage.

If the stacks would be reset after each application we would theoretically be able to cycle up infinite buffs, which would be slightly overpowered.

[Sue]

I use buffs on a regular basis - especially if my party suprises the enemy. However, there are times where it's best if my party plows in and smashes the opponents e.g. grubs and spiders.

With how my party's buffs, bleed, blight and debuffs stack and moderate themselves after 3 rounds needs monitering and managing but, against boss monsters and tougher enemies, I find managing stacking invaluable. I don't have a problem with how buffs etc., function in relation to turns.

I do agree with Reyggor that infinite stacking would be overpowering.

[zverozvero]

Think it was ment that way - combat buffs either situational or devoted while lasting effects come only through curios and camping. Debuffs are prity much in same boat. Current state makes it maxed at 2 casts which is easier to balance.

[a.n.dre]

Revenge will still be bad. Total damage profit: 20%. I suppose that's not negative like it is now, but it's really not worth the debuff...and especially not worth waiting a turn to kill something.

Dont forget that crit in this game is much better than "on average" increase in damage, think about stress control. Also, accuracy is an effective increase in damage done, unless youre capped, which as a leper youre... never! Even with 2 rounds, Revenge is almost good, here's the math: 15 acc, 35% dmg, 5% crit. That, just on average damage is 55% damage per round (accuracy increase is directly expressed as higher prob of hitting, directly reflected on average percentage increase in damage). That means that revenge as is is STILL worth it, with an increase of 110% in damage, at the cost of one attack, overall payoff of 10%. BUT its better than that, because with enemy's high dodge, that attack that youre not performing could very well miss, and now that you have revenge the chance of connecting the attack is 15% higher. Also, the 5% increased crit really helps with stress control, or just instakilling an enemy. Yea, its crazy how revenge AS IS is still worth in some circumstances, mathmatically, of course not counting the often urgency to just getting rid of one enemy, but usually the front guys are to be just crushed, the back ones with stress'n'♥♥♥♥ are the ones that are urgent to wipe off asap.

[a.n.dre]

Sorry No One, im kinda noobish at this, the first part of the comment was a quote from your comment

[No One]

Originally posted by a.n.dre:

unless youre capped, which as a leper youre... never!

My lepers are all capped.

Originally posted by a.n.dre:

the back ones with stress'n'♥♥♥♥ are the ones that are urgent to wipe off asap.

Leper can't hit the back ones.

[a.n.dre]

How are your lepers capped in accuracy? Unless you bring 2 acc trinkets, but try that in hard dungeons and youll feel the pain. Also, exactly because Leper cant hit the back ones its ok for him to waste a turn buffing instead of worrying from the first round in quick-killing them.