keeping a BERSERK! character alive?...

[Icedfate]

how do I accomplish this?
avoiding getting bit isn't the problem.
it's all the random events on the road.
eventually I inevitably get a random avent that just result in "you got hurt" and my berserker dies instantly with no way to avoid it.

I can understand making a game more challenging by having a character that dies in 1 hit (Lost in Binding of Isaac)
but if you make a character that isn't supposed to get hit and then put cheap forced unavoidable damage in there that basically just kills them, that's really unfair.

[Pixel Peeper]

Maślak ♪ eredeti hozzászólása:

Also if you see Witch - tell her to cool it, it's free speed boost

Well... if you ignore the whole "melting your flesh off of your bones" thing.

Which reduces your HP to 1... though I suppose, if you're a BERSERK! character with 1 HP already, it really is a free speed boost.

And a BERSERK! character with increased speed is pretty damn great in combat.

[Rocketcat Games]

Whoa, lot of discussion. I'm glad it kept mostly civil.

For events that reduce your max health to 1, you sometimes get a special message if you're BERSERK!

Design-wise, I just assume a Civilized or BERSERK! character won't live that long. "On paper", anyway. In practice, you can get through the game with them alive, especially a Civilized character. I just don't really care if RNG kills a BERSERK! character, or sends a Civilized character into a despair spiral.

Like people said, Big Bruiser helps, or a buddy with Paranoid. I may add more strategies here, too, or Berserker-like alternates that don't nuke your max health. An idea I had was a "Backed into Corner" Trait that didn't take away max health, but only gave you bonuses if you were hurt. So if you were healed up, you'd lose the bonuses.

The FIGHT THEM! bandit events just always does damage to you, so it's a health check. You'll either take 1 or 2 damage, 1 if playing on the easier difficulties. Some bandit types do only 1 damage, and I think one always does 2. Every bandit event has a couple extra options, made available if you have someone in the party with the right stats. Paranoid is really strong because there's a lot of anti-bandit checks for Paranoid characters.

Robbery results depend on who you're robbing, but generally you take a mix of health and morale damage from robbing someone that's armed (or likely to be armed, like an ammo seller), massive health damage from some (like the dog or chainsaw woman), and morale damage from most of the ones that aren't armed and ready to fight (medicine seller, gas for food trader, weapon buyer off top of head). The actual robber tends to get most of the damage, and also shrugs off morale damage in most cases.

The game's less RNG than it seems once you get used to everything. There's a lot of deterministic stuff disguised as pure RNG. The problem is learning the underlying rules, which can take awhile. I tried to keep a somewhat consistent in-universe logic for the checks, though.

I'd say we're more fair than (early) FTL or Isaac, though I actually haven't played Isaac past the second (I think?) DLC, so maybe they changed this in the re-release.

RNG wouldn't necessarily instant-kill you in Isaac (though you could get a bunch of near-impossible to avoid damage rooms in a row), but RNG could give you a completely weak character until you died of boredom. The D6 helped a ton with this, so once I got that I always just played as default Isaac.

[Regrettable Acts in 1 Step]

Rocketcat Games eredeti hozzászólása:

Whoa, lot of discussion. I'm glad it kept mostly civil.

For events that reduce your max health to 1, you sometimes get a special message if you're BERSERK!

Design-wise, I just assume a Civilized or BERSERK! character to live that long. "On paper", anyway. In practice, you can get through the game with them alive, especially a Civilized character. I just don't really care if RNG kills a BERSERK! character, or sends a Civilized character into a despair spiral.

Like people said, Big Bruiser helps, or a buddy with Paranoid. I may add more strategies here, too, or Berserker-like alternates that don't nuke your max health. An idea I had was a "Backed into Corner" Trait that didn't take away max health, but only gave you bonuses if you were hurt. So if you were healed up, you'd lose the bonuses.

The FIGHT THEM! bandit events just always does damage to you, so it's a health check. You'll either take 1 or 2 damage, 1 if playing on the easier difficulties. Some bandit types do only 1 damage, and I think one always does 2. Every bandit event has a couple extra options, made available if you have someone in the party with the right stats. Paranoid is really strong because there's a lot of anti-bandit checks for Paranoid characters.

Robbery results depend on who you're robbing, but generally you take a mix of health and morale damage from robbing someone that's armed (or likely to be armed, like an ammo seller), massive health damage from some (like the dog or chainsaw woman), and morale damage from most of the ones that aren't armed and ready to fight (medicine seller, gas for food trader, weapon buyer off top of head). The actual robber tends to get most of the damage, and also shrugs off morale damage in most cases.

The game's less RNG than it seems once you get used to everything. There's a lot of deterministic stuff disguised as pure RNG. The problem is learning the underlying rules, which can take awhile. I tried to keep a somewhat consistent in-universe logic for the checks, though.

I'd say we're more fair than (early) FTL or Isaac, though I actually haven't played Isaac past the second (I think?) DLC, so maybe they changed this in the re-release.

RNG wouldn't necessarily instant-kill you in Isaac (though you could get a bunch of near-impossible to avoid damage rooms in a row), but RNG could give you a completely weak character until you died of boredom. The D6 helped a ton with this, so once I got that I always just played as default Isaac.

Tbh, the game has little to no RNG once you use Paranoid, and know how to deal with an event.

[Icedfate]

thanks, a lot of insight there.

I don't want to wake this up again, but Isaac is not as RNG as people think it is either.
yeah, there's the occasional run where you find a bunch of crappy items, but most runs have a seam somewhere that if you can find it, you can breakthorugh and save the run. either by finding an odd combination of stuff or getting a lucky red chest with a guppy item or getting that last coin you needed to buy that thing from the shop.

yeah it's luck, but most runs can be won with enough tenacity.

there are a few ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ dmaage rooms in Isaac, but most of them have been patched out. there are very few unfair unavoidable damage situations in Isaac which is why I made that original comparison.
I don't mind taking damage in a game, if the damage can be recovered later. it's when a character that isn't allowed to take damage is put into a game where it's next to impossible to avoid damage and then you have to somehow do it without taking damage that's unfair.



now this game...what's really frustrating me right now is that 99% of the time, I get through the first 14 days.
getting to the end is not that hard.

the only really challenging part comes at the very end.
its getting there that's becoming a real slough through, and I can't tell if the run is bad or not until the very end, because of how you can suddenly turn around and pull a win out of your ass.

the problem is that it takes 1 1/2 - 2 hours to get through only to find myself in an unwinnable situation, or I make a less than flawless execution of a mistake and bam, it all just ends. 1hp, 2 hp, 3hp, doesn't really make much difference, if you get swarmed, you're frigging dead.

at least in Isaac, a run is usually between 30-60 minutes and I can mostly determine in the first 10 minutes whether it's worth continuing a run or if it's better to save myself the stress and start over.


but thats procedural generation for you.
I mean, if someone thinks that having to replay a procedural generated game multiple times to win is bad design.and they don't like a game like Boi, that's their prerogative, I just hope people aren't hating on games based on false assumptions.


p.s.
I just learned the hard way...not to tell the chainsaw vendor to "cool it". . .sigh

[Rocketcat Games]

I remember Isaac runs being longer (especially due to the slot machine tedium), but like I said I haven't played the re-release. They've had 6 years or so of post-launch balancing so things likely changed.

I agree that about an hour is about the right time for these sorts of games. Death Road dips over that if you loot everything (which the game encourages). In the past I've pared this back in updates, but I'm mostly happy with the playtime for right at this moment. I may look at this again though, in the meantime there's always Short Trip Mode.

For the endgame, you don't actually need too much to survive it. At least on the lower difficulties (under EXTREME or MARATHON or so). A lot of it is figuring out the bare minimum you need for your "Ascension Kit".

I have notes somewhere on what I thought the minimum should be for testing. Not sure where I stashed those, but off top of head you're probably fine if you have two people, both with pistols and ammo, one of which is a decent meleer. Alternatively, you could do it with a trash stats group, if they all have guns and ammo. The City of Crushed Hopes is designed to give you the tools to survive, even if you get there with almost nothing.

I've put in more things to help with rescuing a dying group for the endgame, too. One of which is the now guaranteed Final Camp before Canada, which always has two recruits you can buy with food.

I'll keep looking at the balance for this and reading feedback, but I'm mostly happy with it all. I know I can do streak victories on the lower modes pretty much indefinitely, which I take as a clear sign that RNG isn't a huge factor in victory.

[Icedfate]

well, you are not mistaken, Isaac runs CAN drag a lot longer if you minmax and try to play all the slot machines and stuff.
I never play the slot machine or the shell game guy, because it's not worth it and it takes too long.
In the original flash based isaac game, the slot payouts were based on luck, but in rebirth, they are based on some other factor that I've never been able to figure out, and most of the time the payouts aren't worth the trouble.
I've had greed runs where I've broken the game exploiting item synergies to create lots and lots of items to guarantee a win and some have gone over 2 hours.
but if you play the game and ignore the slot machines, a typical run will last between 30-60 minutes.

I hope you are not overly offended by my criticism of this game. it's mainly just my first impressions.

I already have almost 40 hours in and only won. .4 times. most of my losses occur right at the very end, after I've already invested 2 hours of my time into it.

I don't think the final battle is "hard" so much as it is "easy to die", like one mistake, I misstep and a zombie grabs me and suddenly I'm stuck and I lose all my health.
or the computer a.i. which played flawlessly all the way there, suddenyl leeroy jenkins into the zombies and gets itself killed and I'm so dumbfounded that it throws me off my game and I lose.

I dunno, I can't even explain it, somehow I seem to lose almost every time and often I can't even figure out what I did wrong.

I think the 1.5 hour siege is harder than the 4 hour siege, in that tiny house and they just fill up the entire map and spill in on all sides and there's nowhere to run.

as rage induced as I get, I would hate for the game to be ruined by balance update because a couple of players (like me maybe?) complained it's too hard.

I dunno, I just watched some youtuber play through kepa mode, solo, only using kepa and I'm just like. wow, this guy always managed to lead the zombies in such a way that there was always a path to run around them and I can't figure out how to do that because they seem to scatter and spread out on me, flanking me leaving no spaces on the sides.

[Regrettable Acts in 1 Step]

FeMaiden eredeti hozzászólása:

well, you are not mistaken, Isaac runs CAN drag a lot longer if you minmax and try to play all the slot machines and stuff.
I never play the slot machine or the shell game guy, because it's not worth it and it takes too long.
In the original flash based isaac game, the slot payouts were based on luck, but in rebirth, they are based on some other factor that I've never been able to figure out, and most of the time the payouts aren't worth the trouble.
I've had greed runs where I've broken the game exploiting item synergies to create lots and lots of items to guarantee a win and some have gone over 2 hours.
but if you play the game and ignore the slot machines, a typical run will last between 30-60 minutes.

I hope you are not overly offended by my criticism of this game. it's mainly just my first impressions.

I already have almost 40 hours in and only won. .4 times. most of my losses occur right at the very end, after I've already invested 2 hours of my time into it.

I don't think the final battle is "hard" so much as it is "easy to die", like one mistake, I misstep and a zombie grabs me and suddenly I'm stuck and I lose all my health.
or the computer a.i. which played flawlessly all the way there, suddenyl leeroy jenkins into the zombies and gets itself killed and I'm so dumbfounded that it throws me off my game and I lose.

I dunno, I can't even explain it, somehow I seem to lose almost every time and often I can't even figure out what I did wrong.

I think the 1.5 hour siege is harder than the 4 hour siege, in that tiny house and they just fill up the entire map and spill in on all sides and there's nowhere to run.

as rage induced as I get, I would hate for the game to be ruined by balance update because a couple of players (like me maybe?) complained it's too hard.

I dunno, I just watched some youtuber play through kepa mode, solo, only using kepa and I'm just like. wow, this guy always managed to lead the zombies in such a way that there was always a path to run around them and I can't figure out how to do that because they seem to scatter and spread out on me, flanking me leaving no spaces on the sides.

True, since you can molly the small chokepoint on the Boulevard of Broken Dreams and watch it all burn.
Molly on an interior is... not a good idea, but its pretty good.

[Jeff]

ok
there is 1 way to win
git gud

[Icedfate]

fish astly eredeti hozzászólása:

ok
there is 1 way to win
git gud

classic.

you got me.

well played.

although, I find it hard to believe that you have 100% win rate on FTL with only 16 hours played. . .
I also find it dubious that you unlocked and beat it with every ship.

[Jeff]

FeMaiden eredeti hozzászólása:

fish astly eredeti hozzászólása:

ok
there is 1 way to win
git gud

classic.

you got me.

well played.

although, I find it hard to believe that you have 100% win rate on FTL with only 16 hours played. . .

lol
i dont play much ftl

[Regrettable Acts in 1 Step]

fish astly eredeti hozzászólása:

FeMaiden eredeti hozzászólása:

classic.

you got me.

well played.

although, I find it hard to believe that you have 100% win rate on FTL with only 16 hours played. . .

lol
i dont play much ftl

Probably on EZ.

[Jeff]

Skye_0bscur1ty eredeti hozzászólása:

fish astly eredeti hozzászólása:

lol
i dont play much ftl

Probably on EZ.

i havt won ever lol
i almost one once

[Icedfate]

fish astly eredeti hozzászólása:

FeMaiden eredeti hozzászólása:

classic.

you got me.

well played.

although, I find it hard to believe that you have 100% win rate on FTL with only 16 hours played. . .

lol
i dont play much ftl

I beleive you, it's just that you used it in an earlier argument, claiming that it's possible to get 100% win rate on FTL, but not possible on Isaac and that's why isaac sucks.

I have a 30 win streak on isaac as Eden and Eden starts off with randomized stats and randomized items, he is the most RNG based character ever, and yet I won 30 times in a row with him. how is that possible?

yeah, I'm not as good as the l33ts at FTL, I'm not even close to 100% win rate either. but I do beleive it, I've watced twitch users do it.

I've also watched a guy play WoW with 36 different accounts simultaneously and I read about some girl who played a dancing game for 6 days steaight...

just because it's possible doesn't mean that anyone can do it.


I LOVE FTL, it's one of my most favorite games but...
I find FTL to have a lot of RNG BS, I've had 2 mantis warriors port into my ship while playing as the engi cruiser that only starts out with one guy, on the very first jump.
I've run into a ship with 2 shields and a triple burst cannon on the first jump out the door and it immediately split it's shots such to disable my engines and my weapons before I could even do anything.

the only good thing about those runs is that they ended quickly.

pro tip :
I learned this one the hard way
never go into the fTL forums claiming it's "RNG based", they will dog pile on you like you just told them all to go ♥♥♥♥ their uncles.


p.s
you suggested enter the gungeon,I like how it looks, but I've been watching that game since forever waiting for a sale. . .

[Jeff]

if you ever use engi b not ironicly your bad at ftl
also that ♥♥♥♥ ship has anti personell drone

[Regrettable Acts in 1 Step]

fish astly eredeti hozzászólása:

if you ever use engi b not ironicly your bad at ftl
also that shit ship has anti personell drone

But Engi B is really nice tho :c