FortressCraft Evolved

FortressCraft Evolved

VladK02 Aug 29, 2016 @ 10:41am
hard rock grinders cost too much resin
what title says. I count i need 4 rock grinders to craft a trencher.

Thats 4600 resin. Thats insane!

I harvested 2 monster hive minds allready, fully grown things, and i still dont have enough!

EDIT - i come to conclusion that I need to set up a permanent resin farm, looks like. 32-48 resin harvesters in a sphere around the hive mind, a crapton of power, a dedicated feeding line (or 10)... Thats going to take days to set up....
Last edited by VladK02; Aug 29, 2016 @ 10:46am
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Showing 1-15 of 17 comments
Ialaman Aug 29, 2016 @ 10:46am 
It's been reduced in the current development version. I don't know what it's been changed to though. I know because I complained about this too. :)
Grumpy Old Gamer Aug 29, 2016 @ 12:42pm 
Power isnt really an issue with resin farms, since you can always use the resin to power a turbine. Each resin generally contains enough energy to harvest 2-3 more resin. As fro a feed line, well, thats just a quarry, powered by resin powered turbines.

Although personally I power my resin farm with a MK2 Organic Solar Arroy. Have about 5k liquified resin in my inventory and probably need to clear some space in myhopper array for more. All from a single hivemind with 4 ablaters/liquifiers. Just make sure you are starving the liquifiers and not overloading the refiners. I have 9 refiners handing the resin flow, and it keeps up nicely.
Nedrith Aug 29, 2016 @ 12:53pm 
Originally posted by Zombie Bait:
Power isnt really an issue with resin farms, since you can always use the resin to power a turbine. Each resin generally contains enough energy to harvest 2-3 more resin. As fro a feed line, well, thats just a quarry, powered by resin powered turbines.

Although personally I power my resin farm with a MK2 Organic Solar Arroy. Have about 5k liquified resin in my inventory and probably need to clear some space in myhopper array for more. All from a single hivemind with 4 ablaters/liquifiers. Just make sure you are starving the liquifiers and not overloading the refiners. I have 9 refiners handing the resin flow, and it keeps up nicely.

you don't even need a quarry, just hook it up to the nearest ore vein far enough underground, it's really that easy.

Power it doesn't take much. My last base was using 8 liquifiers, 14 ablators and 6 refiners. Probably got the ratios all screwed up because in the end I was figuiring i'd just place a few extra here and there. Mostly powered by solar as well. Had more resin then I knew what to do with. Even after this:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=735246472

Each of those batteries are capped with a mk2 organic solar and powered my defenses and resin handling. There's another one a lot further away for my CC T4 area. Resin is pretty easy to get a hold of if you know what you are doing. I should note that the entire system only went through 2 veins. Would of been less but I didn't automate the shutoff.
Grumpy Old Gamer Aug 29, 2016 @ 1:01pm 
I prefer to use garbage instead of ore. General though I just seperate out the iron adn copper ore and feed the rest to the mynoks, the iron and copper get turned into iron gears and basic conveyors adn then fed to the mynoks. Unless I have some specific need for an ore, like nickel or gold.

Using a quarry then is more efficient in the long run, as I can harvest the ore and feed the trash to the mynoks, and a quarry never runs out, although at some point it will take more energy than you can extract from the resin. But since 1 garbage = 2.5 liquified resin and each resin gives over 50k energy, I dont see anyone running it that long.
Last edited by Grumpy Old Gamer; Aug 29, 2016 @ 1:04pm
Nedrith Aug 29, 2016 @ 1:06pm 
Generally speaking I find the output of a quarry to be worthless. By using an OE I can specifically target the type of ore I want and get 10x as much ore out of vein. Any ore my OE was attached to for mynocks was quite worthless, the coal was never going to get used as the vein was too small as it was only 500k or so and I was quickly switching to solar power. The other vein was too small for an OE as well, I only used veins above 1m. It's also a large bonus that the OE was powered using only less than 1 PPS.

stuff labeled garbage is generally useful though, I like my construction paste even if I had quite a bit of excess!
Ialaman Aug 29, 2016 @ 1:30pm 
Originally posted by Zombie Bait:
Power isnt really an issue with resin farms, since you can always use the resin to power a turbine. Each resin generally contains enough energy to harvest 2-3 more resin. As fro a feed line, well, thats just a quarry, powered by resin powered turbines.

Although personally I power my resin farm with a MK2 Organic Solar Arroy. Have about 5k liquified resin in my inventory and probably need to clear some space in myhopper array for more. All from a single hivemind with 4 ablaters/liquifiers. Just make sure you are starving the liquifiers and not overloading the refiners. I have 9 refiners handing the resin flow, and it keeps up nicely.

The complaint I had about the resin requirements was that there was a massive jump in cost. Prior to FF the biggest resin expenses you'll have will be about 500 resin needed to blow up hive minds for Spiderbot's final weapon, or under 100 resin for a mk2 organic solar panel. Then you get to FF and you suddenly need almost 5k resin before you can even make the basic trenchers. That's a huge spike in the amount of resin you need on hand. My resin factory was set to shut off at 2k resin, and it had 6 refiners. Making that extra 3k resin was a ton of time that was not a whole lot of fun.

My favorite part though is how after there's this massive spike of thousands of resin needed just for that first step in to FF, it's not used again for any of the other further recipes. After those first trenchers are made you can just destroy your resin farm.
Nedrith Aug 29, 2016 @ 1:40pm 
Originally posted by Ialaman:

My favorite part though is how after there's this massive spike of thousands of resin needed just for that first step in to FF, it's not used again for any of the other further recipes. After those first trenchers are made you can just destroy your resin farm.

Let's see trencher MK2 requires 64 resin per 9 blocks, 192 resin for a complete trencher MK2 drill, same for the MK3.

filter requires 32 refined resin for a 5 blocks or 480 resin for a complete filter. <---- you'll use more resin in this recipe than for grinder themselves after making all the filters you'll want.

geothermal is 64 resin per 5 blocks , 960 resin for a complete generator. <--- same as above

note that these are just the recipes that use a significant amount of resin. there are a few others such as the mesh weaver when building it or the compressor

Last edited by Nedrith; Aug 29, 2016 @ 1:42pm
VladK02 Aug 29, 2016 @ 6:42pm 
took me half a day but i have set up a very nice 20x harvesters cube farm around my hivemind. Nice and symmetrical.

It can perma-harvest resin at a slow pace a green hopper gives, or burst-harvest up to ~30 garbage-worth.

But by god, a hive mind grows fast once its fed.... i recon to fully tank a full speed growing hivemind, i'd need something like 50-60 harvesters on it, if not more...
DirtyCamper Aug 30, 2016 @ 12:31am 
Originally posted by Nedrith:
stuff labeled garbage is generally useful though, I like my construction paste even if I had quite a bit of excess!
I usually run out of construction paste faster than I can count budget. I think I am going to level a few mountains, and grind that to paste.
I also noted that creating trusses from the toolbar creates 5 truss per paste, and collecting them delivers 1 paste per truss.
Space windows cost 8 paste to create and collecting them gives 1 paste per window.
So maybe I should switch to truss and only use space windows and the other thing for lasers, and create truss for remaining constructions.
But currently I am making my workspace with re-inforced concrete blocks or something like that.
Sphinx Aug 30, 2016 @ 12:39am 
Its a lot. I am feeding with 3 green hoppers, and transfering 9k power to my ablator, harvester setup + 15 refinieries to keep up with the 150 resin/min. But with this rate it still takes over 1 hour for every hard rock grinder. Good that this is beeing worked on..it killed my motivation to play FF when i did the math. And only after some weeks + beeing bored i am not in the mood to begin this quest for resin.
Nedrith Aug 30, 2016 @ 1:12am 
Honestly though a hour per a hard rock grinder is really not that bad IMO. that's only 4 hours to get enough for all the requirements for the trencher. Which gives you enough time to get the C5 ready to be built, setup an imbued machine line, setup cargo lifts to the T4 level, I would recommend atleast 2 per an ore. Map out a few ore veins, you'll need multiple and do a lot of other random stuff like make a large flat area in the cold caverns.

BTW, the new recipe for the HRG is 128 resin per 3 HRG blocks or 1/3 of what it was. The rest of the resources required are quite trivial.

Ialaman Aug 30, 2016 @ 7:00am 
Originally posted by Nedrith:
Originally posted by Ialaman:

My favorite part though is how after there's this massive spike of thousands of resin needed just for that first step in to FF, it's not used again for any of the other further recipes. After those first trenchers are made you can just destroy your resin farm.

Let's see trencher MK2 requires 64 resin per 9 blocks, 192 resin for a complete trencher MK2 drill, same for the MK3.

filter requires 32 refined resin for a 5 blocks or 480 resin for a complete filter. <---- you'll use more resin in this recipe than for grinder themselves after making all the filters you'll want.

geothermal is 64 resin per 5 blocks , 960 resin for a complete generator. <--- same as above

note that these are just the recipes that use a significant amount of resin. there are a few others such as the mesh weaver when building it or the compressor

I was not aware of that, as I'm not to that point in FF yet, but none of the stuff I do have access to requires it. I have also checked the wiki and none of it is listed there, though the hard rock grinder is mentioned.

Even with those in mind, though, the hard rock grinder cost was absurd. 128 per block, 9 blocks per grinder, with 6 total grinders needed before you could have trenchers running on both T4 ore types for a grand total of 6912 resin to make your first two trenchers. I mean, look at Vlad who already thinks it's insane that he needs 4600 resin. He won't be any happier when he finds out he needs another 2300 to get full T4 ore extraction running.
Jonathan Aug 30, 2016 @ 7:23am 
I choose not to agree.

You need a lot of resin.
That's a fact.
You need to set an efficient resin farm.
It's a little different then a ore/bar farm, but not that much.



Rock Grinder NEED to be costly. Developper need to get sure you will want to switch to Trenchers asap. They are a pain in the lower back, but they are just a... Step. A gating system. They are forcing you to massivly upgrade your resin farm to be able to access further gameplay.




Frozen Factoey needs a massive amount of everything. (Geothermal plants require 15,000 moly bars + 15,000 chrom bars !)

This does not mean you will spend your time "waiting".

This means you need to upgrade your production. That is the main challenge of FF. Upgrading your production, trying to minimize the losts/waste to an acceptable ratio, automating stuff. More then before.

Many strategies need to up adjusted compared to the base game.





It's depressing when you look only at numbers, but not that bad once you get down to it. It works.
Last edited by Jonathan; Aug 30, 2016 @ 7:24am
Jonathan Aug 30, 2016 @ 7:36am 
Also, to complete my own post :


Arc smelthers are super-slow. You do not need your 3 hard rock grinders riht from the start.

1- build 1.
2- use it on moly. (Receive 2000 moly ores).
3- Feed those 2000 ores to your arc smelther (I personally did only one arc smelther).
4- Get 1000 more resin to get a 2nd Grimder.
5- Built 2nd grinder.
6- Use on chrome (get 2000 ores).
7- Feed ores to Arc smelther.
8- you should have enough for a first Trencher. Set it on Moly.
9- Build 3rd Grinder. Set it on Chrom.
10- Feed to Arc Smelther.
11- 2nd trencher.
12- now start working on yojr blast furnaces, and automating moly/chrom.......


Take any down time to fix what needs.to be fixed, upgrade resin farm further, work on your workfloors excavators that are clearing some room for you Froze Factory base, and so on...
Last edited by Jonathan; Aug 30, 2016 @ 7:39am
Ialaman Aug 30, 2016 @ 10:29am 
Originally posted by Jonathan:
Rock Grinder NEED to be costly. Developper need to get sure you will want to switch to Trenchers asap. They are a pain in the lower back, but they are just a... Step. A gating system. They are forcing you to massivly upgrade your resin farm to be able to access further gameplay.

Frozen Factoey needs a massive amount of everything. (Geothermal plants require 15,000 moly bars + 15,000 chrom bars !)

This does not mean you will spend your time "waiting".

This means you need to upgrade your production. That is the main challenge of FF. Upgrading your production, trying to minimize the losts/waste to an acceptable ratio, automating stuff. More then before.

The rock grinders don't need to be costly as an incentive to get people to make trenchers. People will want to make trenchers because grinders are manual, one-use machines. People will make trenchers ASAP because they're continual ore extractors for T4. As far as upgrading production, well, again, the hard rock grinders are why that's prohibitive. At the level that you're using the grinders they're literally the only way for you to get T4 ores. You can't work on other T4 production because, well, you literally can't. You can't mine it.

Originally posted by Jonathan:
Arc smelthers are super-slow. You do not need your 3 hard rock grinders riht from the start.

1- build 1.
2- use it on moly. (Receive 2000 moly ores).
3- Feed those 2000 ores to your arc smelther (I personally did only one arc smelther).
4- Get 1000 more resin to get a 2nd Grimder.
5- Built 2nd grinder.
6- Use on chrome (get 2000 ores).
7- Feed ores to Arc smelther.
8- you should have enough for a first Trencher. Set it on Moly.
9- Build 3rd Grinder. Set it on Chrom.
10- Feed to Arc Smelther.
11- 2nd trencher.
12- now start working on yojr blast furnaces, and automating moly/chrom.......

Sadly your plan breaks at step 8. A grinder gets you 2048 ore max, which smelts down to 128 bars max depending on your setting. (side note: this is actually going to be even lower once the arc smelter nerf goes in) A basic trencher motor + drill costs 150 bars of each. This is why you need a minimum of 2 grinders for each ore type. Also, after building your first trencher, you'll be left with 106 bars, so you'll need another one on the second ore type to be able to hit 150 bars of that to build the second trencher.

You underestimated the number of grinders needed by 40%.

p.s. I would set the first trencher on Chromium, as you go through a little more of that than you do Moly because of chromed lenses. Not a big deal though.
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Date Posted: Aug 29, 2016 @ 10:41am
Posts: 17