Its just Portal in an other environment ?

[Machin Shin]

or not ? I did the Demo to the end and it was fun but just Portal.(gameplay wise)

for a Portal game € 40 would be to much for me.
Is it way longer ?

[Solais]

Okay.

[MPO]

It's way longer. Just buy it, trust me.

[Fearless Airlines]

Worth every penny.

[Wicked Witch]

way longer and much more complicated in terms of the world, the story, and what 'lies behind' the game.

Fearbleed: yup, worth every penny.

[Grottowalker]

if puzzle is one of your fave generes it is a must buy, if you enjoy puzzle games it is deffently worth it.
portal has decent puzzles
but talos has decent to strong puzzles and has way better atmosphere. when you take in your souroundings and use the computer terminal in game you are really given strong themes to think about while you are solving puzzles.

[Artillery Horse]

If it is working correctly for you and you like puzzle games, it is the most polished game on Steam. The options are amazing, on my 4k monitor 3840x2160 it is flawless. No scams, no piggish money grab, just pure intelligent fun!

[checkers_of_shalmone]

Eh, I couldn't ever call the puzzle design "strong". No way.

[Solais]

I would. It's just the right difficulty for me.

[checkers_of_shalmone]

It only occasionally used the mechanics consistently. I don't even mean that in a "bad difficulty curve" way, I literally mean in design. It's enough to be frustrating, at least, but at the end there are more positive things to say than negative.

So many of the star puzzles are hidden object games or something that came out of nowhere. Oh, look, a connector in a tree! With that, I would wonder, what's next? A jammer on the sun? Maybe if I pull a hexahedron out my behind I'll find Hub World D. Or maybe I'll be able to jam a fan even though I haven't been able to jam a jammer, connector, or hexahedron, or unlock an iPad on rollerskates that I can carry over my head. Oh, wait...

In World A1 and A2, it's consistent. Key. Switch. Jammer, yeah, OK.

The first problem is in A3, An Escalating Problem, which is literally only the first bump in the slope where it breaks its own rules, and this is especially terrible in the first red puzzle. Which could have easily been fixed by #1. putting an antepiece there in Peephole or/and #2. not making the height difference 3 feet. Or you have people wasting hints on a puzzle due to bad wording.

A4, A5, A6 and A7 are very fine. And if you rightly gave up on A3 you will probably give up on the red puzzle as well. It's not uncommon to see people who play this game and then just gave up on the reds thinking they were impossible. All because of a bad beginning and an ambiguous unlock system.

A8 has the inclusion of a puzzle that is actually impossible (getting 10 stars before going to B) and it's the time where the player is introduced to the artificial difficulty of death.

B1 just pushes the selection and buzzers a step further, besides Road Of Death (why couldn't that mine be a shocker? this is an introduction piece, so it should be stripped to its core)

B2 is fine. B3-sunshot's hidden ladder is irritating but not frustrating because it isn't a mine puzzle.

B4's level design as a whole is strange:
"Wrap Around The Corner" is so easy for a red puzzle, that it could be placed as the first puzzle of the game and everyone could still solve it easily. It's even so close to the spawn.

The recorder is just bad design at work. One of the game's selling points for me is the whole "puzzle is done inside your head, not within the game". Then this recording thing comes out and it's painful. Stripping it away shows it's a duplicator just taking advantage of the complexity of player vs. options too. To the defenders: what if I made a Re-Recorder? You record, but instead of stopping you play Recording #2. Now you've TRIPLED it and it's only going to get worse because the puzzle's "core" is not even being applied, it's the complexity, or burden of the player, which doesn't translate to depth. If you think you can handle three, great! Now I'll just make a Re-Re-Recorder. Note that even if you could handle any amount, the time you waste gets higher and higher every time I add a new layer of complexity. I mean, the Recorder is so redundant in most of the puzzles, that I could just rip off the recorder and just use it as a Jammer+Connector+Hexahedron+Fan duplicate. Just one. That could solve a lot of puzzles just by itself.

Then there's two reds that don't even require a Recorder in there, which makes you wonder why these are so far away since you've just been "eased" into a recorder.

B5 is pretty fair, besides a difficulty spike. That's because the Alley puzzle doesn't conform to the whole recorder-as-one-object thing. B6 is again another example of <s>great</s> death mechanics at work, but otherwise two harmless puzzles. B7 again follows with awesome death and cut mechanics. Meanwhile, probably 65% of players sighed when they got killed during one of them and had to do it all over again.

B8 is not part of a meme, but besides not conditioning the OR gate properly (not EVERYONE went to Tower Floor 1, besides your <s>awesome</s> achievement design)

C1 also has a mix of non-self consistent difficulty red puzzles. The Conservatory takes very good advantage of the Player-Ability distinction, Blowback actually dares pull the "jam a fan" card, and the other two stay with the linear puzzle format of collecting more resources.

C2 pulls the iPad on rollerskates you can carry to the next (il)logical level. I know it took me quite some time to know what it did. Cemetery is so well designed that everybody remembered the second box *cough* *HACK* *nope*, and A Ditch and a Fence pulls depth out too early (max height) all because Rapunzel didn't actually need anyone to be on a box.

C3 and C4 is another bit of the same linear progression of being a hoarder, which is kept fresh through subversion. Though me personally, I just put the connector on top of a wall in Throne Room.

If it weren't so linear, "Up Close And Jammed" pt1 would be something I'd be complaining about. Part 2 deals with moving things, which is again not conditioned because ever since, only two puzzles cared about boxes on top of mines.

C6 is pretty simple, along with the second easiest red recorder puzzle after Wrap Around The Corner.

C7... well, I had no problem with Prison Break. Besides having like 5 connectors (that aren't even used much in backtracking purposes) the resources are clear and minimal. The rest of C7 is simple, and then you finally get the first and ONLY recorder puzzle that gives a damn about where the recorder actually is physically located.

C8? NO COMMENT.

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, I probably wrote the script for some guy's YouTube video. And if I do get anything it would probably be misattributed "you hate The Talos Principle?!!!?" and I would say, "no".

[Solais]

I think the problem is that you do the puzzles in order, which is completely okay, but mostly, the game was mostly designed that you do the puzzles in the "color" order, as in, doing the green and yellow sigils first, and then doing the reds. After this, doing the stars and silver ones. (And the idea of stars were always about "thinking outside the box".)

From what I see from your complaints, it seems that your problems is that the game's design and difficulty doesn't make sense if played in a linear order... which is true, because it was never designed linearly.

The positions of the puzzles and all that, it actually changed a lot during development, Croteam can just go a switch two puzzles, and there would be no problems, because there's little linear design, only when it comes to the mechanic unlocking and the Tower.

Originally, I complained about the new Escalating Problem too (for me, the version in the Lost Level is the original one), because it is situated before the "tutorial puzzle" of getting items from a higher plane, but if you go to the color-order, it is a puzzle way after that tutorial.

The only problem I see is the problem about mines carrying hexahedrons. That was never explained and it really should have had a tutorial puzzle.

As for Jamming the fans: I dunno, it always made sense that you can jam them, because they are items connected to an electric device. You jam the device, not the fan itself.

I have no comment on the recorder, because I think it's a good mechanic, even if a little annoying. I especially love it when used with the platform.

And I don't know what do you mean by "not using the mechanics consistently". Jammers jam devices, connectors connect lasers, hexahedrons are weights and platforms, fans blow stuff, recorder clones the player and the items, and the shield is used with that as a platform. This is what the mechanics do and they do that consistently.

[checkers_of_shalmone]

Originally posted by Solais:

I think the problem is that you do the puzzles in order, which is completely okay, but mostly, the game was mostly designed that you do the puzzles in the "color" order, as in, doing the green and yellow sigils first, and then doing the reds. After this, doing the stars and silver ones. (And the idea of stars were always about "thinking outside the box".)

From what I see from your complaints, it seems that your problems is that the game's design and difficulty doesn't make sense if played in a linear order... which is true, because it was never designed linearly.

The positions of the puzzles and all that, it actually changed a lot during development, Croteam can just go a switch two puzzles, and there would be no problems, because there's little linear design, only when it comes to the mechanic unlocking and the Tower.

Originally, I complained about the new Escalating Problem too (for me, the version in the Lost Level is the original one), because it is situated before the "tutorial puzzle" of getting items from a higher plane, but if you go to the color-order, it is a puzzle way after that tutorial.

The only problem I see is the problem about mines carrying hexahedrons. That was never explained and it really should have had a tutorial puzzle.

As for Jamming the fans: I dunno, it always made sense that you can jam them, because they are items connected to an electric device. You jam the device, not the fan itself.

I have no comment on the recorder, because I think it's a good mechanic, even if a little annoying. I especially love it when used with the platform.

And I don't know what do you mean by "not using the mechanics consistently". Jammers jam devices, connectors connect lasers, hexahedrons are weights and platforms, fans blow stuff, recorder clones the player and the items, and the shield is used with that as a platform. This is what the mechanics do and they do that consistently.

Not designing the puzzles linearly makes for a lot of backtracking. If I had to do all the greens, then yellows, then reds, not only does this imply a lesser puzzle solving skill, but also makes you stand in an elevator for way longer. If I didn't intervene and tell people the reds WERE possible, this doesn't conform to a specific style of play, it conforms because the game itself wasn't well designed for it.

All that argument means is that a special kind of person will be able to play the game in a way that is fair to them, and that's nothing special. And even then the game mechanics are mangled, because this leads to another question. Why is the jammer limited to electrical devices? Why can't it jam the Recorder, for example? Or yet, the whole thing's a simulation, so it can jam that! Maybe I can jam the elevators! Why can't I jam a "laser source"? And again, the Jammer and Connector are legitimate "electrical devices" that, if they were jammable, would also produce a potential for more unique puzzles! Maybe they aren't connected to anything, but I mean, you can jam fans that are off, so why can't you jam a jammer that isn't jamming anything?

That being said, WHAT puzzle exactly teaches you that it's possible to pick an object up from a height like that? Clearly the cliffhang in Escalating Problem is about the size of 2 hexahedrons stacked, and when you stand on 2 hexahedrons you can't pick anything up from ground level. No green puzzle does. No yellow puzzle does. Even Behind The Iron Curtain wraps up your core message "You can pick up things from this specially designated higher ground" and puts it in even more complexity by stacking it.

Contrary to you, I actually don't agree with the "outside the box thinking". When you first think about "outside the box thinking" you probably think of the Four Straight Lines puzzle, where you have to draw four straight lines in a 3x3 board. The "solution" is to break the boundaries of the grid and draw using a 4x4 tactic. However, there are an infinite amount of solutions to this that fit just by "trolling the rules". Maybe I fold the paper! Maybe one of my lines isn't a 90 or 45 degree angle! Maybe I redefine what a "straight line is"! Maybe I get a really really big marker and draw a straight line with that! Maybe I puke all over the paper and eat it, then I draw over my fecal matter. The point is, how am I supposed to predict what "outside the box" solution will the developer want? I don't think that's good design either.

You can tell jamming the fan is such a least-used mechanic because only Blowback and the top of the tower use this. Also, mines can carry on top of it 1 fan (that special mechanic was never used). This is what I mean by "inconsistent" mechanics. The mechanics may be consistent NOW, but as a new player I'm just getting introduced, and it would be illogical to assume anything about them and thus I will just make a finite list. Instead of "Jammers jam electric things" I say "Jammers jam barriers, turrets, and bombs", and increase that list as time goes on, like "shockers". I also develop a subconcious list of what it cannot do. It cannot jam jammers, connectors, or hexahedrons, so what should I say when it turns out "It can jam a fan"? There is no green or yellow puzzle to show this to you.

As I said, if you like the Recorder, fine. There is nothing I can really do to change that. But that also means you are going to let the Re-recorder, Re-re-recorder, and anything else because it ... adds more complexity...? And hey, the Re-recorder can actually have great consequences if you add the jammable recorder onto it. Think about it! You record with the re-recorder and play your first guy. Then you click again and you're playing as 2nd guy, which uses a jammer to temporarily jam the re-recorder so the 1st guy can't stop recording until 2nd guy unjams it. Imagine the AWSUM complexity (*not depth) that can offer! And all the time you'll waste! I mean, complexity is okay as long as it gives depth, but the special case with the recorder is it also is a huge time sink.

If you think the Higher Power Recorder chain is absurd (and, with my personality, passive-aggressive), I have to say it's exactly what I think with just one recorder.

[Solais]

Actually one of the first things I wanted to do in the editor was a re-recorder, but it doesn't work, sadly. :V

Not designing the puzzles linearly makes for a lot of backtracking. If I had to do all the greens, then yellows, then reds, not only does this imply a lesser puzzle solving skill, but also makes you stand in an elevator for way longer. If I didn't intervene and tell people the reds WERE possible, this doesn't conform to a specific style of play, it conforms because the game itself wasn't well designed for it.

There are QR codes and even Elohim talking about how you should leave harder puzzles and do them later. I agree that it should have been more communicated to the player, but that would be a lot more "hand holding", and from many reviews and tests, it was concluded that people like the lack of hand-holding in the game, that you need to discover things, not getting told what everything does.

All that argument means is that a special kind of person will be able to play the game in a way that is fair to them, and that's nothing special. And even then the game mechanics are mangled, because this leads to another question. Why is the jammer limited to electrical devices? Why can't it jam the Recorder, for example? Or yet, the whole thing's a simulation, so it can jam that! Maybe I can jam the elevators! Why can't I jam a "laser source"? And again, the Jammer and Connector are legitimate "electrical devices" that, if they were jammable, would also produce a potential for more unique puzzles! Maybe they aren't connected to anything, but I mean, you can jam fans that are off, so why can't you jam a jammer that isn't jamming anything?

You can't jam items, that's the logic. You can jam electrical devices, that are powered by things. There are many puzzles where you can notice things like "Minigun powered by switch", "Fan device powered by switch or laser", "Barrier that can be disabled with pressure plate or laser". These are all powered devices. Laser sources are not powered by anything. Thinking that because you can jam a fan then you could jam a jammer is not logical, because you don't jam a fan, you jam the device under it. Even if you remove the fan from the device, you can't jam the fan, because it's not what you're jamming. You can jam the fanless device, because it's what you're always jamming.

[checkers_of_shalmone]

Well, I know that even if the game did come with a huge disclaimer that says "DO GREENS THEN YELLOW THEN RED THEN GREY" I would STILL do it in linear order. This is just because I'd like to minimize backtracking as much as possible. We wouldn't have this problem if it weren't for taking such a long time to hop from A to B to C to B to A, and this is what I noticed in a player who streamed the game and kept hopping through hubs, and usually getting stuck on the puzzle again and then going back up the elevator.

Maybe you could call it my fault for "doing it in linear order", but it is most certainly NOT my fault that the handling of a linear, actual progression was so sloppy that this "desired order of solving" was needed. They even decided to put numbers on the gates (instead of labels) and an unlock system, so it even IMPLIES a "linear progression" because you can't go to A7 and do anything worthwhile from the start of the game, can you? I mean, there are even two types of linear progression! Did you notice some people solve puzzles in linear progression in whatever the hell order comes closest (that's me!) and some people go into a hub and pick the easiest first? Why this "halfway" deal? I think I know, because of backtracking not being so much of an issue.

Okay, so I can't jam items, but I can jam things attached to other things. So again, my subconcious makes a list of what a jammer cannot do. I also have this restriction of power sources, right?

Even though my reasoning is because things like power sources power themselves. It cannot jam a power source, okay, it cannot jam a power receiver (now that's strange, a power receiver is powered... by a connector), a switch (does it just "not have power?), a pressure plate (again) ... these are all connected to the ground or a wall, so again, why should I expect the fan device to be on the list of what jammer can do? And still the Jammer should also jam a recorder! I mean, "You can jam the fanless device, because it's what you're always jamming." is circular.

Edit: Strawmanned myself in that previous paragraph. I originally thought the new definition was going to be "Jammers can jam anything connected on a wall that can get power".

I'll admit, "Jammer can jam electrical devices that can receive power from things" is great, and it solves a lot of problems, but this definition is too much for a tool that only is capable of jamming a grand total of five things. "Jammers jam bombs, turrets, shockers, barriers, and fans." Now name me a more concise way of saying that by giving me a statement that fits for every one of these and doesn't produce anything inconsistent with what Jammers cannot do.

It also goes in the direction of being self-defeating! Some turrets and ALL mines don't have a source of power, but with the logic of the power sources "not powered by anything", the turrets and mines should also be unjammable as they are "not powered by anything".

[Solais]

The halfway done thing is like that because then you can have a choice: Either you go linear or you don't. I also go linearly, btw. But many tests showed differently.

You can't jam things attached to other things. You don't jam the thing attached to the other thing, you jam the other thing the thing is attached to.

Laser destinations, switches and pressure plates can't be jammed because they are not powered, they give power to the powered things, or in the case of pressure plates, or laser destinations, they remove power.

If you take the technical reasons within the editor, you can't jam things that are "activators", while you can jam those that are "activated". You can also can't jam "mechanics". The fan piece is a mechanic, but the fan device is not. This is why the fan device itself exists in the world even if the fan piece isn't because not yet unlocked. A recorder is also a mechanic, so it cannot be jammed.

But what can or can't be jammed is also part of the discovery in finding out how things work, which is a conscious part of the game design. Hell, I can actually tell you, that back then in beta, many mechanics or special uses of mechanics actually had "tutorial" puzzles. But they were removed, because it's better to show examples and let people figure out the rest. (With only the hexahedron on mine being the only one that's not shown explicitly and I still think that's a problem).

BTW, you can see some of these "tutorials" in this old video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9VojE2Erhs

[checkers_of_shalmone]

No, I disagree with the linear argument. Making it a boolean value is just begging for ambiguity, because then everyone is playing it "linearly" as they can't access C before getting a green sigil. By that, I mean the backtracking involved in going into, say, A3 and doing green then yellows then red, rather than worshipping the whole color coded thing.

What do you mean by "many tests"? Some people decided to go color coded from the very start? Sounds pretty illogical of a choice considering the backtracking involved (what if you accidentally a plot hole?). Honestly, it's almost like the difficulty of the puzzles might be the reason why. Color coded playstyle should come as a safety net just incase you're completely stumped. That's normal, but hub-hopping seems disproportionate punishment to me.

"You can't jam things attached to other things. You don't jam the thing attached to the other thing, you jam the other thing the thing is attached to."

Okay, well, still, what's the distinction between what Thing 1 is and what Thing 2 is? Both a switch and a turret are "things". At the end of the day, I want a definition that satisfies these five items, is less complex than the description of all five "jammables", and doesn't cause inconsistencies within the things the Jammer can't do. The more exceptions being thrown in just to satisfy what it cannot do doesn't help that part of the case.

"If you take the technical reasons within the editor"

Why is this part of it? We're talking about normal progression here and how a first-time player interprets the difficulty of the game. I'd like to meet the guy who believed he was so good at the game's mechanics (a game which he didn't even play yet) and dive into the editor face first.

It's certainly a great example "Activateds jammable, mechanics not" - this is what I wanted.
EDIT: I was wrong with the tautology thing. I've replaced it with another mine argument.

However, again with the mines. They can't be deactivated nor activated, maybe just blown up, but the buzzers can't blow up.

Speaking of beta, THAT VIDEO HAS EIGHT. EIGHT. Levels in the hub. Where are they?! >:O