LILITH The NECROMANCER...

[FU]

I'm trying to enjoy running the GAUNTLET with her, she has a lot of unique and very cool attack mechanics, but something keeps getting in the way, and I just can't continue anymore with her.

So, this is just constructive criticism and a humble request. :)

Her Skeleton Swipe Attack. It just is not looking, sounding or feeling very good to play that Attack as LILITH.
It's one skeleton too many for her attacks, the sound effect and everything about it is clunky.
It just feels and sounds so unintuitive, heavy, and clunky when you make that attack and being her Lite Attack, it just seems it should be "lighter".

Suggestion:

Let her have some sort of spell effect attack instead.
Basically remove the skeleton animation and replace it with some sort of spell blast effect with a smooth cool sounding effect.

You could re-purpose the Skeleton Swipe Attack for something else in the game...maybe some enemy attack, or it pops out from a coffin if you get too close, like a trap or something.

A big Sythe/Reaper would really suit her with this attack.

Also, let this attack have more of an area of effect between her and the outer edge of it's damage radius. As it is, stuff close to her is uneffected by damage.
This gets really noticable and annoying in a bad way when trying to smash barrels to get Gold.

UPDATE: Actually, her Skeleton Swipe Attack does damage p close, but only if it's within the curve of the swing.

Call this new spell SOUL SYTHE or something...which is what happens when she attacks anyways, she actually is reaping the power of the dead.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/128248274@N05/16584752137/in/album-72157649345997484/

[Xeth Nyrrow]

That would be a great change and I think most people agreed when she came out it was one skeleton too many. It's not much of an issue because just about any Necro player worth their salt hardly ever uses the attack. If they removed the minimum range that might make it be used more.

The big hammer attack is also a bit out of place but I've gotten used to it by now. If it was a giant bone smash or a zombie/mummy fist (think first boss' hand) that would be better and one less character sized distraction on screen.

[Tr3VR]

I hope they add more characters as well
As well as reworking the Necro
Since they are reworking everthing else

[FU]

Originally posted by Xeth Nyrrow:

The big hammer attack is also a bit out of place but I've gotten used to it by now.

I agree...she just seems like she should have more spell-like attacks with spell-like animations.
The Skeleton Smash Attack always makes me think THOR! everytime I use it. I think it even does more damage than anything THOR has...she can smash a Spawner in three smashes for example.
Maybe they could repurpose the Skeleton Smash animation after tweeking it to look like THOR and give it to him for when he does a Charge/Leap Attack. Like he would morph into the larger animation...haha...I think that would look awesome and really give that attack more THOR style!

Originally posted by Tenth Doctor:

I appretiate the animation and modeling they put into attack but I cannot disagree that it's very out of place.

For sure it's appreciated and looks good, I agree, it just doesn't really suit her well at all.

Originally posted by Tenth Doctor:

Also dissopointed that she don't have control over her skeletons. And why skeletons are always the same? I get the Sun King's crypt, but I kind of hoped to see like, ork and demon skeletons as well. To match the difficulty.

I mean, her skeletons, even fully charged, get rekt by even regular skeletons on normal difficulty. That the f!@#$%^ is that? I cannot picture her special ability be of any use on Hard or Unfair, unless you spam it to create them in quantity but not the quality.

I really like what they did with her summoned skeletons, but yea, it would be really cool if they were level appropriate skeletons. It may be they will add these at some point.

Originally posted by Tenth Doctor:

It would better if they just formed like a guard wall in front of her and everything that comes close - get hit. + it would of protect her better. With this health and without long range attack you get toasted before you know it.

I think they made it like that to encourage you to move around and spirit walk through enemies to gain your energy to power up her Skeleton Summoning ability. You do damage also when spirit walking through enemies, so that's like a light attack on it's own.
Also, even if her summoned skellies are weak and quickl destroyed, they cause enemies to attack them, which ties those enemies up for awhile, taking some heat off of LILITH and any other heroes she is running the GAUNTLET with.
I really like how they have it though.

Originally posted by Tenth Doctor:

To be completely honest if I were them I would of just wiped those two attacks and gave her a cast table like on Wizard, but with alternate spells to match the dark magic and summoning theme.

How about getting rid of the Skeleton Slam Attack and replace it with a sort of Black Hole Of Death that swirls around and sucks enemies into it?
This could be stationary, or better yet, have it move around randomly like the Tornado Relic!


LILITH's HOWLING DEATH VORTEX Attack:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/128248274@N05/19565607310/in/dateposted-public/
(The color is a bit over-saturated, but you get the idea).

They could use the DEATH animation and the NECROMANCER/LICH animation for this and just amp it up with LILITH's Theme Color of Purple and Black with some nasty howling/screaming sound effects.

As a side note...I think LILITH would benefit from her character Color Theme being amped up a bit to a more saturated Deep Purple. (I did this in the linked image I made for her HOWLING DEATH VORTEX Attack so we could have a look see example).
Using the already existing DEATH and LICH animations but tweeking them for the HOWLING DEATH VORTEX would really allow a nice continuity/similarity between all these Attacks.

Originally posted by Tenth Doctor:

Edit: as extra - disbale cooldown on them. Make it that she can spam spells as long as she ready to sacrifice her health for it. Don't wanna wait for cooldown - pay with HP. Sounds good to me.

THIS is a super cool idea! That really suits her Necromancer style...NICE. :)
It would really add to her flexibility fighting in the deadly GAUNTLET.

[FU]

...and speaking of repurposing the Skeleton Slam Attack and Skeleton Swipe Attack as DEATH TRAPS in the deadly GAUNTLET:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/128248274@N05/19756367122/in/dateposted-public/

...and how about if you smash open a urn, sometimes a random GHOST pops out and flies around trying to attack you! :)

[Mr Breeze]

If your skeletons are getting wrecked by normal enemies, your Necromancer probably isn't powerful enough yet. Full power skeletons do a lot of damage and take a lot since they are armored. One wave of fully charged skeletons can take a spawner down like nothing in just a few seconds. She is the only character that can solo the game pretty much with ease.

I would like to see the minimum attack also have no min range so you can swipe anything in front of you. I only use it to knock them back into hammering distance and rely almost exclusively on the heavy attack and skeletons. Use the hammer to protect the skeletons instead of using it on the tower. And use it to generate more power to summon more minions. She's at her best when it's chaotic (3 or 4 towers on unfair).

Would like to see different minions depending on the level as others suggested and to balancer her out either weaken her or limit the amount of skeletons that can spawn. That said I enjoy playing her OP or not, but in groups tend to not use her because people have this thing about her and thyra for some reason.

[Solinarius☕]

Originally posted by Tenth Doctor:

To be completely honest if I were them I would of just wiped those two attacks and gave her a cast table like on Wizard, but with alternate spells to match the dark magic and summoning theme.

That is exactly how I've felt! A new class should have been an exciting addition. Especially in a game like this where additions like that are rare. Hopefully Slayer Edition allows us to change Lillith to something more exciting.

Also, Lillith doesn't hold up to Arrowhead's main principle:

"Arrowhead is a studio founded by two passionate individuals that had a simple idea; Games should challenge the creativity of the individuals that play them."

I feel that axiom in all the other classes, while it's entirely absent in Lillith.

Originally posted by Tenth Doctor:

Edit: as extra - disbale cooldown on them. Make it that she can spam spells as long as she ready to sacrifice her health for it. Don't wanna wait for cooldown - pay with HP. Sounds good to me.

Very nice!

[Kaiosama TLJ]

Even though I'm enjoying playing as her I will admit that she's a bit clunky when attacking. I know that her attacks shouldn't be that great because being a "walking summoning stone" is a Necromancer style, but her light attack as a huge gap that can likely miss enemies when attacking too close.

I think her lite skeleton swipe could be replaced by an offensive spell similar to the chain lightning spell from Merlin (a black lightning spell if you prefer), except it would not chain on enemies and would hit only one target.

The big skeleton from her heavy attack I have nothing against. It's powerful enough to justify it's area of effect and the fact you need a good position to use it effectively.

EDIT: Ah yes, I've remembered of another little issue that I have with her. One thing that annoys me about her skeletons is that they will rush and try to attack invicible enemies like the Sun King or even Morak when their weak spots are not exposed.

[Xeth Nyrrow]

Well we should be seeing some changes based off the latest info:
Designing GAUNTLET: Slayer Edition [arrowheadgamestudios.com]

Problem is she's still OP. I expect her to be able to get top score in the endless dungeons too.

[Solinarius☕]

Originally posted by Xeth Nyrrow:

Well we should be seeing some changes based off the latest info:
Designing GAUNTLET: Slayer Edition [arrowheadgamestudios.com]

Problem is she's still OP. I expect her to be able to get top score in the endless dungeons too.

Yeah, that's kind of a big deal. Merlin is OK because you only get what you give, with him. Lillith's minions really need to be tougher and craftier, like the skeleton captains, and with a reasonable summoning softcap (so that the "slayers" can't hide behind a wall of minions). Lillith's minions should merely be a large supplement, just like the Weapon Abilities of the other characters are.

[Xeth Nyrrow]

Originally posted by Solinarius:

Originally posted by Xeth Nyrrow:

Well we should be seeing some changes based off the latest info:
Designing GAUNTLET: Slayer Edition [arrowheadgamestudios.com]

Problem is she's still OP. I expect her to be able to get top score in the endless dungeons too.

Yeah, that's kind of a big deal. Merlin is OK because you only get what you give, with him. Lillith's minions really need to be tougher and craftier, like the skeleton captains, and with a reasonable summoning softcap (so that the "slayers" can't hide behind a wall of minions). Lillith's minions should merely be a large supplement, just like the Weapon Abilities of the other characters are.

Lilith is currently the best tank in the game, hands down. She should have less skeletons so that they don't become this nigh invincible meat (bone?) shield for the whole team.

[FU]

Originally posted by SOH Kaiosama TLJ:

I think her lite skeleton swipe could be replaced by an offensive spell similar to the chain lightning spell from Merlin (a black lightning spell if you prefer), except it would not chain on enemies and would hit only one target.

Nice! Maybe have it be like the WIZARDS Lightning Bolt with reduced range and more of a fan shaped blast. Like multiple short range Lightning Bolts flying from her fingertips in a fanshape attack area. That would really look cool too and blasting breakable barrels and other objects would be a lot of fun.

[Meistermime]

I actually don't like the Necromancer. Bevor she was fine to play but now?

- Nearly no charches when a minion kills sth.
- Clunky combat abilities
- Escaping is nearly impossible if you have a huge crowd in front of you
- Way to weak armor for the reason that youre forced to go every single time in close combat to leak soul energy.

Your forced to run arround like a rabbit searching for a place to steal some soul energy. After that your finaly able to summon sth. and it will die withing 5 seconds becaus your minions wait 1 - 2 seconds bevore they attack.

I ask my self what Lilith should supposed to be? She isn't really a good summoner any more and for close combat your way better with the valkyrie or with the warrior (how obvious). Ranged attack are also for one staff, if you chosse to play with the gohst.

My opinion is, that she is sluggish and not worth to spend money.

[Solinarius☕]

Necromancer is still as viable as any other class and is less annoying, now. Honestly, Lillith is still in a world of her own with the hammer attack. It's like Merlin's fireball, except three times faster. Also, Ghost Walk allows you to cancel out of attacking and summoning. This is one of the most important techniques when on the offensive.

Boots of Ranadam and the Freeze Ring are excellent complements to Ghost Walk.

[White Wolf]

Her 'autoattack' absolutely leaves much to be desired, it's very disappointing. As mentioned earlier in the thread, any necro worth their salt rarely if ever uses the attack, and this is a sure-sign of a game design flaw! (Detail and suggestions to follow)

While conceptually kind of neat and the push landing enemies into perfect smashing position, the ability just feels too slow and clunky to use. Partly from design and largely from programming. Using an arc swing instead of a cone swing is an interesting thought, which increases the skill required for use. There are two problems however that pair with this choice that make it unusable: The attack delay, and the attack accuracy. In my experience, my first basic attack usually follows my character position instead of my mouse position, causing a swing in the opposite direction. I don't have time for a second swing before whatever is trying to kill me is within the deadzone of my attack.

Perhaps the -easiest- fix would be to use a cone instead of an arc, but I think by making the attack accurate and removing the clunkiness would really help make it function better overall.

[Raden]

Your problem is using a mouse. Got to be honest, this game is much better played with an X360 game pad. You can ghostwalk with the right stick in any direction immediately and easily get into position for a hammer smash. If you have a wired X360 game pad or can get one cheap, I would absolutely recommend it.