Improving the Camera

[Ranen]

I so far love this game, but I would like to voice my complaint about the camera and how to improve it.

There is the ball camera, which tracks the ball in the air, and the car camera, which tracks the direction of the car. A sweet-spot between the two would be to look at the circle that the ball draws on the ground.
The context in this is that the ball camera can be incredibly disorienting, and the car camera makes it difficult to keep track of the ball. Being able to look at the spot on the ground the ball is would be loads of help.
In the camera change button you could have it cycle as such when choosing to switch: ball cam -> circle cam -> car cam -> circle cam ->repeat.
The reason for this is that when switching from car to circle would horizontally point you to the ball, and then from circle to ball it would engage the vertical locking. From ball to circle, it disengages vertical locking, and so on.

Following suit, I would like to voice concern about the ball circle. The radius of the ball tracker is exponential, making it difficult to really know how high up the ball is when on car camera, and also giving some problem to a ball that is quickly elevating or falling. If it was a linear representation (100% radius while grounded, 0% when ceiling, 50% when mid-height, so on), it would be more reliable and easy to track where the ball is. I don't believe this will tarnish the balance at all, only make it so that skill is the factor of whether or not i control the ball, not the necessity for an astronaut's trained sense of balance.

If there are any problems I didn't pick up, please voice them, I don't mind being wrong as I find out the right answer.

[GraveYuppo]

yes pretty much everyone i know wants this but i don't think it's happening.
it's retarded how you lose track of everything when in ball camera and the ball goes over you or too high up

[BloodyRain2k]

I can only agree with this. The whole game is very well made and also wonderful looking, but the camera is just a pain in the back for me : (

When the ball is above me I can't even tell anymore which direction I am facing or if my wheels are even on the ground, and when I'm on walls my orientation just goes bye bye...
I'd wish there'd be a setting to control how much being on walls offsets the camera up and down and a seperate one to allow it following the roll from being on the wall.
I don't know if that'd actually help me but well, being able to try it would be nice.

Seriously, almost all misses when trying to hit the ball from or at walls am I blaming on the jerk that the camera does to the view angle :o
It feels like when someone takes your head and turns it to make you look in a certain direction, it does work but damn you have no idea where you're looking until the jerking is done.

I already tried playing with the camera settings but the defaults are good, because whatever I tried out just made it worse :x

[Quantillusium]

Can't argue this, but then you see high level players and they don't seem to have problems in either camera mode, switching as needed. Perhaps you'll also get used to it with time and practice.

[Ranen]

Originally posted by Wonko the Sane:

Can't argue this, but then you see high level players and they don't seem to have problems in either camera mode, switching as needed. Perhaps you'll also get used to it with time and practice.

After about 180 hours, I stick by the message. It would just make a quality of life improvement, especially for those that are new to the game. The game shouldn't just be targetted at pros, but for everyone. Super fun game, love it, but the disorienting camera can just get frustrating. The gameplay is not about camera switching, its about driving cars.

[DieQuietly]

+1 to

Originally posted by Ranen:

Following suit, I would like to voice concern about the ball circle. The radius of the ball tracker is exponential, making it difficult to really know how high up the ball is when on car camera, and also giving some problem to a ball that is quickly elevating or falling. If it was a linear representation (100% radius while grounded, 0% when ceiling, 50% when mid-height, so on), it would be more reliable and easy to track where the ball is.

[BloodyRain2k]

Originally posted by Wonko the Sane:

Perhaps you'll also get used to it with time and practice.

Originally posted by Spawk:

You will get used to the camera modes eventually, even though it doesn't seem like it right now. Trust me, just keep at it.

That might be true, and it might be kinda happening as I'm missing the ball less while it's on the wall but I still miss it a LOT.
And even if I am starting to adjust to it does that still not reason that it's so unintuitive by default :o
There are so many camera settings yet none helped with this and swivel for example doesn't even seem to do anything at all for the track cam. Atleast did I not notice anything.
First time playing I was hoping that'd be the setting to limit the angle between camera and "ground" in relation to the car, as in how much the camera would roll when you're on the walls.

[TommyEV]

Originally posted by BloodyRain2k:

When the ball is above me I can't even tell anymore which direction I am facing or if my wheels are even on the ground, and when I'm on walls my orientation just goes bye bye...

But it is supposed to be hard, not being able if the ball is above but a little ahead or behind yu, for example. Same goes for walls.
it gets better

[0Dd1]

I started to use the ball cam at maybe 400hrs of gameplay. Before that it was just too hard to handle for me and also unnecessary. But then you'll realize it's fine as it is.

I can recommend to use three displays for a better overview.

[Ranen]

Originally posted by Hovercat:

I started to use the ball cam at maybe 400hrs of gameplay. Before that it was just too hard to handle for me and also unnecessary. But then you'll realize it's fine as it is.

I can recommend to use three displays for a better overview.

One should not need three displays to play a game designed for one.

Originally posted by TommyEV:

Originally posted by BloodyRain2k:

When the ball is above me I can't even tell anymore which direction I am facing or if my wheels are even on the ground, and when I'm on walls my orientation just goes bye bye...

But it is supposed to be hard, not being able if the ball is above but a little ahead or behind yu, for example. Same goes for walls.
it gets better

Camera controls should not be the reason a game is difficult. I thought the gaming community should have learned that by now from Legend of Zelda OoT. If there was no camera at all, no display, no visual component, but the game's focus on gameplay was to play soccer with cars... sure you could get used to playing with no visuals with enough time, but that doesn't make it a good mechanic.

I'm not saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE to be good at the game without improvements to camera diversity. What I'm saying is that making improvements would shift the difficulty focus from cruddy disorientation that, if you have ever played actual soccer, shouldn't happen, to skill execution for all levels of play.

With better cameras, this game would be great to play at parties with noobies. As it stands, my friends all just get annoyed at not being able to see the damned ball or where they are, interchangably. They aren't going to practice for 400 hours just to get the game. It's a casual play level... not a life choice or job.

That said, it'd likely not impact higher levels of play at all, and hell, they could just make the transition optional so that it doesn't impact anyone negatively if they don't want (not that I can see a situation where it would have negative impact).

[TommyEV]

I totally get what you mean but I think of reality, and when the ball is completely above you you either don't see it or see it but it does cost you more than looking just ahead.

[Ranen]

Originally posted by TommyEV:

I totally get what you mean but I think of reality, and when the ball is completely above you you either don't see it or see it but it does cost you more than looking just ahead.

Fortunately IRL we have the priviledge of an actually immersive environment, where it is easier to predict what is happening around us. Also, the advantage of a neck to look up and down with. We have the choice to track a soccerball in whatever manner we want IRL, as it is our heads. However, right-analog tracking, although sensitivity customizable, is very impractical in this game. All I'm saying is that there could be improvements to the camera system, and having experienced many hours of it, I won't be convinced, so I'll leave my point as is now.

[TommyEV]

Originally posted by Ranen:

so I'll leave my point as is now.

Sure, this is meant for discussion

[minsect]

I'd like a few extra options as well.
- full free look
- ball cam that would obey the camera pitch angle set in options
- free cam that keeps the yaw angle in air (would stay behind the car)
- probably useless but fun to try - 1st person cam, hard attach cam (like in replays)

[Ranen]

Originally posted by Spawk:

Originally posted by Ranen:

I don't mind being wrong as I find out the right answer.

Originally posted by Ranen:

I won't be convinced, so I'll leave my point as is

That's a bit of a contradiction.

I would agree, but you conveniently left out the rest of the context of that statement. "If there are any problems I didn't pick up, please voice them, I don't mind being wrong as I find out the right answer." I haven't found anyone stating problems with my ideas, just people who have problems with my problems. I HAVE gotten used to the camera, and I still don't like it. Look at the date for my original post: I have spent about a year thinking that the camera could use improvements and nothing has changed.

Originally posted by TommyEV:

Originally posted by Ranen:

so I'll leave my point as is now.

Sure, this is meant for discussion :happymeat:

Same as the other post: I don't mind counterpoints and discussion, that is the point here... but I don't see anyone raising counterpoints to my proposal, just people saying "the camera problem isn't a problem because pros can do it". This doesn't further discussion, its an argumental fallacy. All it does is try to lessen my argument, and that doesn't help anyone. I want to hear why my ideas are good or bad, not that I'm not experiencing what I am, as if someone knows the problems I have with this better than I do. I don't mean to come across rude, I just don't find any of the discussion thus far as constructive.

Originally posted by minsect:

I'd like a few extra options as well.
- full free look
- ball cam that would obey the camera pitch angle set in options
- free cam that keeps the yaw angle in air (would stay behind the car)
- probably useless but fun to try - 1st person cam, hard attach cam (like in replays)

Now this is constructive. I like your second idea best, say having a fixed height at halfway between floor and ceiling. That could work.

[TommyEV]

But you are the one with the burden of proof, not us. You say it's bad, we say it's not so bad, so you have to convince us, not the other way round.

As I said, I acknowledge what you mean but I think it is fine as it is and many people can do it, not "just pros", like you argued.