FIXED CAMERA OPTION: WHY/WHY NOT? constructive feedback ONLY please :)

[IIFriggII]

Please READ and UNDERSTAND before commenting :)

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FIXED CAMERA OPTION: WHY/WHY NOT?

SO::

I would love the option to have FIXED camera:
Meaning your character will ALWAYS be in the middle of the screen and move with you as you move.

Why?.

Very often it happens with a static camera that you will end up close to the sides/top/bottom and you can't see if/when enemies/attacks/etc comes from out of screen.
Some situations you will even have your character completely out of screen.

Another problem is when you get “get lost”, when you can't figure out where on the screen your character ended up or which of them are you.
This can be very annoying.

Another thing is that in the bigger rooms you get limited in your movement and end up being unable to move where you would “naturally” be able to move to avoid enemies.

All of these often end up hurting or frustrating you.

Which is why a fixed camera would be AWESOME.

The shared screen/static camera is very old school and was often just there because of the lack of technical abilities to do it differently.



Now what could be bad about this:

Arguments I have heard which people seem to be concerned about:
________


What if one char just runs off from the others and snatches or kills everything:
“well its a good concern, but not very valid:
The reason for this is that there is already event triggers which means that the rooms doesn't start up unless all players are in the room.”

What about area's where there isn't trigger events?.
“well obviously there would be a need to add more “trigger events”, meaning doors which doesn't open before all players are there.”

Wouldn’t this take a lot of time for them to add?.
“actually not: trigger events already exist, doors etc as well, so all it would take is editing the map, through the already existing map editor, it should be very simple”..

“so this means: players can't run way in front and since doors behind you stay closed they can't get lost running the wrong way and get way behind.
So any speed runner that rushes forward wouldn't be able to mass kill or steal everything before the rest have a chance.

Basic it will be the same as now, but without the annoying elements.”



It wouldn't be gauntlet anymore.

“first of. This is not the old gauntlet and have little to do with it, so we are already in that book.
Secondly: it would be an option so Any one which rather play with shared screen can do that.
So this wouldn't be an issue at all.
If you don't like the option don't turn it on and it would have no effect on you at all”



It would make the game too easy:

“if difficulty is made by unfair mechanics like getting hit out of screen,
or not being able to see where you are,
or not knowing which character is you at the current time etc.
Then something is seriously wrong in the design in the first place.
When that is said I don't think it will make it easier in the sense of the games actual difficulty, it will however make you feel that when you take dmg it's because YOU failed and not because of others or that the game is being unfair or had bad mechanics.
Which is always a positive feeling to give a player.”



What about multi player how would this work? Am I now forced to play in individual screens?

“no ofcause not.
The host would choose weather he wants individual screens or shared and when you search for a game you will do the same, and it will only put you in a game which matches you wish”.

But then it takes even longer for me to get an online game

“i think we can all agree the system as it is doesn't work for random joining right now. This is because you can't join a game in progress currently and most people doesn't wanna sit and wait forever for people to join.
There should of cause be the option when searching for a game to set it for both, so you just join the first type that comes up if it doesn't matter for you.
But since it matters for others they shouldn't be stuck with a worse camera for their likings because of you, and neither should you because of them.
You choose the one you like if it matters for you and you play with equal minded people, which always brings the best games”



Wouldn't it be A lot of time wasting from the devs to make?.

“well I can't say with garanteed how they programmed the game so I can't say 100% but considering making the camera center have the coordinates of the characters is ridicules easy and takes Much less skills to do then what they have now I would say it won't take much for them to add it.
Of cause every feature takes time to add, but for what features is this will be a very easy thing to implement and have very little possibility to bug out and therefore need little testing compared to other features/changes.
So this shouldn't be a concern”.



“these are the concerns which I have seen people bring up; and the once I can see people want to bring up.
If there is any others please add them and we will see if there is a solution” :)

PLEASE keep it WELL thought out and constructive.
none of that "because it won't work".
give exact explanation on why/what etc. that won't work with it,
and
why the option for it for people that want it shouldn't be allowed for those people.

Best regards me

My other feedback:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/258970/discussions/0/613937306690273100/

how is this acceptable camera control?
tell me again how am i suppose to know what is comming under me -.-
and this is in single player it gets exponentially worse in multiplayer -.-
http://s13.postimg.org/xo9rtwzlz/♥♥♥♥_camera.jpg
(btw 2 minutes before this screen i got instant killed by a head deamon in an exact same situation as this, it came from under the gui in the bottom and i didn't see it before it hit me, knocked me down, got hit by an explosion and 2 mobs and i was dead before i got the chance to even move again -.- "gj dev on such good camera design.. seriously idiotic")

____________________________________
extra stuff with some proof

let me break it down for you: bit less friendly :)

Gauntlet (1985 video game), by Atari Games: CONSOLE GAME. FIXED CAMERA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLnkCAFihqA
Gauntlet (NES video game), a 1987 game : CONSOLE GAME. (+arcade) FIXED CAMERA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGl2lWB7u1Y
Gauntlet: The Deeper Dungeons, : CONSOLE GAME. FIXED CAMERA!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPdxvnIVUvE
Gauntlet II, 1986 : CONSOLE GAME. (+arcade) FIXED CAMERA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7k6KAvxsPI
Gauntlet: The Third Encounter, 1990 : CONSOLE GAME (handhold) FIXED CAMERA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZhWUAsxkQs
Gauntlet III: The Final Quest, 1991 : PC game (first one) FIXED CAMERA!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF2ZRsUydjI
Gauntlet Legends, 1998 : CONSOLE GAME (also arcade) FIXED cam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa-dVIN87qs
Gauntlet Dark Legacy, 2000 : CONSOLE GAME (also arcade) semi fixed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lzu1CHab1b8
Gauntlet: Seven Sorrows, 2005 : CONSOLE GAME semi fixed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWHvYWYgkIY

Xbox live network on November 15, 2002 was the first reasonable online systems for consoles, before that you technically couldn't do it!

the ONLY game that could even have had split screen technically would have been Seven Sorrows; but since it got released with support for ps2, xbox and xbox live having split screen for online play wasn't even an option they could do (since ps2,xbox didnt have online play or multiple screen support for that matter)..

the only reason multiplayer doesn't have split screen and FIXED!!!! camera like they have in ALL the single players
(except 3 where its semi fixed in 2 and only in the new one is it not fixed at all,
which means the new camera isnt like ANY!! of the old guantlet games btw.)
is because as i stated MANY times now, it technically, system wise Wasnt Possible to do so at the time!!!!
the single player shows CLEARLY how they intended the games to feel playing on your own screen with your own Camera which was FIXED!! with you in center -.-

so you saying that it was a design choice and not a limitation of the times current hardware,technical abilities, etc. if STUPID AS HELL!!!!!!!!!!!


SO TO SUMMORIZE!!:

1: ALL old gauntlet games had topdown fixed camera except 2 which used semi fixed third person camera.
2: which means NONE! of them had the camera view of this new one which is using topdown dynamic NONE fixed camera view (in both single and multiplayer).
3: it wasn't technically possible for ANY!! of the old gauntlet games to be played on more then ONE! screen, meaning it wasn't a choice to do shared screen, it was the ONLY! possibility there was.
4: single player on ALL games CLEARLY shows that for a single person they are all (except this new one) designed to focus your char in the middle, and 7/9 of them are FIXED! topdown like we are Asking them to do here!!....

that sums it up...

[Donovan]

Originally posted by Tjaranis:

FIXED CAMERA OPTION: WHY/WHY NOT?

Here's your "why the camera is fixed" reasoning. (From the viewpoint of cameras being individual, anyways)

Four people are running around the same room, killing mobs, having a blast. Room is cleared, doors open. One player decides to run way the frick ahead of the rest of the group because they're greedy and want all the gold/food for themselves. They end up running into the next area, doors close and lock, enemies spawn.

Player is unable to clear the room, dies, respawns on the nearest teammate. Room remains locked, lobby is now borked, has to be remade and process begins from scratch.

All because the camera is no longer locked.

TL;DR: Because Gauntlet, 'nuff said.

[IIFriggII]

Originally posted by ƜΛƦmФƞƓΞƦ:

Originally posted by Tjaranis:

FIXED CAMERA OPTION: WHY/WHY NOT?

Here's your "why the camera is fixed" reasoning. (From the viewpoint of cameras being individual, anyways)

Four people are running around the same room, killing mobs, having a blast. Room is cleared, doors open. One player decides to run way the frick ahead of the rest of the group because they're greedy and want all the gold/food for themselves. They end up running into the next area, doors close and lock, enemies spawn.

Player is unable to clear the room, dies, respawns on the nearest teammate. Room remains locked, lobby is now borked, has to be remade and process begins from scratch.

All because the camera is no longer locked.

TL;DR: Because Gauntlet, 'nuff said.

well as I said:
There are event triggers.
Door doesn't close/open, mobs doesn't spawn etc. before every one is where the trigger dictate them to be (in this case, inside the room, as you also have now)
:)

so this can't happend unless it's a bug (which shouldn't happend and could happend now as well and would be fixed of cause)..

i also took this kinda thing into consideration in my op if you read it :)

[Donovan]

Actually, I've seen it happen where it'll literally pull my friend into the room if I try to go too far in, so it can still force it to happen.

[IIFriggII]

Originally posted by ƜΛƦmФƞƓΞƦ:

Actually, I've seen it happen where it'll literally pull my friend into the room if I try to go too far in, so it can still force it to happen.

well i have had my wiz teleport through a wall/over (had to restart ) in group.
fall down into lava (had to restart)
get stuck in wall (had to restart).

it's called a bug and it happens :)
and of cause those bugs will get fixed and shouldn't happend..

[Donovan]

I don't think the pulling into the next instanced area is a bug on the game's part. I believe it's actually supposed to happen to some extent or another. As for the rest, those would be labelled as bugs in the traditional sense.

[IIFriggII]

Originally posted by ƜΛƦmФƞƓΞƦ:

I don't think the pulling into the next instanced area is a bug on the game's part. I believe it's actually supposed to happen to some extent or another. As for the rest, those would be labelled as bugs in the traditional sense.

i haven't seen the pulling in thing, but i am pretty sure its a bug.
even if it isn't they still got event triggers to do this which means the whole argument in the OP is the same and as valid :)

so still your scenario wouldn't be possible with the individual camera suggestion i put up :)

[KilledKillaB]

What you are saying CAN be done, yes though I rather it never happen for this particular game series myself, rather see the game retired. Anyways, the additions and changes required would cost some money to do, and could render the games performance some. But yes, it is all do-able. Pretty sure there are already games like what you are asking for just for the record. For myself, between the way your asking for vs the shared screen....I would prefer the shared screen, it has its frustrations but when you play it with 3 friends competitively it is a better way to go, far more fun in my opinion. But I also realize everyone has different taste or hasn't had the pleasure of beating any of the games with 3 friends. If the shared screen isn't for you then it's all good, not your game. But I wouldn't expect fixed camer to come as an option, game is already made and would probably seem like a money loss to them.

[IIFriggII]

Originally posted by KilledKillaB:

What you are saying CAN be done, yes though I rather it never happen for this particular game series myself, rather see the game retired. Anyways, the additions and changes required would cost some money to do, and could render the games performance some. But yes, it is all do-able. Pretty sure there are already games like what you are asking for just for the record. For myself, between the way your asking for vs the shared screen....I would prefer the shared screen, it has its frustrations but when you play it with 3 friends competitively it is a better way to go, far more fun in my opinion. But I also realize everyone has different taste or hasn't had the pleasure of beating any of the games with 3 friends. If the shared screen isn't for you then it's all good, not your game. But I wouldn't expect fixed camer to come as an option, game is already made and would probably seem like a money loss to them.

:)
ty for your oppiniom.

could you explain in details why you think shared screen add for a better gameplay which wouldn't be possible to have with individual screens?
as much as you can explain it would give a better idea of why and maybe an understanding, since at this point i can't see how it would retract anything positive to have it individual for this purpose ^^

[KilledKillaB]

Hard to explain really, especially hard to understand if you have not experienced it. The shared screen makes for it's own interesting co-op challenge and "feel" to the game. Everyone locked on one screen in a game where tons of minions are coming at you has it's own co-op style in that the group REALLY has to stay together to survive and progress, it's kinda forced by the shared screen really. The frustrations of it (people wandering off or stalling) are there, which is why players typically keep together and it keeps the pace going very fast. Plus there is the bonus of competitveness, getting the loot first, killing/eating food and watching a player die...for the many who enjoy it :) Yes that is still possible in a fixed camera mode like you would prefer, but wouldn't quite be the same since everyone would have their own screen and be able to see the loot before someone else can - even in same room if it is big enough (yes I know you said players would still be together in a fixed mode). Would be a slightly different looting mechanic going on there.

From what you are saying, players will still be in the same area together throughout the game (room by room within a dungeon), only with fixed individual cameras. That way, the game progresses the same - as a team. I get that, sounds nice even, I would try it. But not on Gauntlet, keep it real :)

Sorry if I cannot explain it enough, it's late and I am tired. From the sound of things you have not had the experience of sitting on the couch playing one of these games with your buddies for hours. Just guessing here.

[Colen Bardbarian]

It's not going to happen. END OF

[IIFriggII]

Originally posted by KilledKillaB:

Hard to explain really, especially hard to understand if you have not experienced it. The shared screen makes for it's own interesting co-op challenge and "feel" to the game. Everyone locked on one screen in a game where tons of minions are coming at you has it's own co-op style in that the group REALLY has to stay together to survive and progress, it's kinda forced by the shared screen really. The frustrations of it (people wandering off or stalling) are there, which is why players typically keep together and it keeps the pace going very fast. Plus there is the bonus of competitveness, getting the loot first, killing/eating food and watching a player die...for the many who enjoy it :) Yes that is still possible in a fixed camera mode like you would prefer, but wouldn't quite be the same since everyone would have their own screen and be able to see the loot before someone else can - even in same room if it is big enough (yes I know you said players would still be together in a fixed mode). Would be a slightly different looting mechanic going on there.

From what you are saying, players will still be in the same area together throughout the game (room by room within a dungeon), only with fixed individual cameras. That way, the game progresses the same - as a team. I get that, sounds nice even, I would try it. But not on Gauntlet, keep it real :)

Sorry if I cannot explain it enough, it's late and I am tired. From the sound of things you have not had the experience of sitting on the couch playing one of these games with your buddies for hours. Just guessing here.

Well the survival part isn't really forced by the screen as much as it is by the difficulty and enemy spawning :)
The screen is just an extra layer which doesn't promote the teamplay and communication but sets up a hard limit to where you can move and what you can see duo to it.
The ability to control the camera isn't really there, even if the players want to move the camera for you, it's not really their choice and it forces them to do bad things just for the sake of the camera view.

I can understand the argument with it forcing another play style that is true.
But is this a positive thing?
Having to take bad decisions to be able to see what is around you duo to camera view, is that really good?

Isn't it leaning up against removing the hp bar(or other egual info mechanics) and the only way to see how much hp some one got is to let them get hit so it shows for 1 second?.
Which would add another aspect of “difficulty” but in a special way which I personally think isn't a good way...

Shouldn't difficulty come from what you are facing instead of limitation of information duo to “bad mechanics” which only serves to hide the info for no other reason then you lacking the info making it impossible for you to take a quelified decision?..

In short:
Isn't a good challanging gameplay created by giving the player as much information as possible and then let the player figure out what is the best course of action to take based on the information they have, and rewarding them for good decision making and making sure to not punishing them for a good decision made based on the info?
(since if they take a good decision on the info they got, but it turns out to punish them because the info they lacked would have told them it was a really bad decision to take)

Doesn't that give the player the best feeling of them being directly and the most responsible for their success or failure?


The competition, and team work is easy acquired also with an individual screen so that doesn't make a difference camera view wise :)


But shouldn't we try to find the most pleasant, fun and rewarding experience for the gamer when looking at the game design?
Or we should of cause.
But do you belief that the shared screen and lack of option to have an individual screen creates the best possible experience for the players?
That it gives the players the feeling of a fair, rewarding, fun and challenging experience which couldn't be archived or improved by another camera view?
And which would be decreased by the Option which would allow people to choose themselves?


sorry for the late answer i have been pondering a lot over all the info i have gathered over the last couple of days.
i also made a new feedback thread with my new views which have changed a ton based om all that info and feedback others have given.
it's in the bottom of my op here, please check it out if you got the time, no rush, better to think twice and get a better feedback ready then answering fast :)

best regards
me

[Shamanalah]

If you want a game without fixed camera then don't play Gauntlet. Otherwise it isn't Gauntlet at all....

Geezus christ, I know it's hard to understand that this game is like that, but it is.

[IIFriggII]

friendly bump for constructive feedback only :)

[Shamanalah]

Originally posted by Tjaranis:

friendly bump for constructive feedback only :)

Asking for a fixed camera in Gauntlet is like asking a TPS view on CoD, it'll never happen cause the source of the game is the vision of the field. (or lack of it)

Gauntlet with fixed camera is NOT Gauntlet.

[Alcovitch]

Originally posted by Shamanalah:

Originally posted by Tjaranis:

friendly bump for constructive feedback only :)

Asking for a fixed camera in Gauntlet is like asking a TPS view on CoD, it'll never happen cause the source of the game is the vision of the field. (or lack of it)

Gauntlet with fixed camera is NOT Gauntlet.

Do you just copy paste this reply in all threads about this issue.

Look people. Tech changes, it evolves, games change, and evolve. This isn't 1985 anymore.

Saying shared camera has to stay because it was that way in 1985 is like saying we shouldn't have cars because we had horse and buggy in 1885. Times change dudes.

Saying it's not a Gauntlet game if the camera were not shared is pretty ridiculous. So, Gauntlet isn't the 4 heroes, the monster generators, the keys, the food (and shooting said food) the potions? NOPE, it's the camera folks!

Lets not get into the discussion that none of the heroes play like they did in 1985 (which where just diff sprites) so I guess it's not Gauntlet!!!

Fixed camera was only because 4 players were sharing 1 arcade cabinet at the time.

Please come up with a better excuse then "it's not Gauntlet!!!"