[Spoilers] So, the real villian of the Bordrlands series is actually...

[Iris Heart]

Lilith. She created the Handsome Jack as we know him in the Borderlands 2. I know, he was morally degrading over the course of Pre-Sequel, but all of that was under pressuring circumstances, and what she did is just pushed him over the edge.

Given the right guidance, Jack could have become a whole different person.

Funny how she blames everything on and orders to kill Athena in the end, while being the only culprit behind this mess, proving how much I'm right on this one.

I hope we get a chance to kill this ♥♥♥♥♥ in the Borderlands 3 or something.

[Holo]

I think both characters bring out the worst in each other - although the ♥♥♥♥ Jack did in BL2 is inexcusable, no matter what the circumstances were.

Although Lilith wanting to kill Athena is a massive ♥♥♥♥♥ move. I mean, she lead the four originals into General Knoxx's armoury.

[Iris Heart]

Lilith literally killed all good that was left in him, in the BL2 he was already "dead".

[Leonard✌d'Moogle]

Lilith? The villian? .... You really weren't paying attention were you. Let me recap: Before the events of BL:TPS Jack had already caued the events of BL1, strangled (not choaked) someone who wasn't Tassider, imprisoned his daughter Angel on her "throne", and built a giant-a** death laser out of pieces of the destroyer. And that's all before he does all the evil **** in BL:TPS or BL2.

Is Lilith a murderous jerk? You bet! In fact all the vault hunters are murderous jerks, even CL4P-TP. Some, like Roland, are just more professional than others. Even then, there's a grand canyon sized split between the sins of Lilith and the sins of Jack.

[Leonard✌d'Moogle]

Originally posted by Evil Vyse:

So what if he caused the events of BL1? Guess what? If the 4 vault hunters hadn't opened the vault, somebody else would have. Hell, Commandant Steele was already there.
Jack simply took advantage of an opportunity.

Angel? Part of that was dickish, part of that was doing what he had to. She was a Siren who had just done something severly damaging to her own mother. He could either hide her, or let the authorities take her. Angel was screwed either way.

Choking someone? There's little evidence that suggests he did that before TPS

1) You know why they were looking for the vault in the first place? Jack. He even feeds angel their first line when they get off the bus in Fyrestone. So right off the bad he's messing with Lilith's life, and the lives of the other vault hunters.

2) I really object to the idea that abusing Angel as "something he had to do." Listen to that echo again. That's a frightened little girl that doesn't know what's going on, and Jack's forcering her into a cage that's she'll live in until the vault hunters of BL2 free her. Sirens are not unknown in this universe. He could have gotten help, he could have built her a safe but remote home until she chould control her abilities, ... there are dozens of possiblities, although which were viable and which weren't are unknown. What we do know is that he thought of his career and used her as a tool like he uses everyone else, and could not care less about her feelings or sanity.

3) He strangles two people in the logs of BL2. The second one was Tassider and we know aproximatedly when that happens in BL:TPS. Since the first one happened in a relatively peaceful meeting but in a time frame when his ex-wife is wherever she is, I subit to you it must have happened before the events of BL:TPS.

I'm sorry, Jack is not merely a jerk. He's also evil.

[Iris Heart]

Speaking of Angel, if you follow the clues of the Pre-Sequel, Jack didn't abused the Angel until the events of the Borderlands 2. Meaning he started it after the final encounter with Lilith.

[Leonard✌d'Moogle]

Originally posted by Perdita Weeks:

Speaking of Angel, if you follow the clues of the Pre-Sequel, Jack didn't abused the Angel until the events of the Borderlands 2. Meaning he started it after the final encounter with Lilith.

I'm curious, what clues? We know she's already trapped on her throne before BL:TPS, but he still looks at her picture on his desk until the event with The Guardian. Please keep in mind that she speaks in a small child's voice when he traps her, but she speaks with an adults voice not only to the VHs of BL1 but when she's recruiting the VHs of BL:TPS, so she's been trapped for awhile.

[Sed]

Still in the end... Jack wanted one thing, have control, which lead him to
1. Protect People from Bandits
2. Kill anyone who betray him without any second thoughts
3. Kill bandits.
He is not what you consider evil, yeah his ways to help and save people got messed up, but then again... look at all the people that were around him, He liked nisha because she shared his values, Taking down criminals and people who endanger other people, after all that... you cant just ignore jack and label him a Villain, You have to be really really pissed off after everybody turn to be a ♥♥♥♥ to you.
+ tassiler the CEO, is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ♥♥♥♥ to you the whole game, he doesnt care about people, he purely cares about money. Jack killed him just after he was forced to grow balls after all the betrayals that he suffered through the course of the game. IF one does not work with you, just eliminate that obstacule
+ His ex Gf betrays him and attemps to murder him. No wonder he tries to kill the vault hunters
+ The vault hunters help angel to basically commit suicide. No wonder he kills roland, Man, they respected eachother even though they didnt like eachother


So far The only REAL bad thing that jack has done, is to simply annihilate every single Cl4P TAP Unit. and most of them managed to kill themselves without his help.

[carloscgc]

Well, you have to pay attention to what Moxxi said when you destroy the laser.

Jack is handsome, Jack is clever, Jack thinks he is an hero, but behind all that he is a psychopath. From the start Jacks knows why all are behind him (and he doesn't tell you the truth), he wants the chamber for the weapons inside. You only need to see what side missions he gives you: build suicide and evil robots, he decides to destroy every claptrap just because he wants it (ok maybe he is right, here xD ), try to rebuild the eye (you can see he is losing it here, that "good" face is gone) fool someone to be shot from Helios.

He tries to give you the impression that he is the good guy (in all borderlands 2 he calls you bandit) but behind all that hero attitude something doesn't fit.

[YoloMoth]

A lot of his evil we can see through the things he did to his daughter. In a real world scenario it would be like his wife died while giving birth to his daughter, so he blames his daughter for everything, locks her in a box and abuses her till she does everything he says without question. Tell me he's a good guy. Tell me. (All of that happened before BL1) While I say that. Everyone else in Borderlands is no better. The major thing about borderlands is that you have three evils. You have corporate evil represented by all of the companies that abuse their workers and start wars, but they offer a different kind of security for each one.
Then you have the anarchist evil which is the vault hunters and bandits. General denizens of Pandora. Yeah they kill each other but they're all free. They aren't shackled by a company that doesn't have their best interests at heart.
Then you have the evil of the unknown, which could be no evil at all which is the Eridian side/vaults. While we don't know why they built them they all so far have been something that would be used in a war.

So while no one is right or wrong in the Borderlands universe, there are people who we ourselves will view as more in the right. The fact that everyone is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ insane generally makes the waters a bit murky. Even more so that the stories are told by unreliable narrators in each game.

[Iris Heart]

3 people he trusted just betrayed him, stabbed him in the back, and you want him to act like it's all nice and dandy? I would like to see you keep it up in the same situation

[Leonard✌d'Moogle]

Originally posted by carloscgc:

Well, you have to pay attention to what Moxxi said when you destroy the laser.

Jack is handsome, Jack is clever, Jack thinks he is an hero, but behind all that he is a psychopath. From the start Jacks knows why all are behind him (and he doesn't tell you the truth), he wants the chamber for the weapons inside. You only need to see what side missions he gives you: build suicide and evil robots, he decides to destroy every claptrap just because he wants it (ok maybe he is right, here xD ), try to rebuild the eye (you can see he is losing it here, that "good" face is gone) fool someone to be shot from Helios.

He tries to give you the impression that he is the good guy (in all borderlands 2 he calls you bandit) but behind all that hero attitude something doesn't fit.

Agreed.

Originally posted by reysednars:

He is not what you consider evil,

Yes, I do,

Originally posted by reysednars:

... yeah his ways to help and save people got messed up, but then again...

Let me stop you right there. When has he ever tried to help or save people except when it benifts him? With the possible and doubful exception of the moonshot at the start of BL:TPS, I can't think of it ever happening. Oh he says he's self sacrificing, much like he says he's a hero, but when has he actually done it? Everything his does is for his benifit and his benifit alone, and if it happens to help someone else along the way, he'll claim it to be heroic.

Originally posted by reysednars:

+ tassiler the CEO, is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ♥♥♥♥ to you the whole game, he doesnt care about people, he purely cares about money. Jack killed him just after he was forced to grow balls after all the betrayals that he suffered through the course of the game. IF one does not work with you, just eliminate that obstacule

You know what, I agree that killing Tassiter was a favor to the universe, but he did it for his own benifit, as above.

Originally posted by reysednars:

+ His ex Gf betrays him and attemps to murder him. No wonder he tries to kill the vault hunters

*tweeet* Misdirection, 15 yard penalty, still 2nd down. Moxie's sins are not on trial here. You can argue that her betrayal makes some of his later sins understandable, but they're still his sins. They don't absolve him of the cold blooded muder of the scientists. And before you ask, his killing of the Merrif was justifiable. The scientists, that was murder.

Originally posted by reysednars:

+ The vault hunters help angel to basically commit suicide. No wonder he kills roland, Man, they respected eachother even though they didnt like eachother

So tell me which is worse, the people who ended Angel's pain, or the guy who caused it in the first place.

Originally posted by reysednars:

So far The only REAL bad thing that jack has done, is to simply annihilate every single Cl4P TAP Unit. and most of them managed to kill themselves without his help.

Actualy, getting rid of the CL4P-TP steward bots was a favor to the universe, so I wouldn't call this his only real bad thing. It's not that bad compared to the child abuse and premeditated murder we know he commited, and god knows how many we don't know of. The building of the giagantic death laser was just the icing on the cake.

[Leonard✌d'Moogle]

Originally posted by Zaieed:

A lot of his evil we can see through the things he did to his daughter. In a real world scenario it would be like his wife died while giving birth to his daughter, so he blames his daughter for everything, locks her in a box and abuses her till she does everything he says without question. Tell me he's a good guy. Tell me.

*snip*

Woot! Someone gets it! There are no white hats in this game, only black hats, grey hats, and the dead.

[Leonard✌d'Moogle]

Originally posted by Evil Vyse:

If Jack is evil, then so is Lilith and everyone else in the series.

You know what, I can live with this. Different shades of evil, but still evil.

Mind you that doesn't put Lilith and Jack on the same level. A thief is not the same as a murderer.

[Leonard✌d'Moogle]

Originally posted by Evil Vyse:

Lilith not only created Handsome Jack,...

You know what, she did. When she punched Jack after he had commited years of child abuse, built a death laser, and murdered at least five people in cold blood, that punch must have changed him from Jack the murderous programmer to Handsome Jack the Hero of Hyperion. It certainly scared him for life. Made the outside match the inside. So yea, that's her sin. I guess it's true that you make your own nenesis because Jack's the only reason that the BL1 and BL2 valut hunters are here to begin with.

[Iris Heart]

Look at this Lil fanboy/Jack hater there :D