Economy pushes you towards cheese?

[Zoey ♡ω♡]

I have decided to play a infantry/balanced army as Vlandia. Im not just sure how to keep my army afloat, my prisoners which used to be pretty valuable seem to go for like 1 gold. I cant catch up to any bandits, because my army is slow asf. I am a mercenary so I am getting some small payments but its not much.
Ive only got like 40 troops at this point and most are low/med tier. Caravans and workshops are usually a negative investment somehow. Gives like 50 gold a day and costs 10K + another 2K to start it. And you cant even tell how much you are going to make, could be 10, could be 90, could be 2.
What am I doing wrong here.
I do NOT want to cheese.

[Fleinert]

Buy horses for your army.
foot soldiers will use them on campain map, they are marked as speed increase.
Buy workshops in town where they produce something that is lots of, like grain and make a brewery, but be sure the beer isnt allrdy isnt cheap.

Same with grapes into wine etc

There is allrdy plenty of guides on what to do with them.

Be advised.. maps change for each playthough so check up on what towns produce what etc.

[RJboxer]

The economy issues come up over and over. And usually then get hijacked by "smithing is cheating". Trolls.

Smithing is not cheating, the developers have LITERALLY changed the mechanics, and prices at least 10 times that I can remember. Always making the crafting a bit more challenging, and the sell price a bit less. (much much less recently).
You don't wanna use it? Cool. let's look at other ways. There are many.

1- Workshops are no longer trash. They aren't great, but can make much much more than "50" denars. Mine make roughly 200-370 per day each. And Im clan tier 4. so not late game. You might wanna search forums for "what workshops are best", or income threads. this is discussed all the time in these forums
2- Caravans seem to work now too. not great but not bad. For me, in patch 1.7 they go a long time without being caught. I tend to use my brother (to raise some of his stats) and he has scout/roguery/Trade I'm not sure how scout or roguery work.. or if they do. But I can say in old patches Caravans were TERRIBLE. now, my dude "flees and lives". a lot "stick and move Rocky, Stick and Move".
3- You can trade. Also discussed a lot in hundreds of prior threads. Aserai from Asker, selling in Vlandia or Empire does well. So does selling mules/sumpter horses. So does selling food sometimes. Lots of strategies for trade.
4- Fighting. Fight a lot. You shouldnt be ransoming "prisoners for 1 gold" (troops?) They go for 5 gold minimum, and eventually u can make 100k per offload. I have. Multiple times. But thats late late game
5- Lords. I tend to release ALL lords especially early on in game. But if u need cash.... even early game they go for 1500-3000 denars each. later they go for 8k to 20k. EACH. So thats some nice cash.
6- Selling all gear. ALL of it. Armor seems to be super prevalent (even trashy shirts) and you should be making thousands and thousands just selling those.

All of this stuff takes awhile to get up and running, but is possible. As a merc, Personally you got some choices. I tend to do no cavalry. I never chase looters.. pffft they are worthless. I will make archers and infantry and try to follow armies, or join armies.. and wait for fights. Then get my cash, my loot, my prisoners, my lords.. and sell it all. This gets u good money, AND didn't cost you cavalry to replace.

When I'm a vassal is when I really try to focus on money. and then u do the same stuff, but more. Smithing is a huge help. Sorry you think it is "cheese" or "not intended", or maybe even "the devs made a mistake for the last 20 months of game, even though they;ve tweaked it 20 times or more". That's cool. Don't use it.

many do.

[Zoey ♡ω♡]

Originally posted by RJboxer:

The economy issues come up over and over. And usually then get hijacked by "smithing is cheating". Trolls.

Smithing is not cheating, the developers have LITERALLY changed the mechanics, and prices at least 10 times that I can remember. Always making the crafting a bit more challenging, and the sell price a bit less. (much much less recently).
You don't wanna use it? Cool. let's look at other ways. There are many.

1- Workshops are no longer trash. They aren't great, but can make much much more than "50" denars. Mine make roughly 200-370 per day each. And Im clan tier 4. so not late game. You might wanna search forums for "what workshops are best", or income threads. this is discussed all the time in these forums
2- Caravans seem to work now too. not great but not bad. For me, in patch 1.7 they go a long time without being caught. I tend to use my brother (to raise some of his stats) and he has scout/roguery/Trade I'm not sure how scout or roguery work.. or if they do. But I can say in old patches Caravans were TERRIBLE. now, my dude "flees and lives". a lot "stick and move Rocky, Stick and Move".
3- You can trade. Also discussed a lot in hundreds of prior threads. Aserai from Asker, selling in Vlandia or Empire does well. So does selling mules/sumpter horses. So does selling food sometimes. Lots of strategies for trade.
4- Fighting. Fight a lot. You shouldnt be ransoming "prisoners for 1 gold" (troops?) They go for 5 gold minimum, and eventually u can make 100k per offload. I have. Multiple times. But thats late late game
5- Lords. I tend to release ALL lords especially early on in game. But if u need cash.... even early game they go for 1500-3000 denars each. later they go for 8k to 20k. EACH. So thats some nice cash.
6- Selling all gear. ALL of it. Armor seems to be super prevalent (even trashy shirts) and you should be making thousands and thousands just selling those.

All of this stuff takes awhile to get up and running, but is possible. As a merc, Personally you got some choices. I tend to do no cavalry. I never chase looters.. pffft they are worthless. I will make archers and infantry and try to follow armies, or join armies.. and wait for fights. Then get my cash, my loot, my prisoners, my lords.. and sell it all. This gets u good money, AND didn't cost you cavalry to replace.

When I'm a vassal is when I really try to focus on money. and then u do the same stuff, but more. Smithing is a huge help. Sorry you think it is "cheese" or "not intended", or maybe even "the devs made a mistake for the last 20 months of game, even though they;ve tweaked it 20 times or more". That's cool. Don't use it.

many do.

I will try smithing if its fixed now! I just didnt want my campaign to turn into smithing simulator like it did a while ago :P. I actually really like it I just limited myself before because of... yaknow. Ill also go ahead and try workshops again aswell! Im just stuck in this little period before I can actually take on enemy armies and am too slow to catch looters so I just get stuck and run out of money. Gonna restart tho and try again.

[RJboxer]

Originally posted by Felix_Zoey:

Originally posted by RJboxer:

The economy issues come up over and over. And usually then get hijacked by "smithing is cheating". Trolls.

Smithing is not cheating, the developers have LITERALLY changed the mechanics, and prices at least 10 times that I can remember. Always making the crafting a bit more challenging, and the sell price a bit less. (much much less recently).
You don't wanna use it? Cool. let's look at other ways. There are many.

1- Workshops are no longer trash. They aren't great, but can make much much more than "50" denars. Mine make roughly 200-370 per day each. And Im clan tier 4. so not late game. You might wanna search forums for "what workshops are best", or income threads. this is discussed all the time in these forums
2- Caravans seem to work now too. not great but not bad. For me, in patch 1.7 they go a long time without being caught. I tend to use my brother (to raise some of his stats) and he has scout/roguery/Trade I'm not sure how scout or roguery work.. or if they do. But I can say in old patches Caravans were TERRIBLE. now, my dude "flees and lives". a lot "stick and move Rocky, Stick and Move".
3- You can trade. Also discussed a lot in hundreds of prior threads. Aserai from Asker, selling in Vlandia or Empire does well. So does selling mules/sumpter horses. So does selling food sometimes. Lots of strategies for trade.
4- Fighting. Fight a lot. You shouldnt be ransoming "prisoners for 1 gold" (troops?) They go for 5 gold minimum, and eventually u can make 100k per offload. I have. Multiple times. But thats late late game
5- Lords. I tend to release ALL lords especially early on in game. But if u need cash.... even early game they go for 1500-3000 denars each. later they go for 8k to 20k. EACH. So thats some nice cash.
6- Selling all gear. ALL of it. Armor seems to be super prevalent (even trashy shirts) and you should be making thousands and thousands just selling those.

All of this stuff takes awhile to get up and running, but is possible. As a merc, Personally you got some choices. I tend to do no cavalry. I never chase looters.. pffft they are worthless. I will make archers and infantry and try to follow armies, or join armies.. and wait for fights. Then get my cash, my loot, my prisoners, my lords.. and sell it all. This gets u good money, AND didn't cost you cavalry to replace.

When I'm a vassal is when I really try to focus on money. and then u do the same stuff, but more. Smithing is a huge help. Sorry you think it is "cheese" or "not intended", or maybe even "the devs made a mistake for the last 20 months of game, even though they;ve tweaked it 20 times or more". That's cool. Don't use it.

many do.

I will try smithing if its fixed now! I just didnt want my campaign to turn into smithing simulator like it did a while ago :P. I actually really like it I just limited myself before because of... yaknow. Ill also go ahead and try workshops again aswell! Im just stuck in this little period before I can actually take on enemy armies and am too slow to catch looters so I just get stuck and run out of money. Gonna restart tho and try again.

Well it does get addicting. AT FIRST lol

Eventually though, the trouble of actually going to town, smelting trash, then making an item... (or 30) then running from town to town to sell them, seems more trouble than its worth. but it is a GREAT way to buy some 290k armors.."ahh I want a top tier helmet. better fire up the forge). Or buy some noble bows. (wait this stick bent in a crescent, with some string in it. costs 132k? This makes smithing seem UNDER priced lol)

But yeah, give it a shot. do it to cover any losses while u are up and running. I wouldnt restart TBH I'm sure your campaign is EASILY fixable. and maybe even more enjoyable, just dump high price troops. start your quest to smith, or get another workshop.. etc..

THEN start your global conquest. Might feel more rewarding, then starting fresh and doing "all the right things".

Good luck

[Kiloton]

There are mods that improve workshops, caravans, and post-battle loot to varying degrees. Don't expect a balanced economy from the developers. They padded the game with grinding in the hopes that you don't notice the lack of meaningful content.

[Grumpy Old Guy]

Generally speaking the workshops I've had the most luck with are wool producers in the extreme right side of the map, generally 250-400 per day per workshop.

I haven't tried caravans yet, but I was totally underwhelmed by the money from a castle. My first castle in my current run is only bringing in 750 total with all the villages attached and I'm spending 500 a day on the garrison. I only have like 60 men in that garrison but I haven't gotten a good feel for how big of a garrison I should keep yet.

Those of you who have tried caravans do they actually turn a profit? 15k for something that could just die seems a bit much and if its anything like workshops (which take forever to pay for themselves) I don't know if it's even worth it.

And yes smithing is incredibly cheesy at the moment. You can make 2k gold doing a mission, you can own 60k worth of workshops and maybe clear 2k a day. Or you could smith one two hander and sell it for 30k in ten seconds. The other items aren't as borked but 2 handed swords are outright bonkers expensive.

[Sentient_Toaster]

Smithing is still very good but it's no longer as bonkers as it used to be, as they lowered the prices of high-tier weapons and armor. Like, think my character was creating some 2HD swords that could go for 40K -- but they use a lot of fine steel for tier 4-5 parts, he's got smithing 250 with perks that improve swing damage, reduce trading penalty for crafted weapons; and also has trade somewhere >= 175. The days of easily creating 100K+ javelins from cheap components, are long over, AFAICT.

Caravan reliabilty will depend on your game. If your campaign has degenerated into something like "In the grim-dark past of Calradia, there is only war" and furthermore you're not using mods that result in patrols to help reduce banditry (e,g. if you use "Improved Garrisons", you can enable it for AI lords, too, e.g. have them spawn patrols) then their mean time between being wiped gets reduced a lot.

There are quests which can pay a fair bit and which don't necessarily need a lot of military power. e.g "Find the Spy" is a bit slow, because you have to run around town talking to people, but the only combat it requires is 1:1 at the end. It is *possible* to complete the "<x>'s revolt" quest without violence and those can pay several thousand+, but if you need to resort to violence... well, e.g. Vlandian version might throw 50+ noble-line cavalry at you, for instance, if you pushed the matter after failing the conversation rather than letting them go and failing the quest. Bandit hideouts limit you to ten, so it's more about quality than quantity (and having a decent bow helps a lot in these).

Tournaments only require personal combat skills, have no negative consequences win or lose, are doable very early on, and can offer loot that's either rare (tournament rewards can include the rare horse types like Asaligat and Destrier).


But war is the big thing in the long run. With 40 troops of modest quality, you obviously shouldn't be hurling yourself at serious enemy forces, but you might be able to follow a friendly army and join in if they fight somebody that's considerably weaker. If you're lucky, you might stumble upon a weakened looter stack or minor lord with mostly wounded troops and prisoners.

[RJboxer]

Originally posted by Grumpy Old Guy:

Generally speaking the workshops I've had the most luck with are wool producers in the extreme right side of the map, generally 250-400 per day per workshop.

I haven't tried caravans yet, but I was totally underwhelmed by the money from a castle. My first castle in my current run is only bringing in 750 total with all the villages attached and I'm spending 500 a day on the garrison. I only have like 60 men in that garrison but I haven't gotten a good feel for how big of a garrison I should keep yet.

Those of you who have tried caravans do they actually turn a profit? 15k for something that could just die seems a bit much and if its anything like workshops (which take forever to pay for themselves) I don't know if it's even worth it.

And yes smithing is incredibly cheesy at the moment. You can make 2k gold doing a mission, you can own 60k worth of workshops and maybe clear 2k a day. Or you could smith one two hander and sell it for 30k in ten seconds. The other items aren't as borked but 2 handed swords are outright bonkers expensive.

As to economy... Yeah its out of balance. and that is why Devs leave smithing as is. Highly nerfed compared to before (javlin for 1 iron, and 1 wood.. selling for <I wont say exact amount since I use it as a test for trolls> a LOT).

But now, to Unlock that 2 hander is hours of work, or just getting lucky. But most likely HOURS of work, and that's if u know what you're doing.

Is a 26k sword (far more common) OP, when you can Fight a battle.... Kill 200 dudes, Sell ALL their gear for 30k. Sell all the prisoners for 3k. Sell 4 lords for 16k. (total 49k). Yeah. Seems OP.

But how about when I want to buy a top tier helmet. For 290k? Or a suit of armor.. for 290k. And I got me, wife, bro, bros wife, sister, other bro, other bro wife, my 4(?) wanderer companions? And I wanna equip half of them? 290k helmets x 5 helmets is EXPENSIVE. Good luck doing that playing bingo in the tavern.

As to Workshops, if they make 275/day on average (not a bad estimate) and cost about 14k on average.. thats 50 days. a year in game is 84. So you are looking at about half a year. For one workshop to break even. you can own it FOREVER. Not a bad return.

Caravans, USED to die all the time, and rarely made 100/day so theyd last a month (if you were lucky) and youd maybe make 2k. but spend 22k (youd buy the upgraded one).

Now caravans seem 14-15k iirc. But last much longer, one I had lasted 4 years (yeah we were always in war), one lasted 2.5 years. Thats not as good as workshop return, but not bad. Oh and they made 50-300 per day (wide profit range.. because trade is so volatile).

So You can make 6 workshops, and after first 50 days. You are rolling in it. forever. Thats not a bad economy investment IMO.

[Lü Bu]

Seems like you did it backwards. Your supposed to invest the money into assets first then form a massive party after that.

After just starting a new game:
5 shops earning ~800-1k per day
4 Caravans earning ~0-800$ per day
starting to lose money once I was 120+ deep but thats reasonable since i only had a few workshops and caravans.

You may just be training all your troops up past T3 which turns them from a reasonable 4 denars per person into 8/12 denars per person which can really tank your income. Even 60 T4 units was enough to drop me into the negatives as workshops and carravans can only get you so far.

Besides if youre an unlanded independent noble - you really dont ever need a party bigger than 50. A massive party is really just a flex until you need to fight enemy armies. You dont need 200 men to beat a party of 12 looters but you can but its going to be unreasonably hard to maintain for no real gain.

[jasta85]

they key with caravans is to give them a leader with riding and scouting, trade skill is secondary. With high riding and scouting they'll be moving fast, which helps them both escape enemies as well as travel from town to town faster, therefore making more money.

[lar unuruur]

i start my campaigns by making charcoal and getting charcoal perk. in nearby villages charcoal sells exceptionally well. that gives me around 10k in less than week. then i hire some companions and recruits and start to advance and level stewardship with foods. i try avoid level troops to the top, for it can be costly beyond reason.
that is it! from now on i have around 50+ troops, depending of my roleplay and i am on the direct road to kingship or queenship. no cheesing, no smithing needed.

and buy horses for your troops. plus, battanian start gives best trait in game atm to me - forest movement penalty reducement.
i bath in money all through the game. no cheesing. do not forget good, old trading with horses/cows/mules etc.

ps. i do not think walking around with lots of looter prisoners is a good idea, they slow my band down too much and are not worth an effort i think. only drag them with me if have quest for labourers. my usual speed with footmen/archer.xbow group is around 5.5-6(single party).

[Arlie]

Caravans are a good investment. I would dump most of my initial income on caravans as early as possible, because bandit parties get bigger as time passes and, arguably more importantly, leading a caravan trains your companions. Get the expensive caravans early and they should last a while on average. As others have said, you want the companion to be good at scouting and riding so it survives longer.
This is best done before going mercenary, so your caravans only have to worry about bandits.

Workshops are more profitable than caravans. The issue is that you will lose them if you go to war with the settlement owner, so I would not invest early. It is generally understood that you should base your workshop type on village production. This is only partially correct. Not only the bound villages matter, what resources move to the town from other places is probably even more important. Caravans transport raw resources and manufactured goods, this influences both production cost and sell prices for your workshop. You have to observe the market in the town over a period of time or just try different workshops in a high prosperity town. Prosperity of the town and by extension how often it is under siege or changes owner dictates how much you could potentially make.
This is best done as a vassal when you intend to keep whatever fiefs you have forever.
Breweries are very reliable, because every town will have grain unless it is starving. There are better choices, but it will depend on how your game is going.

With all that said, late game the economy just kind of breaks, prices inflate and nothing you have learned earlier matters anymore. Passive income from the economy is nice, but battles are where you make the real money.

Mercenary work does not pay well, but the loot from it does. Being a vassal nets you more passive income due to fiefs, but you don't get to participate in as many wars as easily.

[Kimmaz]

Do you always loose a workshop if the town becomes hostile (if your faction goes to war) or only when the city is captured by a oppnent?
What about if you create your own kingdom, do you loose all your workshops then?

[Arlie]

Originally posted by Kimmaz:

Do you always loose a workshop if the town becomes hostile (if your faction goes to war) or only when the city is captured by a oppnent?
What about if you create your own kingdom, do you loose all your workshops then?

You should always lose the workshop. I think I have seen people claim they kept theirs, (in previous versions) but I don't think that is intended behavior.
If you create your own kingdom you should keep workshops that are not in hostile towns, so you should keep the ones in fiefs you take with you and those outside of the kingdom you defect from.

[Stray952]

Yeah with 40 guys you should be blazing around the map, get horses and a scout. As far as money - you get paid per engagement as a merc, just start wiping parties left and right, since it doesnt matter what size. Raid villages and rob caravans.

Being a privateer isn't supposed to fund your army, it is more like licensure to fight w/o being a bandit. The real prize is gear you might get/goods you might steal.

The workshops and caravans take a long time to turn a profit, but if they made them pay as much as fiefs, you'd never have a reason to engage in the rest of the game.