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except "helping him properly" is a guide dang it, where you have to make the counterintuitive choices and do the opposite of what it would seem like you are supposed to do.
on my first playthrough, I was playing blind, not relying on a guide and made what the writing seemed to suggest was the correct choices based on the context of the situations, and this was the result.
I had to turn to the wiki to find out how to "help him properly"
but basically, I'm soured by the fact that if his personality is that unstable then I don't even want to "help him properly"
he definitely has some sort of disorder, perhaps Schizotypal or maybe borderline personality disorder, I dunno.
his holier than thou attiidude except when he has the opportunity to blame it on you mindset just rubs me the wrong way.
even as a female, I have no desire to romance this guy. (maybe because IRL I fancy myself to be chaotic good by nature, or at the very worst, neutral good. . .)
I'd rather have viconia or jaheira.
Just not the right thing for someone looking to join an order of paladins.
this quest isn't an "evil path" vs a "good path", it is law vs chaos, 2 different things.
this was 3 years ago and I don't remember all the dialogue, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't that clear cut.
maybe it's because like I said before, I'm more a chaotic good type of person and if you take the lawful path then you pretty much have to accept that the murderer gets away with it.
avenging the murder is not the "evil" thing to do, it's the "chaotic good" thing to do.
chaotic good : sometimes doing the right thing means killing everyone in the room
lawful good : sometimes doing the "right" thing means letting someone get away with murder(?)
I mean, I'm an American and I believe in the law and due process in the courts and I strongly believe in the concept of innocent until proven guilty, but it hurts when you know someone is guilty and they get off on a technicality and this is the situation that the game puts you in. You know the guy is guilty but he's getting off on a technicality.
and it's interesting because that's what "lawful evil" characters do, they find ways of being evil and doing bad things while twisting technicalities in the law so they can get away with things. a lawful evil lawmaker is gonna make laws that benefit themself and eneable them to continue being evil.
the point of my rant about anomen has nothing to do with the fact you can steer him to do the "lawful" thing.
regardless of the good path, I hate him based solely on his behavior if you don't do it right, because it's implied that even if he does become virtuous, that bad side is still buried deep within him.
we can pretend like, there are 2 parallel universes, one where he took the chaotic path and one where he took the lawful one.
in both universes, he is the same person, he just made different decisions.
I seemed to remember there being certain dialogue options in there to attempt to steer anomen the right way and it just pisses him off more and if you don't say exactly the right thing then he goes ahead and does the wrong thing anyway.
like,there was something you were supposed to say early in the quest and if you didn't say it, then you end up in a nose dive.
I think I may have also taken some of the wrong options because I felt like it was hopeless, doing the lawful thing, felt... wrong, it felt "lawful evil" rather than "lawful good", it doesn't make you feel good to take the lawful path.
regardless of whether you can help him become virtuous or not, I still think his personality is too volatile and I don't like him.
the crux of the matter here is that Anomen insists on taking the chaotic path,
then HE LAYS ALL THE BLAME ON YOU!
claiming that you should have guided him better, taking no responsibility for his own actions.
that's why I hate him.
it has nothing to do with his stats.
although I think I also felt cheated because taking the lawful path gives him a huge boost, but taking the chaotic path essentially "breaks" him and makes him a crappy companion.
p.s.
I don't hate the writing, I actually think it's creative of them to make this law vs chaos scenario that puts you in painful decision situation,
perhaps it's because it is such good writing that I feel so strongly about this
because we all know, that guy deserved to die and the only way to have the proper justice is to take the chaotic path because taking the lawful path just "feels wrong" it's like, you take the lawful path, anomen gets disowned by his family and the murderer gets away with it, wtf.
this is why I never played a paladin in tabletop d&d, the alignment is way too restrictive.
tl:dr
edit :
actually, I'm looking at the wiki to refresh my memory and now I remember that this is what pissed me off.
the quest has a "schroedinger's cat" twist.
if you take the chaotic path and kill saerk, then it is later revealed that he was innocent and then like, you did the wrong thing.
if you take the lawful path and let him get away with it, then it is revealed that he actually IS guilty and anomen tries to take revenge anyway, and this is the part where I screwed up, because If you don't do it right, you fail the romance with him.
the whole quest left me with a bad feeling because it felt like whatever choice you make, it's wrong.
edit 2:
actually digging deeper, I think what really made me upset wasn't so much anomen becoming broken, but the fact that I also had Keldorn in the party and chaotic neutral anomen will attack keldorn and attempt to kill him and you have to make a choice, keep anomen or keep keldorn, you can't have both.
I didn't mind taking the chaotic path, it was finding out much later, that by taking this path, it forced me to break up my party which I had built the way I wanted it and now had to change it and because I had saved over my old file, I couldn't go back and take a lawful path, not that I even wanted to anyway.
edit 3:
there's also a thing that happened to me when I took the chaotic path, it took several reloads to figure out the "right" thing to say to him to avoid him attacking me and then me being forced to kill him and the whole situatuion left me like, nope, I hate this guy.
even if his story is great writing, I hate him.
While you can do without Cleric, I'd still advice picking up one that isn't pure Cleric: Fighter/Clerics can enhance their already impressive fighting skills even further with clerical buffs (in a different way than Fighter/Mage), while Cleric/Mage is a formitable spellslinger Cleric with Mage firepower to boot.
Reason why I dislike pure Cleric (ie. Viconia) is quite simple: They peak out at level 15, only gaining handful of HP and some spell slots. No extra proficiencies, Attacks Per Round, nothing.
You can dual from Fighter to Cleric (like Anomen) around level 7-9 for virtually no downside at all.
and I decided to throw in my opinion and recommend Viconia or Jaheira instead because I like them better, it's personal preference.
Jaheira has harper's call which acts as a raise dead and insect plague makes many of the abundant mage encounters trivial.
Viconia, I like, because a female can have a romance with her.
Anomen , I hate because I failed the romance with him on my first blind run through and I found his chaotic neutral personality to be a huge turn-off
call me an SJW if you want (even though that's not even what it means), but I like that there's a same gender romance option in the game.
and I still don't get why so many people were angry about Mizhena, saying her "identity was being shoved in your face", because it wasn't.
I suspect that most of the people railing against the trans character and calling people SJW didn't actually do any research and were just parroting what they heard others saying and you know what, that's exactly what SJW's do.
but again I digressed.
in fact, I don't think you technically "need" a cleric at all. I use a cleric for convenience, because resting 8 hours only heals 1 hp to everyone, you need a cleric to cast cure light wounds or else you're gonna waste tons of time resting, or lots of money paying for healing at the temple
Actually, the Anomen can turn out a few ways. If your party has been noticeably evil, then he blames you for failing and turns hostile after failing. If your party has actually been good and he fails, then he blames the order and becomes chaotic neutral, but stays with you.
Getting Anomen to pass his trial is pretty darn easy. You just have to encourage him to behave like a Paladin. That means adhering to the law, not taking matters into his own hands and passing judgement without proper evidence.
If you choose not to avenge the murder of his sister, then he passes his trial and becomes a lawful good character. However, it's later discovered that his father's rival DID murder his sister (If you choose to avenge her, it's discovered they were just bandits). Thus prompting him to run off and confront them anyways.
Fun Fact, however, is that Anomen appears to be sexist. If you're a male character, he'll only join your party if you claim to be a brave force of righteousness. If you're a female character, he doesn't even bother asking. He'll join up with you, regardless!
The most you get in this game is the "fallen" status for Paladins and Rangers, but the lawful good Sir Anomen is not a Paladin and not affected by that. The game also handles party Reputation with a bias against you, so if you let all six party members murder someone, your player character takes the penalty because good/neutral aligned companions might break with you although they've committed the murder, too.
Your choices during conversation are much too obvious, such as convincing Anomen to obey law and visit the council and let them handle the case. It becomes clear that this is an opportunity to influence him in a crucial way and protect him from himself at this stage. The consequences of Anomen failing to pass his test could be dangerous for you, your goals and also the party.
It's summed up here:
http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Anomen_Returns_Home_After_his_Sister%27s_Death
http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/Walkthrough2/SoA/chapter-2/quests/npc-anomen-is-called-home.php
And as chaotic good you would become a murderer yourself so easily?
No, it isn't. Murder is a crimininal act that moves you closer to the evil side. If you're chaotic neutral, you may balance it out, since murder decreases your reputation and makes evil aligned companions happier whereas if you don't balance it out, you lose your good/neutral companions at the point where apparently you've turned completely fully evil.
There's a difference between killing and murder. Especially in the game.
Lawful good means to let well-organized good aligned authorities do the right thing.
I agree, it's a pity there aren't more of these alignment shifting gray areas in the game.
I find this to be the most interesting part of the entire series that really got my emotions all kicked up.
except, chaos vs law are a totally different concept than good vs evil , its not some hierarcy like lawful good>neutral good>chaotic good
then where would a chaotic good person shift? to lawful neutral next? then true neutral?
and only after becoming chaotic neutral, only then they would become evil? and then what, they turn lawufl evil?
commiting a chaotic act, doesn't make you evil, it just makes you chaotic.
a chaotic neutral character is basically, an insane unpredictable borderline personality disorder and will do whatever, with no logic or reasoning.
so in this sense, the writers actually played it straight here.
a true neutral alignment as stated in the PHB believes in the balance of both good and evil and will even shift allegiances and help the evil side if they consider it too unbalanced.
but helping the evil side isn't an "evil" act in a true neutral's mind, it is an act that brings balance back to The Force.
what isn't obvious is that taking the chaotic path can end up ruining all your future interactions with anomen, causing him to become hostile to party members or yourself, essentially making him unplayable
going in blind, I had no idea that anomen had such the potential to snap like this. his desire to avenge his familiy seemed noble, borne out of grief, not insanity. I never expected him to lash out the way he did.
I knew he would fail the knight's test and I didn't mind that part.
but when his family disowned him and he started murdering, it upset me and made me dislike him, but I decided to play it through anyway because that meant that the murdering bastard that killed his father wouldn't escape justice, but then the guy turns out to be innocent and anomen goes insane and attacks you and wow, just wow.
I agree that it is not "good" to "murder" someone, but avenging the death by killing an obviously evil person whom you know is guilty of destroying your family is the chaotic good thing to do. you are removing an evil person from the world, outside of the bounds of the law.
I wouldn't just fly off the handle and murder someone based on no evidence at all except word of mouth,
but everything in this quest leads you to believe that the guy is guilty.
plus, if you already tried it once and took the lawful path, they REVEAL THAT HE IS GUILTY, so based on that metaknowledge, you might say "frig this, I'm taking the chaotic path "
but then it isn't obvious that it will twist it later and make him innocent, wtf.
as for killing the other innocent people.
I didn't make the decision to slaughter the Saerk's innocent family, anomen did that on his own.
when I took the path, i was expecting like, a confrontation culminating with an honorable duel, not this obviously unhinged borderline personality paladin wannabe going on a mass serial killing slaughter.
the kick in the teeth is that if you kill the guy, they twist it to make him innocent so there's only one "right" answer.
in real life, I would never suggest someone take the law into their own hands as much as I would like to, but, this is a fictional setting and in these stories, the bad guy constantly gets away with stuff by manipulating the law to their advantage.
the game leads you to believe that staying lawful will allow this guy to slip through the cracks.
if you are genre savvy and watched enough dirty harry, robocop, arnold swarzenegger, stallone movies then you would think that the right thing to do is the chaotic thing to do.
this is the part that I considered counterintuitive. because it makes you think the guy would have gotten away with it and the "correct" thing to do is to take the chaotic path and screw the order of plaladins and whatever.
but they really are enforcing that the only "correct" path is the lawful path and that is what I found to be not so clear cut at all
and it kind of forces to have that blind faith in the law,
the quest punishes you for not blindly trusting in the integrity of the court system.
expecially since, if you kill Sark, it modifies to ending to turn out that he was actually innocent but if you don't kill him, he turns out to be guilty and then anomen leaves your party and attempts to kill him anyway and then and only then, can you convince anomen to stand down and then convince the Sark to turn himself in so in the lawful path, the murderer actually is brought to justice but in a roundabout way.
either way, the law failed, it was only by your careful guidance of anomen's development that you are able to convince him to be able to convince the Sark to bring himself to justice and this is totally not obvious at all.
so yeah it's interesting that you are able to come to a favorable conclusion while working within the boundaries of the law, but in real life this is a rare thing.
people get away with bad stuff all the time and even a chaotic good person like me has to accept that and be obedient for fear of the law to come crashing down on them.
and yeah, I said I have a chaotic good mindset, but I would not just go out and kill, for example, O.J. Simpson. He was judged innocent by a jury of his peers, so I accept that.
karma caught up with him anyway.
so maybe that's the real lesson here?
again, this is why I won't play the lawful good alignment in tabletop, because it is too complicated and too easy to lose it.
bottom line, I don't hate anomen not because of the writing, which I think is really good
I hate him because he has the "potential" to become a real PoS.
even though you can make it so that doesn't happen, just knowing that it could happen makes me hate him.
It depends on your actions and how they affect alignment. A chaotic good person may stay chaotic good with an overwhelming number of good actions, but may shift towards lawful good if accepting the law more often than not. A chaotic good person can become chaotic evil easily with an overwhelming number of evil deeds.
Dunno what "a chaotic act" is. If you get Anomen - initially lawful neutral - to ignore the authorities, that makes his decision to confront the alleged murder a chaotic behavior, but actually murdering them for revenge is an evil deed. Imagine you storm into the house only to talk a bit, and then you visit the council nevertheless. Not calling on Anomen to remain lawful is the obvious risk you take, given his introductory behavior and given that he's lawful neutral, which would mean that if his father commanded him to kill someone, he would obey. More such deeds, and he could turn lawful evil. Fortunately, his relationship with his father raises some questions, and you know about his plans to join The Order.
Which is one of the attributes of a "chaotic" aligned person. Chaotic individuals may not be party compatible.
Nah. It's a role-playing game. You choose an alignment for your bhaalspawn (and receive a starting reputation), and depending on your choice, you're free to influence or manipulate Anomen or not.
Lack of evidence. Have followed that murder trial, too, btw.
I think the writing Anomen's his quest is very good and makes you think.
i agree it's obvious what you are "supposed" to do to get him to be lawful good.
what wasn't obvious was how much of a totally screwed and irredeemable mess you create by not taking that route.
yeah, the way he acts, is esacly how a chaotic neutral person would act, which is why it even states in the PHB that chaotic neutral people are insane bordeline personalities. which is why I commend the devs for doing it properly even though I had no idea this would happen. . .
even though you can influence anomen to stay lawful, the fact that this can happen to him is what makes me dislike him as a character personally.
Edwin is evil, but he's way more fun to mess with.
but this thread is about clerics and I like Viconia, that's my opinion.
This! And I may add, what would BG2 be without Skeles! :)