Freight vs Minecarts

[Zenthar]

I've been playing FCE on and off for a few years and came back for the adventurer pack to see all the new toys to mess with. One being the new freight system. So far I can only say that I don't get it. After configuring a simple network for moving ore from a trencher to a lift, they seem pitiful compared to the older minecarts. They bump into eachother even when given turnout lanes, they takes ages to load and unload, and despite all my efforts they never move as much as they claim to be able to move. The freighters claiming to have 500 storage only ever seem to pull about 50 or so ore out of the trencher and go on their merry way.

The old minecarts passed through eachother and you could simply put a couple dozen of them on a track with plenty of load/unload stations to get the throughput you want, but these new things are just confusing. Even with 9 load/unload freighter ports and about 2 dozen freighters the throughput is noticably lower than a simple 9-belt conveyor line to move only 50m away.

I've tried searching for info about this topic but finding good info is proving difficult as the system has changed so much over the years that almost nothing is accurate anymore. Am I using the system wrong? Or are minecarts simply better at moving ore?

[Wariat117]

well, first things first:
Do you have steveman's freights cart fixing mod installed?
All freightcartl fixes that didn't make it into the game should be in this mod.


other than that screenshots would help, like:
- settings in the stations (both output and input one)
- the system itself, how the rails look like/etc (since they get stuck on each other... do you have separate rails for going in and separate rails for returning? with the one way tracks at stations to tell the carts where to go?)
- screenshots of the "stuck" points (for example the top 3 places where minecarts keep getting stuck)


whole world would be "best" because one can test all your stuff themself and find out what's going on
there might also be some mod that messes stuff (unlikely, because mods touching freights are scarce)


PS
Generally answering your question,
Freights are considered a much better version of minecarts
Minecarts are considered "obsolute" and in the next game they will be totally removed and only freights will stay

[Zenthar]

I can't provide any screenshots at the moment as the server I run on is offline atm, but so far I have not been running the bug fix mod. I picked it up now and I'll tell the host to do so as well when they come online. So far the only time the carts bump into eachother is when they literally ignore rail signs and drive backwards through one-way signs. I'm hoping this is one of the fixes in the mod.

My main drop-off is a circle around a cargolift with hoppers and 8 freight ports. Each dropoff point has a turnout for if it's in use and the whole rail is one directional with a defined inlet and outlet.

https://i.imgur.com/RksYyxe.jpg

The trencher is a similar setup though it's only 3 sides instead of 4 with a second level for loading. My main issues so far is carts ignoring signs on occasion, and carts not loading as much as they claim to be able to hold.

As for mods, it's just the GPS tool, autoexcavator v2, and distribution splitter.

[Wariat117]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1935973413
I have forgot to actually link the mod

And forgot to mention that you can use normal minecarts in the freights system, they will be converted into freight cart version of them.


from picture I get that
orange squares = hoppers
blue squares connected to orange squares = stations (so 2 stations per 3 hoppers)
singular blue lines = rails

I can't figure out what are those blue rectangles that are partially placed on stations (rails for freights to go around?)


But at this moment I can't really help, I have only connected my freights to mass storage system
steveman seems to visit forum once a day, and since he is creator he might be able to help

Originally posted by Zenthar:

drive backwards through one-way signs.

I have seen this bug o-o But I didn't use the fix mod either ;d

[Zenthar]

Yeah sorry for the potato MS paint skills there. The blue lines are rails that have junctions to go around full stations. After running the fix-it mod nearly all the bugs and issues we had were cleared up. Carts started listening to signs correctly. Bulk ore carts started actually bringing full 1000 loads or ore. Even the track monitor seems to work better now. Was able to drop the stations down from 8 to 4 and only a handful of carts to keep a lift stocked on each cycle.

I had seen a few other posts about recommending that mod but figured it was just minor improvements or QoL features. Turns out freight barely even works without it. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

On another note, what setups do you run for loading a lift from a trencher? Do you run some sort of ore mass storage into freight?

[Wariat117]

Originally posted by Zenthar:

On another note, what setups do you run for loading a lift from a trencher? Do you run some sort of ore mass storage into freight?

I build a lift as close as possible to trencher and then spaghetti of transport pipes take the ore to the hoppers around the lift

generally there is at least single lift per ore vein

also I'm more of the mod person than optimize-system person
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2163696441
trencher doesn't get stuck if it holds up to 500m ore inside ;D

[Peel]

I'm relatively new to Freight (without the fixes mod) but have had very few problems.

My general suggestion would be to have stations on branches instead of bypass routes - that way carts only go down the station branch when they are needed there and the main line can stay moving. I'm not sure how to extend this to such a dense set of stations though, would one station per side provide enough throughput?

The only problems I've run into was a queue at one station overflowing onto the main grid, and occasionally a cart putting too much into a mass storage (which meant there wasn't enough room for other item types). I quickly discovered this was because offer and receiver stations assign carts separately, best to only allow one or the other to pull carts (I've gone with receivers). As for overstocking, the only fix I've found so far is having an oversized storage. Neither should be a problem on this one type network though...

[steveman0]

To start, it's logically impossible for carts to ignore a one-way track. At most, at the start of the game before the system has fully constructed the grid and carts have visited the first junction to establish a proper route carts might get turned around in a congested spot but once they hit the one-way track they'll stop and turn around to follow its instructions. After a route is formed, they will never disobey the one-way tracks to the extent they'll never even enter a track segment if it would require them disobeying a one-way track on the segment. This is true even without the freight fixes mod. You must have a one-way track on each rail segment however. There is no implicit one-way recognition between segments. So if you intersperse many junctions, you must also add one-ways to retain the directional restriction on each segment. No exceptions.

While old carts passing through each other enabled higher theoretical throughputs on a given track line, the limiting factor was always the stations. Station throughput for non-freighters is the same as vanilla, 180 items per minute. For freighters, the limit is 900 items per minute, so ore-freighters will have much higher throughput per station relative to vanilla. This was one of the main purposes of introducing freighters. Even a single line of track can support many carts so throughput will virtually never be limited by the density of carts on a track line. At least for track lines in remote areas like singular ore delivery sites. I've seen some congested 'city centers' where a lot of carts funneled through a main junction that could slow things down, but this was in grids that had 100+ carts moving goods.

Fundamentally, freight works the same with or without the bug fixes mod. There are a few edge case scenarios that aren't possible if you don't have the mod, but basic principles will work regardless. There are a few bugs fixed that smooth over otherwise rare situations with carts getting stuck, but the basic implementation doesn't change. This means that the logic for setting cart stocking points and general routing remains the same. It sounds like your grid is simply missing some important one-way tracks to enforce directionality on all segments. Once you get the hang of placing these in all required segments and establish consistent approaches to grid expansion you'll find adding new stations and cart capacity will be straightforward.

Using ore freighters for max throughput trenchers is one of the most challenging use cases for freight carts. They're made available from early in T1 progression with the expectation that you'll get the feel for them in much simpler use cases first before growing to these sorts of challenges. Overall, I'm impressed with the scope of your implementation based on your layout for this being your first use of the system. There's no doubt that freight has a learning curve, but you'll find the power it offers in flexible logistics across numerous purposes in your fortress is well worth it. I hope you keep learning as it will all pay off in the end.

[Wariat117]

Originally posted by steveman0:

This is true even without the freight fixes mod.

I can definitely confirm it's not true, I had the minecarts ignoring one way tracks in fresh system without restarting the game (I didn't try if the fixes mod resolved this issue, but simple removal of existing minecarts fixed it)

Just built it, and added minecarts, they did some runs good, and then started to ignore the one way track and bump into each other

Originally posted by steveman0:

So if you intersperse many junctions, you must also add one-ways to retain the directional restriction on each segment. No exceptions.

and if there is only junction (the one to insert minecarts) and it has one way tracks on both sides then it's enough?

the system I described before (where minecarts started to ignore the one way tracks randomly) had one way tracks only at both sides of both stations (one input, one output) and at the both sides single junction
that was very small freight system, like 4-6 segments max

[steveman0]

Originally posted by Wariat117:

Originally posted by steveman0:

This is true even without the freight fixes mod.

I can definitely confirm it's not true, I had the minecarts ignoring one way tracks in fresh system without restarting the game (I didn't try if the fixes mod resolved this issue, but simple removal of existing minecarts fixed it)

Just built it, and added minecarts, they did some runs good, and then started to ignore the one way track and bump into each other

This has never been demonstrated and I can't possibly see this as being possible. Carts can't route against one-way tracks. It simply isn't possible to select a route that disobeys a one-way. The only possible way of arranging this is to inject a one-way track while a cart is already traversing the segment. This isn't really ignoring the one-way so much as throwing it in the cart's face and won't apply for more than the instant the cart hits the one-way and turns around (at which point the carts route is deleted because it is invalid).

Carts also literally cannot travel through a one-way in reverse. The moment they hit it they turn around so they'll never cross it which means they're righted immediately which prevents any long term blockage. Please don't spread misinformation based on very contrived efforts to explicitly break the system. This scenario is not something that will happen in realistic practices. If you actually can reliably reproduce it then show it. Claims without evidence are only going to cause more confusion for new players. 99.9% certain that you made a mistake.

Originally posted by steveman0:

So if you intersperse many junctions, you must also add one-ways to retain the directional restriction on each segment. No exceptions.

and if there is only junction (the one to insert minecarts) and it has one way tracks on both sides then it's enough?

the system I described before (where minecarts started to ignore the one way tracks randomly) had one way tracks only at both sides of both stations (one input, one output) and at the both sides single junction
that was very small freight system, like 4-6 segments max

Every navigable location and location must have one-ways on every path between them. Stations, junctions, and depots are all navigable points in the routing grid. One ways are required to enforce directionality outside/around these locations. It sounds like you overlooked something or otherwise injected them after you were already running carts on the system.

[Zenthar]

It is possible that a route was modified after adding carts and they kept following the old path through a one way sign since they didn't go back to a cart depot. It's also possible that simply resetting the server forced all the carts in my track to reset and that's what fixed everything rather than the fix-it mod. At this point, I've learned a lot and everything is working well so I'm grateful for all the help provided here.

[steveman0]

Firstly, adding a one-way within a track segment would require deleting an existing track in the segment. This queues an action to review the track grid for this segment. When the review finds a connected junction it will reset the track grid. This reset clears the entire nav mesh and invalidates the routes for all active carts on the grid. Any cart with an invalid route will reroute on their next arrival at a navigation node. This will cause 99% of cases to result in carts rerouting a different segment before they could even encounter the one-way.

Secondly, even for the carts that are already on the very segment changed, the cart will not disobey the one-way track. On encountering it, the cart will automatically turn around and return to the prior junction. At this point, it'll see it's route has been invalidated or otherwise recognize it is not at the expected junction of its old route, and proceed to reroute along a valid path. So no, it won't blindly pass through the one-way even in this scenario.

[Zenthar]

Been loving Freight so far but I've seen a number of times where the carts will just derp out and stay parked in a bay without loading or unloading. Most of the time it's when the bay is set to Full Load, which I've read from other posts is a bad option to choose. Yet if I choose Any Load, the carts will often leave a mass storage of hundreds of bars with only tiny loads. Is the Full Load option simply broken at times? Or does it have to be used in a specific manner? The storage always has plenty of stock for a full load yet the cart just sits there kinda wobbling back and forth like a spaz.

[steveman0]

Originally posted by Zenthar:

Been loving Freight so far but I've seen a number of times where the carts will just derp out and stay parked in a bay without loading or unloading. Most of the time it's when the bay is set to Full Load, which I've read from other posts is a bad option to choose. Yet if I choose Any Load, the carts will often leave a mass storage of hundreds of bars with only tiny loads. Is the Full Load option simply broken at times? Or does it have to be used in a specific manner? The storage always has plenty of stock for a full load yet the cart just sits there kinda wobbling back and forth like a spaz.

It's not broken, it simply works exactly as stated. The cart must not leave until it is full. If you've set your stock points so this is not possible however, the cart will never leave. This means you have to carefully consider cases you use it. If you have a line that only requests 10 of something periodically, odds are a cart will not fill to full for a long while, if at all, and leave that small request unsatisfied for a while. If you have several stations with 10+ carts serving, if several carts fill up it can also lead to a situation where none will be able to fill to full if demand is only a hundred or so. This might resolve itself if you have enough capacity on the requesting side such that demand increases so one of the carts can fill, but that comes down to your designed stock points and usage.

Wait for any is the most sensible option in nearly all cases. If the cart is leaving with only tiny loads, it's because you have only tiny, sporadic demand. The cart leaving early isn't substantially impacting throughput if you have such low demand. If it did, then that demand would accumulate such that the next time it'd fill with more before leaving. The worst case latency for any delivery is the round-trim time for a cart. For even the longest trips, this is only a few minutes. I've honestly rarely found cases for where wait for full can't just be avoided by stock limit/inventory size adjustments.

[Wariat117]

Originally posted by steveman0:

Wait for any is the most sensible option in nearly all cases. If the cart is leaving with only tiny loads, it's because you have only tiny, sporadic demand.

Soo... if I understand correctly then
"wait for any" = "wait for full OR until request is satisfied"
?

[Zenthar]

That makes sense. I didn't think of the fact that they'd only withdraw what is needed before leaving. Sounds like I need to Up the demand on the dropoff so they start collecting more before leaving. My machine block makers keep running dry in between freight deliveries so hopefully just upping the demand for the request stops should help.